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New Bishop Holy Symbol Mechanic

TakeichiTakeichi
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edited June 11 in Suggestions, Feedback, and Requests
Following the patch updates for v.205, Bishop's holy symbol will now be affected by the distance from the caster. A certain distance away from the bishop, holy symbol will lose half its effect (50% to 25%), and lose all hyper skill additions (10% resistance and 30% droprate). My understanding is this distance is similar, or the same, as when your party member's HP bar is greyed out in the party roster. This distance is abysmal, and would require the bishop to chase party members around to keep the full effect and is simply impractical for the bishop. The reduced effects will be outshined by a Decent Holy Symbol at level 10 and above, with the benefit of the droprate effect. This effectively renders holy symbol useless in a party scenario. It also negatively affects party members when a bishop casts Holy Symbol as this will overwrite Decent Holy Symbol, while giving an effect even lesser than the Decent version.

My understanding is this came from a KMS 2 PC meta where HS mules were used (since they do not have Kishin). The current meta in GMS hardly accounts for HS mules as opposed to Kanna mules. In a grander scheme of things, for hardcore players who want a dedicated HS mule, this player would also want to stack exp for efficient training. This could mean 2x coupons, mercedes link skill, pendant of the spirit, mvp buffs, and decent/regular HS. These are all commonly used exp multipliers for 335% (maxed DHS) or 350% (HS). The difference between having a HS mule and using DHS is 4-5% extra exp per mob.

As a bishop main myself, I don't find myself willing to use HS anymore lest I overwrite anyone's DHS and make them wait 3 minutes of cooldown. This new addition is counter-intuitive in encouraging party play. My suggestion is to remove the distance modifier and make it a same map modifier. When a party member is no longer on the same map or in the party, they will receive the reduced effects. This way a bishop can still play with someone on a large map and keep the effects, while HS mules cannot buff without leeching. This will affect my gameplay as a bishop as I can no longer give someone HS and leave so they can enjoy, but it also maintains my ability to give a better buff than the decent version. That or remove this ridiculous mechanic altogether! It is simply absurd.
Arror
  1. What should be the Holy Symbol mechanic?22 votes
    1. The New One, with a distance modifier
       9% (2 votes)
    2. A hybrid one, with a same map and party modifier
       14% (3 votes)
    3. Keep it as the old version before v 205
       77% (17 votes)

Comments

  • KishB1shKishB1sh
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    edited June 11
    Nexon just wants to make the quality of life abysmal for the people that actually play their game.
  • fidgetspinnerACEfidgetspinnerACE
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    edited June 12
    I voted for leaving it alone, but if they wanted to avoid players afking their mules with a free exp modifier, maybe have the buff active when the bishop is in an attacking state within the same map. Or have a zone where they have to press up periodically to recharge the buff (decreasing buff duration, having a CD on HS so players are forced to do this). Really though, they're just overcomplicating things.

    Still, imagine nuMaple developers trying to balance Maple in its beginning years. That aside, mules created solely for their skills have been done before, and with the exception of Kish mules, I don't see any real issues with them. Nexon made it so party-play is dead, so idk why they're giving a stink about it now when people are just doing what they're being given. Oh yea, to control progress and make sure people pay and play their game, as if we weren't already.
  • TakeichiTakeichi
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    edited June 12
    I voted for leaving it alone, but if they wanted to avoid players afking their mules with a free exp modifier, maybe have the buff active when the bishop is in an attacking state within the same map. Or have a zone where they have to press up periodically to recharge the buff (decreasing buff duration, having a CD on HS so players are forced to do this). Really though, they're just overcomplicating things.

    Still, imagine nuMaple developers trying to balance Maple in its beginning years. That aside, mules created solely for their skills have been done before, and with the exception of Kish mules, I don't see any real issues with them. Nexon made it so party-play is dead, so idk why they're giving a stink about it now when people are just doing what they're being given. Oh yea, to control progress and make sure people pay and play their game, as if we weren't already.

    I agree that it adds an unneeded layer of complexity to a simple buff. The addition of decent skills should have been sufficient in combating the buff mule issue, and it should’ve stopped there. I don’t know any players who use a HS mule post 200 mostly because of Kannas favoured over bishops, and the ones who use it for training pre-200 are far and few between. The few players who choose to complicate their gameplay for the tiny bit extra exp should not be complicating my gameplay.
  • YakudleYakudle
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    edited June 12
    I don't play Bishop but man it sucks when your main is nerfed, Nexon shouldn't nerf classes instead they should fix the outdated stuff to bost party play
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited June 13
    Yakudle wrote: »
    I don't play Bishop but man it sucks when your main is nerfed, Nexon shouldn't nerf classes instead they should fix the outdated stuff to bost party play

    I'll settle for a meso boost similar to exp boost. The biggest problems for party play is lack of good maps, meso rate and player mentality.
  • YakudleYakudle
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    edited June 13
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    I'll settle for a meso boost similar to exp boost. The biggest problems for party play is lack of good maps, meso rate and player mentality.

    The problem is even if Nexon gives the players something they always take it away cause some bot or the players use it too much
    old monster carnival in ludi , some training grounds, um Romeo and Juliet pq, it's always the same they give and take it away later
    I'm not saying it's all their fault but every time Nexon tries something it backfires somehow
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited June 13
    Yakudle wrote: »
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    I'll settle for a meso boost similar to exp boost. The biggest problems for party play is lack of good maps, meso rate and player mentality.

    The problem is even if Nexon gives the players something they always take it away cause some bot or the players use it too much
    old monster carnival in ludi , some training grounds, um Romeo and Juliet pq, it's always the same they give and take it away later
    I'm not saying it's all their fault but every time Nexon tries something it backfires somehow

    There's a difference between using and abusing features. For example, Kishin was abused, not used.
    Nexon does seem to have trouble sometimes knowing the difference. For party play, I think it mostly comes from lack of use.
    I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but if you want Nexon to fix party play, you're going to actually have to start using it. (To show them you actually care.)
  • TakeichiTakeichi
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    edited June 13
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Yakudle wrote: »
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    I'll settle for a meso boost similar to exp boost. The biggest problems for party play is lack of good maps, meso rate and player mentality.

    The problem is even if Nexon gives the players something they always take it away cause some bot or the players use it too much
    old monster carnival in ludi , some training grounds, um Romeo and Juliet pq, it's always the same they give and take it away later
    I'm not saying it's all their fault but every time Nexon tries something it backfires somehow

    There's a difference between using and abusing features. For example, Kishin was abused, not used.
    Nexon does seem to have trouble sometimes knowing the difference. For party play, I think it mostly comes from lack of use.
    I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but if you want Nexon to fix party play, you're going to actually have to start using it. (To show them you actually care.)

    And the point stands, that I use party play simply for the fact that I do have holy symbol. I use it because it is better than a Decent version. I party with people to give them that extra 30% drop when I help them through vanishing journey quests. Now if I'm on the other side of the map they lose this altogether. With this nerf, it is worse than the decent version so why should I ever party with someone who already has DHS? They don't need it.

    Hungry Muto PQ is affected by drop rate. When everyone scatters to every corner to grab ingredients, they already lose the HS buff. What is the point? Everyone should just use their own DHS so they can keep their droprate up.

    I mention the drop rate effects above mostly because the exp effect is simply too minimal when all other exp stacks are taken into consideration. Yes, people do not party for exp anymore, but people are even less likely to party for exp if HS drops simply because the bishop and party member need to cover the map to keep spawn up.

    SlicedTimeluna02
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited June 13
    Takeichi wrote: »
    -snip-

    Holy Symbol is a bit of a weird nerf. It's one we got because of Korean meta.
    I don't think it does either version of the game good. It's just another nail in the well built coffin that is party play.
    By "lack of people using party play", I mean people who use it for everything, not just dailies or bossing.
    It has to be on a massive scale as well. Nexon is certainly going to notice if half a server is in grind parties.
    The other way would be to have an extremely vocal group on the forums, but we really don't have the numbers here for that, either.

    It's my opinion that Nexon won't fix party play until people start using it and that people won't start using it until Nexon fixes it.
    Someone has to be the group that breaks free of this cycle and bites the bullet. Does anyone expect that group is going to be Nexon?
    Nexon may eventually fix party play before players make the return to it, but I'd rather have a more welcoming and social game now.

    I think that Holy Symbol, as well as any other party buff, should be map based. If anyone in the map casts a buff, everyone gets it.
    As far as decent versions of skills are considered, maybe have them take priority. If the person has a bishop but casts HS, it shouldn't be overridden by HS.
    Either there's poor communication, or there's a reason they cast it. Either way, it's up to that player who cast it to figure that out.
  • AKradianAKradian
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    edited June 14
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    There's a difference between using and abusing features. For example, Kishin was abused, not used.
    Nexon does seem to have trouble sometimes knowing the difference. For party play, I think it mostly comes from lack of use.
    I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but if you want Nexon to fix party play, you're going to actually have to start using it. (To show them you actually care.)

    But if we all use party play as it is, what reason does Nexon have to improve it? No need to incentivize people to do what they're already doing.
    Assuming they even want to incentivize it. Considering this change to HS, as well as the new instantiation of the level 30-59 theme dungeon, it looks like Nexon Korea hates mules and leeches so much that they're willing to gut partying entirely just to prevent anyone gaining anything without working for it.


    Specifically for the HS change, in my opinion it's really over the top because it makes it useless as a party skill. A party training together in a single large map will naturally want to split to different areas of the map - and the Bishop can't stay close to them all. Even a Bishop partying with a single attacker would have a hard time keeping them buffed, simply because different classes have different mobility skills.
    Might as well change HS to be a self-buff only, so Bishops won't override people's better DHS, as Takeichi explained.
    Fuhreakh0lyicdragonSlicedTime
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited June 14
    AKradian wrote: »
    -snip-

    Even if Nexon does nothing to party play, people using it still improves the state of the game, brings in new people, gets Nexon more money, etc.
    If we make party play a focus of the game again, Nexon has no choice but to at least acknowledge it. (Either then or down the road)
    Though it won't fix party play now, or even soon, it should at least help in other areas.
    MapleStory is extremely unwelcoming to new players. A return to party play makes the game look more enticing to these players.
    I don't particularly care about parties being faster/meta/whatever. As I said in my post, I want a more welcoming and social game.

    Regardless if Nexon improves party play or not based on people using it. It's something that just about everyone complains about.
    You can either continue to whine about features you don't even use, or you can make the best of what you have and make connections.
    It's like going to the mall with friends. You don't do it because it's a good place to shop. You do it because it's fun.
  • TakeichiTakeichi
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    edited June 14
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Takeichi wrote: »
    -snip-

    Holy Symbol is a bit of a weird nerf. It's one we got because of Korean meta.
    I don't think it does either version of the game good. It's just another nail in the well built coffin that is party play.
    By "lack of people using party play", I mean people who use it for everything, not just dailies or bossing.
    It has to be on a massive scale as well. Nexon is certainly going to notice if half a server is in grind parties.
    The other way would be to have an extremely vocal group on the forums, but we really don't have the numbers here for that, either.

    It's my opinion that Nexon won't fix party play until people start using it and that people won't start using it until Nexon fixes it.
    Someone has to be the group that breaks free of this cycle and bites the bullet. Does anyone expect that group is going to be Nexon?
    Nexon may eventually fix party play before players make the return to it, but I'd rather have a more welcoming and social game now.

    Party play in the game is a whole other beast to work on/fix, but I'd advocate for it if it means taking little strides like trying to get this HS situation out of the party play "coffin".
    Fuhreak wrote: »

    I think that Holy Symbol, as well as any other party buff, should be map based. If anyone in the map casts a buff, everyone gets it.
    As far as decent versions of skills are considered, maybe have them take priority. If the person has a bishop but casts HS, it shouldn't be overridden by HS.
    Either there's poor communication, or there's a reason they cast it. Either way, it's up to that player who cast it to figure that out.

    The priority situation may make sense if we're simply talking about HS alone. Of course HS can be a special case, but for all other decent skills the original skill still has greater effect and would make the most sense to have the most priority. As far as communication goes, sure I can communicate with my party and know who has decent holy symbol and who doesn't, and those of us who don't can go to our little corner on the map and use HS. Or I can move to my own corner as a bishop and buff myself without affecting others. This is just a weird form of gameplay. Though as AKradian mentioned, making HS a self buff would alleviate this.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited June 15
    Takeichi wrote: »
    The priority situation may make sense if we're simply talking about HS alone. Of course HS can be a special case, but for all other decent skills the original skill still has greater effect and would make the most sense to have the most priority.

    Not exactly true. I can get much better duration on decent skills compared to people who don't have buff duration. (From the equip versions)
    That's about it. A poor argument I know, but still it's better in that aspect.
    One alternative would be to have both skills able to be up at the same time. So that only the one with the better effect takes place.
    In my opinion the best option is to just make this new version map wide (with all other buff skills please) with some other form of anti-mule.
    As far as communication goes, sure I can communicate with my party and know who has decent holy symbol and who doesn't, and those of us who don't can go to our little corner on the map and use HS. Or I can move to my own corner as a bishop and buff myself without affecting others. This is just a weird form of gameplay. Though as AKradian mentioned, making HS a self buff would alleviate this.

    I don't think HS should be a self buff. I think the way both Nexon and players can be happy is to have Nexon change the rules to the "battle mode" to be harder for mules to activate.
    Removing the getting hit to start battle mode is a decent start to that, maybe require a certain kill threshold as well.
    There are certainly better ways to deal with mules leeching EXP, if that's really what Nexon is trying to kill.

    While we on the subject of making buffs better, I feel like a plug to my old thread is fine here.
    http://forums.maplestory.nexon.net/discussion/22420/feature-suggestion-party-buff-icons#latest
  • luna02luna02
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    edited July 5
    i not play bishop but this nerf in party is really suck ..
  • skitian462skitian462
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    edited July 15
    The nerf is unbelievable. The fact that Decent HS could ever have the chance to outshine the real skill is absurd. I thought the same thing with the Frenzy Totem and Kishin Shoukan. There isn't any reason that artificial things should offer any better services than the actual skill they're based on.
  • MicaliciousMicalicious
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    edited July 15
    Really not sure what the hell Nexon was thinking with this change. Makes an already nerfed class even more useless and takes away another component of party play.
    It's almost like nobody that works on this game knows how this game works.