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[Boss Design] Horntail/Pink Bean

FuhreakFuhreak
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edited October 11 in Suggestions, Feedback, and Requests
Awhile ago Zakum got a boss rework to make him less "relic of old MapleStory" ish.
His boss fight actually requires a little bit of skill (not much but it's still there) and all of his attacks are dodgeable.

Horntail/Pink Bean on the other hand still follow this very old MS mentality of "Throw constant crap at the player until they die."
The point of these bosses feels less of a mix of skill/DPS check, and entirely just DPS check.
Both of these bosses constantly spam 1/1 attacks (Reduce HP/MP to 1) and are constantly using stunlock as well.
Damage Reflect is a minor annoyance but with a redesign it could work. The rest of this disruption style of boss needs to go.

It is probably not high up on Nexon's list of things to do, but given that Anna just mentioned in our memo that they "reviewed old content that needed to be updated"
This feels like a good time to bring it up.

Comments

  • AKradianAKradian
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    edited October 11
    I'm sure you know that what Anna said only applies to GMS-exclusive content.
    Horntail and Pink Bean are KMS content.
    Horntail recently got a death count. I believe that is the developers' only acknowledgement of its rng-dependent design, and they don't intend to revamp it any further in the foreseeable future.
  • DaxterbeerDaxterbeer
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    edited October 11
    GMS does have some poorly designed content such as the Blackgate area. These is hardly a story or end reward for doing the quests. It is basically a color swapped Kritias (not in GMS yet) with mobs from Zipangu and Far East also recolored. The change channel there is wonky as you are warped to the incorrect map.

    For things that are non-KMS, but in other versions, I would like to see Gollux get a restock. Commerci and use that Sweetwater shop we have been dreaming about. Other content that could be worth porting over is TMS's Nightmarket and other world tour areas as well as MSEA's version of Singapore (still better than having no Singapore.)

  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited October 11
    AKradian wrote: »
    I'm sure you know that what Anna said only applies to GMS-exclusive content.
    Horntail and Pink Bean are KMS content.
    Horntail recently got a death count. I believe that is the developers' only acknowledgement of its rng-dependent design, and they don't intend to revamp it any further in the foreseeable future.

    Irrelevant. These bosses still need a redesign and it's still worth mentioning.
    HuskyDM
  • HuskyDMHuskyDM
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    edited October 12
    Pink Bean could get less of that "you get hit haha" stuff but the battle itself can remain mostly similar.

    Horntail however could get a full redesign making him a lot more threatening and entertaining. Its incredible how Papalatus, a random meh boss from a very unimportant area in the game got the full Zakum redesign treatment but the classic memorable bosses did not, and in an update that had nothing to do with Ludibrium.
  • zoutzakjezoutzakje
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    edited October 12
    If we're talking about redesigning old bosses, could we add Pianus to the list? Or is that silly fish not considered boss enough?
    I think horntail and pink bean are ok the way they are, though i do agree that needing skill/dmg instead of just dmg is much more enjoyable.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited October 12
    zoutzakje wrote: »
    If we're talking about redesigning old bosses, could we add Pianus to the list? Or is that silly fish not considered boss enough?
    I think horntail and pink bean are ok the way they are, though i do agree that needing skill/dmg instead of just dmg is much more enjoyable.

    Fight these bosses at the intended level and they're a nightmare to deal with due to really dumb design.
    Fight Zakum, Von Leon, Hilla, etc at the intended level and they're actually somewhat fun because they actually require skill.
  • zoutzakjezoutzakje
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    edited October 13
    Most bosses are a nightmare to solo at the "intended" level though, or even downright impossible. Skill might allow you to survive through the timer, but you need a certain amount of damage output for nearly all of them. Easy/normal Zakum, easy/normal Von Leon, and normal Hilla are some of the easier ones. Horntail and Pink bean require skill too, just... more of it I guess

    What surprises me is that you didn't mention some of the truly unfair gimmicks of a lot of bosses. When their attacks line up in such a way that you die no matter what you do. I admit this can happen in Horntail when you get hit with 1/1 and mob touch damage at the same time. Haven't suffered cheesy deaths like that in Pink Bean, though I'm sure it's possible too.
    But what about the infamous cage of hard Hilla? No amount of skill is gonna win you that fight. Gotta burst her down fast.
    Or when you're fighting chaos Papulatus and trying to prevent the 2 lasers from touching each other. But the whole floor is covered in insta-kill fields. Neither of those seem to affect you when in Dark Sight though, so that might be a bug.
    Chaos Vellum's tails might occasionally box you in. It only happens once in a blue moon though.
    Damien likes to line up a large part of the map in his purple death fields from time to time. Good luck getting out of there if you're not close to the edge already.
    Lotus... Lotus is a big can of worms. I'm assuming that, unlike the others, most of the crap he pulls is a bug and not by design. Entering the fight right on top of his laser comes to mind. Better spam that iframe skill upon entering or risk immediate death. Stage 2 and 3 can have the floor electrified before the platforms have landed or after they have vanished. Stage 3 can have a large Train (or whatever they are) fall right on top of the only "safe" spot while the floor is electrified. These are just the worst ones. Lotus has a couple of other minor ones as well if attacks line up poorly.

    I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but you get the idea. Horntail and Pink Bean are pretty tame compared to the crap some of the others pull off. But i do dislike the 1/1 attacks. It's a very cheesy way of trying to kill players. I don't think any of these bosses need a full revamp though. Just some minor changes here and there.

    I've learned to deal with all of this, but I've been told that Dual Blades are naturally epic at bossing. I imagine a lot of other classes may have more trouble.
    I've also been told that i may come off as harsh when I'm passionate about something. I mean no disrespect whatsoever. Just offering my thoughts and experiences i suppose. I'm probably just rambling because I'm tired.

    Cheers
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited October 13
    zoutzakje wrote: »
    I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but you get the idea. Horntail and Pink Bean are pretty tame compared to the crap some of the others pull off. But i do dislike the 1/1 attacks. It's a very cheesy way of trying to kill players. I don't think any of these bosses need a full revamp though. Just some minor changes here and there.

    Have to disagree with you. The other bosses CAN setup situations where you are almost sure to die. But they can still be avoided for the most part with skill.
    You cannot dodge Horntail/Pink Bean attacks. This is the difference. It is not skill to mash the potion button over and over until the boss dies.
    Also who said anything about solo? They'd still be a nightmare even with 6 people due to bad mechanics.
    Hard Hilla Cage is also different too. It's preventable with another party member. This isn't about solo bossing.
    HuskyDM
  • zoutzakjezoutzakje
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    edited October 13
    I'm not sure about Pink Bean, but i know Horntail has a visual clue when he's casting the 1/1 attack. I think it's one of the arms that casts it? I'm not sure. You can't dodge it, but you can anticipate it. But i also do understand your point. It is a bad mechanic that requires no skill, just potions and some luck.
    Alright, so it's not about solo bossing. Fair enough. That takes Hard Hilla out of the equation. I believe the others still stand though. If you can consistently survive the situations i described above, then i am genuinely impressed. Personally i lose a life, most of the time. I consider it bad mechanics also, just in a different way. At least these situations don't happen nearly as often as the 1/1 attacks. Especially Horntail loves to spam you with them, until you kill what's casting them. How would you change it? Remove the 1/1 attacks and replace it with a new ability? Or did you have something else entirely in mind?
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited October 14
    zoutzakje wrote: »
    I believe the others still stand though. If you can consistently survive the situations i described above, then i am genuinely impressed. Personally i lose a life, most of the time. I consider it bad mechanics also, just in a different way.
    Sure, it's bad but as you point out...
    At least these situations don't happen nearly as often as the 1/1 attacks.
    For the most part these bosses are fair.
    Super Heavy RNG kills and glitchy deaths are mostly due to the way MapleStory works, not the boss itself.
    If Nexon were to improve the conditions for the OHKO moves to be more reliable, it wouldn't be as bad.
    How would you change it? Remove the 1/1 attacks and replace it with a new ability? Or did you have something else entirely in mind?
    I'm not a game designer, so I can't say for certain how it should be changed. The new Zakum fights nothing like the previous one.
    So I'm sure Nexon, if they were to actually redesign this boss instead of just throwing extra lives on as a cheap fix, could surprise us.

    As for pink bean, some of the attacks are actually dodgeable. Just remove/change the ones that aren't and we'll be good to go.