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GMS/EMS Should we Get Flames of Rebirth?

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  • JushiroNetJushiroNet
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    edited June 8
    I just wish they'd tell us why or actually discuss these decisions with players.

    But you know it's nexon so your suggestions go into the void and some strange masked create says ye or nay and we only find out when it's implemented.

    Just to be 100% clear I am most interested in the reasons why we don't have this system.
  • shavitshavit
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    edited June 9
    JushiroNet wrote: »
    I just wish they'd tell us why or actually discuss these decisions with players.

    But you know it's nexon so your suggestions go into the void and some strange masked create says ye or nay and we only find out when it's implemented.

    Just to be 100% clear I am most interested in the reasons why we don't have this system.

    There shouldn't be a reason behind it. If Nexon thinks it's less profitable than nebulites, why not just let us have both? And implement the Maple Points enhancements system that TMS has to profit even more while still giving the community what they want.
  • DoKingDoKing
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    edited June 10
    Arwoo did brush across it on the live stream which is good and there are discussions and monitoring. However, if we as a player base want to make our voice heard it would be wise to at least share this post with those around us so that more and more of us can reply to this thread to show how important it can be to us.
  • DaxterbeerDaxterbeer
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    edited July 24
    DoKing wrote: »
    Arwoo did brush across it on the live stream which is good and there are discussions and monitoring. However, if we as a player base want to make our voice heard it would be wise to at least share this post with those around us so that more and more of us can reply to this thread to show how important it can be to us.

    I've already tried Reddit, but I got some negative responses due to nagging and the timing being not right (V wasn't in effect yet when I started on Reddit.) Making another post on Reddit would certainly be suicidal. I don't think this thread will be any more visible outside the forums unless people started spreading this topic around to friends and other social platforms. I was seeing sparks of this conversation starting in the official Discord channel, but we still need more supporters such as players ranging from the casual to the extremely dedicated ones.



    We can only hope for other Mapler's support on this matter and if Nexon will even acknowledge this request.

    https://clips.twitch.tv/OilyPluckySmoothieDancingBanana

    This dude's items are older than the Unlimited update. Maybe that is why he could spam boss flames. There is also the Silent Crusade Belt that he has in his inventory.
  • PhantomMasterThiefPhantomMasterThief
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    edited September 30
    Bumping up Ye old topic, but seriously we need this it will help to achive damage for F2P Players as well, and not having to rely on P2W Nebulites.
  • ZephyrusSpringZephyrusSpring
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    edited September 30
    Oh god this topic just doesn't go away. How many times do I have to say it, adding new powerup systems is what creates the power gap in the first place. It doesn't matter how easy it is to take advantage of, power players will always make better use of it than poor players. And if it really is so mindlessly easy, why bother at all? Shifting everything up a notch doesn't solve any problems because at some point they'll release a boss that's even stronger, or rework an existing boss a la Zakum. People are at a stage now in GMS where they can solo normal Lucid with plenty of time left. If it really is impossible to beat hard lucid in GMS then surely we're not far off.

    If you want to protest for anything, protest for more ways to earn cubes.
  • PhantomMasterThiefPhantomMasterThief
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    edited September 30
    Oh god this topic just doesn't go away. How many times do I have to say it, adding new powerup systems is what creates the power gap in the first place. It doesn't matter how easy it is to take advantage of, power players will always make better use of it than poor players. And if it really is so mindlessly easy, why bother at all? Shifting everything up a notch doesn't solve any problems because at some point they'll release a boss that's even stronger, or rework an existing boss a la Zakum. People are at a stage now in GMS where they can solo normal Lucid with plenty of time left. If it really is impossible to beat hard lucid in GMS then surely we're not far off.

    If you want to protest for anything, protest for more ways to earn cubes.

    if anything the nebulites are what makes the power players stronger and the weaker players weaker, we need flames so that the weaker players could become stronger without relying on the stronger playres selling or approving of that.

    other versions of maple story have flames and they seem fine. (even ems had flames before they merged with us) and all of the content is a copy paste from kms.

    if you like it or not we need more power, because nexon korea won't change the bosses just for gms, so just deal with it. it's KMS>All other versions.

    we were supposed to get flames instead of nebulites but some players cried because of the 10 psok restriction, so we got nebs i hope those players are at least happy.



    we need flames so that F2P players will have a much greater chance at trying out end game content without relying on stronger players as much.

    Nebulites = P2W,not optainable from any events, or rewards. and if you want to remove a neb from an item you have to pay real money, and pay real money for a chance to tier up a rank, as well as a tier down in rank.

    Flames of rebirth = F2P, You can craft flames, and they even come from the event shops. can use unlimited nuber of flames per item without having to spend real money.

    now flames aren't the best of the best, yes they are rng , you can use 1 and get the best stats or 100 and get trash, but at least you can reuse one without having to buy an item from the cash shop

    So tell me what's better?

    A. P2W Nebulites

    B. F2P Flames that you craft, get from events.

    pretty much all of the chaos scroll of goodness rewards from gms, are a replace for not having flames, kms/other versions get's flames, yea the best ones ( etrenal ) as well as the second best ones powerfull, from monster collction and events.

    tell some other ways to get [A] Nebulites besides spending real money, or buying from someone?

    (i know gms had the Maplehood watch event but that's not a replace to not having nebulites from monster collection/other events/rewards)

    Pretty much it's KMS translated to english, and we need to adapt to that, because they won't go out of there way and decrease the bosses hp and overall power creep.

    that's why we need more power becuase if not then we can't do end game content, and f2p player are getting hurt even more.


  • ZephyrusSpringZephyrusSpring
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    edited September 30
    As is the norm with this topic, I can sum up your reasoning with 4 words: "I want moar damage!". As is also the norm, you have failed to touch on the fact that stronger players will get stronger than weaker players will. And the third typical pinch point is that you have correctly identified that nebulites are in a sorry state but have failed to even mention improving them.

    The end game bosses are balanced around end game equipment. Adding new power up systems as alternates to existing ones only shifts the end game further away. Short term gain until the next even stronger boss comes out that you'll need AO and nebs to beat.

    How much further does the bar have to rise before Horntail goes the way of Zakum? They just finished Papulatus, maybe it's already being worked on. If you want to close the gap then look to existing systems. More cubes, fix nebulites, open bpot to f2p.
  • OccireOccire
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    edited September 30
    And the third typical pinch point is that you have correctly identified that nebulites are in a sorry state but have failed to even mention improving them.

    Short term gain until the next even stronger boss comes out that you'll need AO and nebs to beat.

    We will never have a boss that you need nebs and AO to beat. We are the only server with this kind of nebulite system. It was short sighted to add them in the first place, and it quickly degraded from this neat idea where you could find and use specific nebulites on your equips when it was announced to another paywalled upgrading system. Hell, our hopes were dashed before it even launched, when extractions revealed the existence of the nebulite box and alien cubes, and after the patch, we quickly found out that you could only get one B rank nebulite from boxes per day, and then they hugely decreased the drop rate of nebulite boxes. The only other server with nebulites is CMS, and you can only put them in the alien themed equips or one anniversary face accessory. There is almost no chance they will ever do anything about nebulites, they haven't so far and no other servers have this problem, and hence, wouldn't do anything to solve it, so what's the point of supporting this stagnant system? Why not just get rid of them and replace them with additional options?

    Additional options provide variety in equipment. For newer and weaker players, this means you can pick up equips that will be useful, you don't just have to basically use the same equips until you get a CRA set. This mean there's some point in getting new equips, every CRA hat won't be the same as every other CRA hat and there'd be a difference in market value. Accessory Crafting would receive the ability to craft flames, giving players the ability to change their options, and hopefully, but not likely, make some money by selling flames (most likely via service, I suppose, if they make them like our crafted cubes).

    Additional Options are freely available to everyone, unlike nebulites, where the only options are to gamble or dish out billions of mesos. Flames are not the only way to change them. You can hunt for new equips, you can fuse equips with alchemy to get a new equip with different additional options. Given that weaker players probably have equips that they could more easily replace, like with epic potentials, which, with transfer hammer and occult cubes, makes it easier than ever to replace, it's much more viable for them to hunt for new equips or fuse for them, while stronger players would probably just want to flame their already created equips.
    PhantomMasterThiefDaxterbeer
  • ZephyrusSpringZephyrusSpring
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    edited September 30
    Save me the spiel about AO I've heard it a thousand times. Players are capable of soloing normal Lucid without AO in 17 minutes. Do you understand? GMS is already on the cusp of defeating hard lucid without AO. The small power boost from AO is not needed in the current state of the game. Luna players defeated hard lucid last month before Arcana came out and their gear wasn't even fully maxed out (half their gear didn't even have flames and their tyrant gear only had ~7 stars). Look at the gear breakdown someone did on reddit. That user speculated that it was already possible for GMS players to defeat hard lucid back then. The reason it hasn't already happened is likely because GMS players are split across so many different servers and a similar team comp of maxed characters simply doesn't exist all in one server. Now that arcana is out and 540 AF is achievable I imagine we'll see a team of 80% max-geared players down her soon.

    We don't need more power. The hardest boss in the game can be defeated without flames so there's no need for them. GMS players are only marginally weaker than KMS players, if at all. Kannas make mages do big numbers. What we do need is for it to be easier (or possible at all) to get that last 20% gearing. Hell making it easier to get to 40% gearing would be a positive change. Once you get 6% stat on all your stuff your progression takes a nose dive. We need more cubes and access to nebs and bpot, not AO.
  • OccireOccire
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    edited September 30
    And yet you focus on the damage aspects of additional options? There are a lot more positives to them than just the increased damage and it's a hell of a lot better system than nebulites are, so why should we bother trying to improve nebulites? It's already very clear that they'll never be as well supported as additional options are.

    Explain to me how nebulites are better than additional options, explain to me how it's great to have completely average equips, explain to me what point there is to buy or sell new equips if everyone already has the best base equip they could possibly be. Explain to me how nebulites could even come close to creating the market that additional options can.

    We don't need nebs if they're not going to put the effort into creating a good nebulite system. Get rid of them and bring over additional options. That's the best possible nebulite revamp. We lose this RNG paywall system and get a completely free system supported by KMS. You want a good way to progress after 6% stat? Additional options are it.

    The fact that some of us can do things with the cobbled together mess of systems we have doesn't mean it's fine the way it is.
  • DaxterbeerDaxterbeer
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    edited September 30
    Save me the spiel about AO I've heard it a thousand times. Players are capable of soloing normal Lucid without AO in 17 minutes. Do you understand? GMS is already on the cusp of defeating hard lucid without AO. The small power boost from AO is not needed in the current state of the game. Luna players defeated hard lucid last month before Arcana came out and their gear wasn't even fully maxed out (half their gear didn't even have flames and their tyrant gear only had ~7 stars). Look at the gear breakdown someone did on reddit. That user speculated that it was already possible for GMS players to defeat hard lucid back then. The reason it hasn't already happened is likely because GMS players are split across so many different servers and a similar team comp of maxed characters simply doesn't exist all in one server. Now that arcana is out and 540 AF is achievable I imagine we'll see a team of 80% max-geared players down her soon.

    We don't need more power. The hardest boss in the game can be defeated without flames so there's no need for them. GMS players are only marginally weaker than KMS players, if at all. Kannas make mages do big numbers. What we do need is for it to be easier (or possible at all) to get that last 20% gearing. Hell making it easier to get to 40% gearing would be a positive change. Once you get 6% stat on all your stuff your progression takes a nose dive. We need more cubes and access to nebs and bpot, not AO.

    Almost every suggestion that improves F2P damage will also benefit whales as well. It is absolutely absurd to think that we don't deserve additional options just because there are 20 Lucid soloists in the game. They got there mainly from scrolling and cubing perfection. I don't want to hear more about GMS being more than capable of doing endgame bosses just because a few Youtubers showed off their damage or someone did some calculations assuming someone splurged for 40% stat per equip. I don't think players would splurge just to kill Hard Lucid or other bosses.

    Damage gain is not the important note on the system. I don't really care about damage gains, at least for my main, but I am more interested in Accessory Crafting and the popularity of other content. Flames came with new content as well as some overhauled content. These included, but not limited to Dojo, Ursu, Kritias, and Legion Shops. Legion is already being used and players are competing in Dojo for gloves, honor and star dummies and there are teams going to kill Ursu. Players already taking advantage of these opportunities will feel their effects immediately if flames do come to GMS. The more unused content so far include Kritias and Accessory Crafting.

    z3ssJG8.png

    bm3otzolp5sy.png

    scroll-decomposer.gif?w=179&zoom=2

    Crafting flames was suppose to a specialty of Accessory Crafters during the RED Update. Without Flame Crafting, mediocre Meister Accessories are the only impressive thing they could make (their accessories are being beaten my Gollux and Absolab Accessories.) A lot of crafting materials in the second image are unused. Mana crystals and spell essence were suppose to be an ingredient in making flames, but without the system in place, there is almost no use or market for them. Scroll Extractors from Alchemists are also a tool needed to extract flames, scrolls and recipes for materials. Two professions would benefit from having flames implemented to the system.

    kritias-shop1.png

    Kritias Shop as of now is only good for gloves and resets unless you are stupid like me back a few months ago when I bought the Kritias set items. Kritias would become more active if flames were introduced because the shop contains the most important part of the flame (the unrelenting and forever unrelenting flames.) These materials are similar to how Master Cubes and Meister Cubes are different because they use different cubing blades, but with similar ingredients.

    I know you want to focus on other ways on improving damage such as cube and bonus potential availability for free to plays and I totally agree with that, but I am against your idea of thinking we don't need a new way of improving range because a few whales made the impossible possible.




  • PhantomMasterThiefPhantomMasterThief
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    edited September 30
    Save me the spiel about AO I've heard it a thousand times. Players are capable of soloing normal Lucid without AO in 17 minutes. Do you understand? GMS is already on the cusp of defeating hard lucid without AO. The small power boost from AO is not needed in the current state of the game. Luna players defeated hard lucid last month before Arcana came out and their gear wasn't even fully maxed out (half their gear didn't even have flames and their tyrant gear only had ~7 stars). Look at the gear breakdown someone did on reddit. That user speculated that it was already possible for GMS players to defeat hard lucid back then. The reason it hasn't already happened is likely because GMS players are split across so many different servers and a similar team comp of maxed characters simply doesn't exist all in one server. Now that arcana is out and 540 AF is achievable I imagine we'll see a team of 80% max-geared players down her soon.

    We don't need more power. The hardest boss in the game can be defeated without flames so there's no need for them. GMS players are only marginally weaker than KMS players, if at all. Kannas make mages do big numbers. What we do need is for it to be easier (or possible at all) to get that last 20% gearing. Hell making it easier to get to 40% gearing would be a positive change. Once you get 6% stat on all your stuff your progression takes a nose dive. We need more cubes and access to nebs and bpot, not AO.

    This topic won't go away, beacuse nexon thinks they can milk us from our money.

    did you know that in kms they can actually buy cubes and bonus cubes,and pets with reward points from the cash shop, not some special reward points shop. and they can buy it as manny times as they want the only restriction is how much reward points they can get.

    we don't even have bonus potential cubes in the reward shops, we don't have pets in the reward shops etc.....

    we are sick of P2W content, i mean why nebulites aren't in event shops/craftable/monster collection.

    flames are free from: event shops,monster collection, each and every event in kms gives out flames.

    the only way to get nebulites without spening real life money, is to buy from someone on the free market or auction house.
  • HaltishPowerHaltishPower
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    edited September 30

    This topic won't go away, beacuse nexon thinks they can milk us from our money.

    did you know that in kms they can actually buy cubes and bonus cubes,and pets with reward points from the cash shop, not some special reward points shop. and they can buy it as manny times as they want the only restriction is how much reward points they can get.

    we don't even have bonus potential cubes in the reward shops, we don't have pets in the reward shops etc.....

    we are sick of P2W content, i mean why nebulites aren't in event shops/craftable/monster collection.

    flames are free from: event shops,monster collection, each and every event in kms gives out flames.

    the only way to get nebulites without spening real life money, is to buy from someone on the free market or auction house.


    The only P2W aspect that really really makes me angry is this one -> not a single way to obtain bonus potential cubes without a bunch of NX. (Buying it with MaplePoints from the MesoMarket is a joke).
    The others you are talking about i can handle. I always though about reward points should be use in the regular shop, didn't know that KMS has it, funny thing.
  • OccireOccire
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    edited October 1
    You can't buy cubes and bonus pot cubes in KMS completely with reward points (mileage). Pets sure, clothes sure, but you can only get 7 red cubes and 1 psok from their mileage shop per month.

    The big difference is that their economy is much better, it's not overrun with mesos, so it's much more viable to use Meso Market to get Maple Points or even buy cubes directly from the FM or Auction House, given that they have full trading of cash items.
  • ZephyrusSpringZephyrusSpring
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    edited October 1
    @Occire I want to see nebs gone too. And potentials, bpot, scrolling, inner ability, legion, link skills, etc. This game is an absolute mess of systems with a single build path: damage. None of it can be removed because people spent money on it in one way or another. Do you understand? Your whole train of thought is based on an impossibility. The best they can do is release servers like reboot where these things don't exist, or trivialise/make free the method to obtain them. Unless you want to explain to an angry mob why their investment was deleted?

    In your "explain to me" section you have brought up a topic that is too large for a single post. A level playing field for gear. I urge you to look at games like guild wars and Warframe, where gear upgrading is limited and the main focus is on your build instead. Guild wars especially has a much stronger economy because it's easy to put a value on things when everything is roughly the same. Maple has tried to do that by showing how much an item will increase your range, but players still have to weigh how expensive it will be to upgrade the item. Also as I recall AO doesn't have a market because nothing is tradable.

    @Dax I commend you for trying to fix the crafting system, but riddle me this: What if crafters made nebs instead? You have absolutely the wrong view about gear balance. It's easy to get swept up in the power creep but if other players can reach certain heights then so can you. The question is whether you have to pay for it or not. Adding a new system only raises the bar, free players will still be behind.

    @Phantom I'm very well aware of Nexon NA's greed. As long as people keep paying thousands every month they won't change a thing. Believe me I've been lobbying for them to fix nebs for years.
  • OccireOccire
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    edited October 1
    Your whole train of thought is based on an impossibility. The best they can do is release servers like reboot where these things don't exist, or trivialise/make free the method to obtain them. Unless you want to explain to an angry mob why their investment was deleted?

    Also as I recall AO doesn't have a market because nothing is tradable.

    It's not impossible to remove systems and compensate players, and it's not without precedent. Just look at the changes they had to make for the EMS merge. My gear is almost fully nebbed with 3% and 4% STR and all stats nebs, and I wouldn't mind for a second if they disappeared and we got additional options, even without compensation.

    It's not more that much more difficult to put value on things which vary from the norm, for years that was the law in the land in Maple. There was no question on the value of 2atk vs 3atk vs 4atk PACs for example. Because of this, weaker players could afford a 2atk PAC, while stronger players could go for the 4atk. As you upgrade, you had a market to sell your old items to, when all items are the same, after making marginal upgrades, all you can really do is sell to someone who's only slightly worse than you. This creates a huge gap where good items have little chance of moving from the strongest players to the weakest players. Likewise, the equips weaker players have are basically worthless, so they don't stand a chance of selling them to make money for better items. There's a distinct a lack of gradual progression, just clusters of weak and strong. Sure it might work in other games, but with the upgrade systems in place in Maple, it is not a good system to have.

    And you recall wrong. Additional options are just an extension of the previous stat variance system. All items which are 130 and lower are fully tradeable and naturally have additional stats. Using flames on them will cause them to become untradeable, however that is not necessary, hunt for new items, fuse old items, you get your new additional options and your gear stays tradeable. All items which are 140 and over have 10 scissor counts applied and are tradeable until equipped. For items which became untradeable, but don't require normal scissors of karma or platinum, you can buy silver scissors for 20m in NPC shops to trade once they've become untradeable. This doesn't seem to have been a problem in KMS so far, but other servers have adapted a system with slightly weaker stats, but no new restrictions on tradeability, no reason we couldn't as well.
  • DaxterbeerDaxterbeer
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    edited October 1
    Occire wrote: »
    Your whole train of thought is based on an impossibility. The best they can do is release servers like reboot where these things don't exist, or trivialise/make free the method to obtain them. Unless you want to explain to an angry mob why their investment was deleted?

    Also as I recall AO doesn't have a market because nothing is tradable.

    It's not impossible to remove systems and compensate players, and it's not without precedent. Just look at the changes they had to make for the EMS merge. My gear is almost fully nebbed with 3% and 4% STR and all stats nebs, and I wouldn't mind for a second if they disappeared and we got additional options, even without compensation.

    It's not more that much more difficult to put value on things which vary from the norm, for years that was the law in the land in Maple. There was no question on the value of 2atk vs 3atk vs 4atk PACs for example. Because of this, weaker players could afford a 2atk PAC, while stronger players could go for the 4atk. As you upgrade, you had a market to sell your old items to, when all items are the same, after making marginal upgrades, all you can really do is sell to someone who's only slightly worse than you. This creates a huge gap where good items have little chance of moving from the strongest players to the weakest players. Likewise, the equips weaker players have are basically worthless, so they don't stand a chance of selling them to make money for better items. There's a distinct a lack of gradual progression, just clusters of weak and strong. Sure it might work in other games, but with the upgrade systems in place in Maple, it is not a good system to have.

    And you recall wrong. Additional options are just an extension of the previous stat variance system. All items which are 130 and lower are fully tradeable and naturally have additional stats. Using flames on them will cause them to become untradeable, however that is not necessary, hunt for new items, fuse old items, you get your new additional options and your gear stays tradeable. All items which are 140 and over have 10 scissor counts applied and are tradeable until equipped. For items which became untradeable, but don't require normal scissors of karma or platinum, you can buy silver scissors for 20m in NPC shops to trade once they've become untradeable. This doesn't seem to have been a problem in KMS so far, but other servers have adapted a system with slightly weaker stats, but no new restrictions on tradeability, no reason we couldn't as well.

    I wouldn't mind the slightly nerfed version of flames if GMS has a problem with scissor count.

    @Zephyrus, Why sure? If we could craft Nebulites, our Setup Inventory would look like this:

    maxresdefault.jpg

    I am not a fan of having my Setup inventory being overtaken by rocks that don't stack because they are not similar. It clashes with my chair collection and getting a B means you are stuck until you have a ticket.

    What if we have fusion tickets added?

    Nexon would give us a monthly limit of 5 or 2 and we would use them up quickly and we won't be able to fuse for the rest of the month.

    What if we didn't have monthly limit on RP shop items?

    We would still be stuck fusing Nebulites and getting $%^ed results when we could be using our RP on other things.
    Also as I recall AO doesn't have a market because nothing is tradable.

    Meister Cubes and Master Cubes aren't tradable either, but the cube fragments and cubic blades are as well as item crystals. Players would sell Unrelenting Flames, rebirth fragments and FINALLY spell essence.
  • ZephyrusSpringZephyrusSpring
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    edited October 1
    Occire wrote: »
    It's not impossible to remove systems and compensate players, and it's not without precedent. Just look at the changes they had to make for the EMS merge. My gear is almost fully nebbed with 3% and 4% STR and all stats nebs, and I wouldn't mind for a second if they disappeared and we got additional options, even without compensation.
    You might be totally okay with it, but I guarantee others won't be, especially those who spent NX on their nebs.
    Occire wrote: »
    It's not that much more difficult to put value on things which vary from the norm, for years that was the law in the land in Maple. There was no question on the value of 2atk vs 3atk vs 4atk PACs for example. Because of this, weaker players could afford a 2atk PAC, while stronger players could go for the 4atk. As you upgrade, you had a market to sell your old items to, when all items are the same, after making marginal upgrades, all you can really do is sell to someone who's only slightly worse than you. This creates a huge gap where good items have little chance of moving from the strongest players to the weakest players. Likewise, the equips weaker players have are basically worthless, so they don't stand a chance of selling them to make money for better items. There's a distinct a lack of gradual progression, just clusters of weak and strong. Sure it might work in other games, but with the upgrade systems in place in Maple, it is not a good system to have.

    The 2atk PACs were cheaper because they got unlucky with their scrolling. They never had any hope of getting any stronger. You sold it down to the next schmuck and bought a better one. But of course back then the difference between the items wasn't a big deal. You could still defeat end game bosses with the 2atk PAC. The disparity you're describing already happens in our economy. Buyers know that upgrading a potential means gambling away whatever stats it had initially, but sellers still want you to pay for the 9% stat they rolled. Weak players already have no chance of selling anything they have, because the only things they have can be obtained from events for little to no effort. Progressing beyond that is where the money is, but it's extremely slow as a F2P. The best way to make money as a weak player is, like Dax said, to sell crafting materials. Every new upgrade system compounds on the last. You can put in the effort to get yourself a clean set of fafnir, but it'll only give you about 50k range. 3% stat from a potential is nice, but combining it with the 50 raw stat you get from starring each equip makes it's a lot more valuable. That will only compound again with AO. The weak players fall behind while the strong get stronger, further reducing the value of weak gear.

    You're forgetting where flames come from. How strong does a party of 6 need to be to defeat empress? What about normal magnus? These are the only ways to get level 140 flames for pensalir gear. Otherwise you have to buy them from other players, and if weak players had the money to do that they wouldn't be weak players. Players will still have to gear up using the current systems like potential and arcane force in order to be strong enough to kill the bosses that drop the flames they need. And tough luck for the people who spent the effort to get SW/absolab/arcane gear huh? They'll all be at the mercy of the accessory crafters. As it stands the AO system is heavily skewed in favour of the already strong players. It's just another line of potential really.

    How can you guys be so optimistic that Nexon will implement the perfect version of AO but so pessimistic about every alternative action? You can't have it both ways.
  • OccireOccire
    Reactions: 920
    Posts: 54
    Member, Private Tester
    edited October 1
    I'm no stranger to spending NX on nebulites either and I can understand the anger of losing items you work hard on, hell, I got tired of the constant upgrades that Maple has pushed in the past, like when I spent $99 on the 11 pack of shielding wards (when they were 11k each and the package was a good deal, before they were reduced to 5.5k, in line with KMS) to get my Empress axe to a measly 8 stars, Star Force certainly made that a huge waste, but Star Force is ultimately better than the old enhancing system, and same as that, this is a change that is ultimately more positive than sticking with nebulites and foregoing additional options.

    And the disparity I'm describing exists in our economy today because I'm am describing exactly our economy today, but I'm posing additional options as a way to lessen the gap. There's no way a person who suddenly becomes able to do CRA would have any advantage to selling a piece of CRA gear over the people who have been doing it forever and ever unless there was some variance in the equipment people are selling. Additional options give people a better chance to make some money. It's not a complete solution, however, because the reason KMS can have such a nice gradual gradation between equips of different stats is also because overall, their meso is stronger than ours. It's much more viable for a KMS player to win it big in the game of clean equips because the cost gap between the low end and wide end is much smaller. But getting into reducing botting and add huge, viable meso sinks is just another bucket of worms entirely.

    Flames are not the only way to way to change additional options. You can fuse items and you can hunt for new ones, both of which are much more viable for weaker players than people who have almost completed gears. Fusing Pensalirs for additional options, or any equipment set, really, and transfer hammering up some epic potentials, even epic bonus potentials from low level equips, also from fusing, is a viable upgrading path in KMS, while I certainly can't say the same for us. Do you think it's more likely for a poor player to be at the mercy of accessory crafters when they can still fuse new gear, or the people with primed CRA equips that would be a pain to rescroll, where flames are the only path for them?

    You know what flames from bosses are good for? Disassembling for crafting materials. You can't flame items that came into existence after additional options became a thing, and even though we never got additional options at the time, the restriction came into effect when Unleashed hit. You can see what items you can flame vs what you can't via the semi-transparent flame icon (can flame) or white dot (can't flame) present on the equip's picture on its tooltip. Most of our gear can only be flamed via the crafted flames, which of course, come from accessory crafting, or, you know, the tons of event shops, attendance events, or just various giveaways they have for them in KMS (another key difference between additional options and nebulites). Flames are not as rare as you seem to think they are, nor are they completely out of the reach of the hands of poor players, again, as you seem to think they are.

    I can be optimistic about flames because it comes from KMS and they've supported the system for the last 5 years, while nebulites have sucked for the last 6 years, there is a very clear distinction between the level of support Nexon has for each system. The one big change to nebulites is having tradeable fusion tickets added to gachapon, which, fat chance having weaker players afford that, especially when nebulites are the last thing they should be thinking about. History has proven one choice is clearly better than the other. The fact is, whatever differs from KMS, no matter how much we may like it, will end up neglected and unchanged. It's seems especially certain for things only we have, not present in other servers, for example, our version of nebulites. Then there are the things which eventually become what KMS has, like the boss HP changes which one of the producers at the time, Girasol, swore we wouldn't get, but we did, without additional options to give us a boost for handling it, or our custom Luminous, Angelic Buster, and Kaiser. For game systems, sticking to things KMS does is best.

    Likewise, how can you be so adamantly against the system when you've demonstrated such a lack of understanding of it. It's like you said before, "Save me the spiel about AO I've heard it a thousand times", a lot of your arguments have been against some version of additional options that you've built up in your head as how they will be, despite the drastic difference between how they've actually been in the versions which do have them, which I too have heard a thousand times. I'll admit that I don't know how they would implement additional options, but I'm confident it'll be between the two implementations they've already done so far, but you should also admit that you too don't know the effects additional options would have, nor how they would be implemented. Why assume the worst case about the widening gap when there are already cases of additional options in action where you can see what the effects were?

    Oh, there also exists the possibility of "the darkest timeline", additional options plus the cash based Black Flames, which are NX flames that let you choose between before and after flames. They're fairly cheap, so either we go with them, or you know, it wouldn't be the first time players use the power of outrage to deny a cash based advantage into the game (though, this would be outside of Reboot, for the first time)
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