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Heroic Worlds is Going to Need More Damage

StaconaStacona
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edited August 12 in Suggestions, Feedback, and Requests
At this point I have no confidence in the current KMS (Korea MapleStory) Game Director, I am on the side of about 80% of him needing to be fired / demoted because what he has done so far is not giving me any confidence for a positive direction for the game - especially with him announcing the deletion of Reboot in KMS - as the "solution" to fix the lack of damage Reboot has overall and especially to kill the current new end game bosses.

For GMS however, this means we will need damage buffs in order to take down the upcoming new bosses and Extreme Lotus in a realistic manner.


1. One way to do this is simply to revert the Final Damage passive nerf that Heroic Worlds received back to how it used to be.
This would be the simplest and easier way to do things.

Might need more than an additive +20% Final Damage however based on the massive difference in damage Heroic and Interactive Worlds players have between each other (Interactive Worlds' end game players can more than double Heroics' end game damage).

2. The other method would be more creative for a more of a "grindier" approach to gain more Final Damage for end game Heroic Worlds players.

~ The grindier method would be simply, you keep the Final Damage based on Character Level the same as it currently is, and in addition can pay Mesos to perform a chance to upgrade the Final Damage passive further (up to a hard cap) so that end game players have a way to upgrade their damage further and keep the system simple and keep minimal systems in Heroic Worlds.

Example: Whenever you succeed in an attempt, you permanently add +1% Final Damage to the Heroic Passive. Every new tier to attempt for more Final Damage will cost more Mesos than the last and the Chance to Succeed will also decrease.

The only downside for failing an attempt would be the lost of mesos for doing that attempt in the first place, the player cannot decrease their Final Damage after they have already succeeded to the next tier.

Let's say the additional Final Damage cap is +50% and on a level 250 character you would have a total of 95% Final Damage as the absolute cap. Note that the hard cap would be there as a chase aspect for players, but at a certain point the mesos cost is so high and the success chance is so low that players would get stuck around the additional +20-40% Final Damage range.
[Example value, but Heroic Worlds' current damage ceiling is significantly lower than what Interactive Worlds can have.]



UPDATE (August 8, 2024):

For GMS, Interactive Worlds more than triple Heroic Worlds' damage by end game. I would not go this extreme of a damage increase, but I would bring up Heroic Worlds damage to be significantly closer.

Basically something along these lines:

~ Revert the Final Damage nerf to where it was before Legion Artifact was released, including the extra +5% Final Damage for reach level 300, and every tier add on a further additional +5% Final Damage (so 250+ characters will have 70% Final Damage from the passive and 300+ characters will have 75% Final Damage, etc.).

This will bring up the baseline for everyone to be closer to Interactive Worlds across the board.

~ For end game, add on a new system that increases the Final Damage passive further with mesos to attempt a succeed or fail system to permanently rank up the Final Damage further.

- Starting hard cap will be an additional +100% Final Damage plus an additional +5% if you managed to complete the entire thing (so at level 300+, the starting absolute limit would be 180% Final Damage), this can be increased further if or when needed.

- Every rank will grant +1% Final Damage when you succeed and you cannot drop down to the previous rank ever.

- Starting success chance is 100%, every 10 ranks reduces the success by an additive -5%, down to a minimum of 10% success chance (for the distant future). The final 10 ranks (which will change with possible distant future changes) will have the success rates be 10%, 8%, 6%, 4%, 3%, 2%, 1%, 0.3%, 0.2%, and 0.1% respectively as a form of chase for power and a bonus 5% Final Damage if you manage to achieve completion.

- Every rank attempt the mesos cost will increase by 10% than the previous rank i.e. base cost is 10,000 mesos, rank 2's attempts will all cost 11,000 mesos, then rank 3's attempts will all cost 12,100 mesos, etc. and keep scaling in this way.


The other thing that Heroic Worlds should receive is the insurance for better boss rewards since Interactive Worlds have trading they can give over items such as Absolab, Arcane Umbra, and Ethereal equipment to others or other characters on their account.

~ So the change that should be implemented is make things such as the Absolab boxes, Arcane Umbra boxes, Special Skill Ring boxes, and upcoming Ethereal boxes be transferable within account to make these rewards more exciting for Heroic Worlds since we do not have trading and this way we can be rewarded for doing these super difficult end game bosses with progressing other characters faster as a result, giving Heroic Worlds players a reason to keep doing this super hard content.

(NOTE: Only the box itself would be transferable, but the equipment directly will remain locked to that character!)

And Sol Erda Fragments I do think should be transferable within account for Heroic Worlds as a side note as this will become important for the distant future when players hit a hard cap to their 6th job progression on that character, they will then be able to at least give over the extra fragments to other characters they may have.


I am confident KMS Reboot players are absolutely furious and frustrated at the moment and are extremely unhappy with MapleStory and Nexon after this news of KMS Reboot's deletion on top of them being absolutely screwed over and neglected prior to this, do better Nexon, a lot better!


Update (August 11th, 2024):

Possible scenarios:

1:
~ Increase the maximum lines of potential for HEROIC WORLDS ONLY from 3 to 5 to offer Heroic Worlds roughly similar power of Bonus Potentials without ever adding in Bonus Potentials and keep that system Interactive Worlds exclusive.

~ Increase Heroic Final Damage Passive back to where it was prior to Legion Artifact being introduced and add on +5% Final Damage to every tier and re-add on +5% Final Damage for reaching level 300.


2:
~ Final Damage passive changed to granting characters 20% Final Damage at level 0, every 5 levels adds on +1% Final Damage, up to level 250 which will offer a total of 70% Final Damage.

~ Upon reaching level 260, you will gain a new passive system that adds on additional Final Damage to the Heroic Passive to further increase end game damage for the world type and re-introduce the "joys of leveling" aspect that Reboot once had.

- Whenever you get exp, this new system will also passively get exp, after a certain amount it will level up granting you more Final Damage and granting the player the feeling of leveling again at a point in the game when levels are very sparce and rare.

- For example: the current level cap for the system will be 1,000 levels. Every level up will grant an additional 0.1% Final Damage (so an additive +100% Final Damage for hitting level 1,000 of this system). Levels 1-400 will be roughly the same exp required to go from character level 1 to 250; and levels 400-1,000 will be roughly equivalent to the exp required to from character level 250-300. Whenever there is a character level exp curve reduction, the exp requirement for this system will also go down by the same %.

This would be a lot of work to implement, but offer the most unique and fun way to level up character progression / damage while offering a radically different experience than what Interactive Worlds have creating a different experience between worlds rather than try to make them more the same.

Fuhreak

Comments

  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited August 8
    Wave has been nothing but bad decision after bad decision. It seems to me as if the guy is in far over his head and should be demoted asap.
    I'm sure whatever he did before he had some talent for or they wouldn't have considered him for director, but he has clearly hit his ceiling and is a good example of the peter principle at this point.
    As for fixing reboot, another solution would be to add the bonus potential system to reboot while adjusting the passive FD so that we remain slightly below reg server. Allowing us to clear end game bosses with a slightly worse theoretical damage cap is the way to go.

    I'm sure "Go West" was created as a direct result of this idea being pitched in Korea since they absolutely know this would kill GMS and Nexon doesn't want to lose an entire region to wave's inability to fix a server type.
    Not that Wonki was perfect, but Reboot lasted 8 years under Wonki but Wave manages to completely destroy it in a little over a year?
    "Do better Nexon" indeed.
  • StaconaStacona
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    edited August 8
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Wave has been nothing but bad decision after bad decision. It seems to me as if the guy is in far over his head and should be demoted asap.
    I'm sure whatever he did before he had some talent for or they wouldn't have considered him for director, but he has clearly hit his ceiling and is a good example of the peter principle at this point.
    As for fixing reboot, another solution would be to add the bonus potential system to reboot while adjusting the passive FD so that we remain slightly below reg server. Allowing us to clear end game bosses with a slightly worse theoretical damage cap is the way to go.

    I'm sure "Go West" was created as a direct result of this idea being pitched in Korea since they absolutely know this would kill GMS and Nexon doesn't want to lose an entire region to wave's inability to fix a server type.
    Not that Wonki was perfect, but Reboot lasted 8 years under Wonki but Wave manages to completely destroy it in a little over a year?
    "Do better Nexon" indeed.

    Do not want scrolls or bonus potential, the point to Reboot / Heroic is to keep the game simple with minimal systems.

    If they could figure out a simple system that offers more stuff that Bonus Potentials offer such as more cooldown reduction and such would be cool, but I would make that system be entirely utility effects only and have it offer increased healing, reduced MP costs, flat CD reduction, % CD reduction, chance to CD skip, attack speed, an effect that works similar to familiar healing, true % damage reduction, etc. that way players are able to create custom builds for their character(s).


    Reboot was Wonki's direction for the game; but the new director has done a very failed Aran and Shade revamps (downgrades in most ways) and Weekly Dungeons which are not fun content(s) to do and the only reason to do them is for more fragments. I need to see a very long term vague plan laid out from him to know if anything he would be doing would be positive for the game, because at the moment he is just flailing and failing.

    Heroic Worlds should be brought up in damage to be very close to Interactive Worlds, because we are very underpowered in multiple ways to Interactive Worlds.
    An additive +50% Final Damage to the Heroic Passive would still not get us close to what Interactive Worlds can do, but it would at least help Heroic to realistically kill the end game bosses.

    The other thing they need to do is figure out how to help Supports hit Blue/Green Dot requirements in a full party for Heroic where all members are roughly equal in power to each other.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited August 8
    Stacona wrote: »
    Do not want scrolls or bonus potential, the point to Reboot / Heroic is to keep the game simple with minimal systems.
    I mention BPot since it's extremely similar to what we already have. Scrolls would be an entirely new system and going too far but I could be fine with BPot.
    Heroic Worlds should be brought up in damage to be very close to Interactive Worlds, because we are very underpowered in multiple ways to Interactive Worlds.
    An additive +50% Final Damage to the Heroic Passive would still not get us close to what Interactive Worlds can do, but it would at least help Heroic to realistically kill the end game bosses.
    I think doing a FD buff is more than enough.
    The other thing they need to do is figure out how to help Supports hit Blue/Green Dot requirements in a full party for Heroic where all members are roughly equal in power to each other.
    I still do not know what you are on about this, I easily blue dot on support characters that are half the CP of my other party members. If you can't blue dot, that seems more like a you problem.
  • DaxterbeerDaxterbeer
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    edited August 9

    The FD buff from Reboot would never be good as bonus potentials since it doesn't provide other stats such as stat, or CDR for classes that greatly benefit from CDR. Sacrificing the FD buff would be a better solution as it gives access to other options that increases your overall damage instead of only impacting only your damage. The main reason no one likes Bpot in regular is because rolling for anything more than 1 line is difficult because there is no way to pick before and after results nor or there Violet, Equality or Uni equivalent versions of bpots. So every roll is pretty much the same as throwing a Glowing Cube. If you rolled 1L att bpot and want to go to 2L att, you would have to lose the ATT line and keep rolling until you find 2L ATT. The risk increases as some whales only settle for perfect 3L bpots, or 6L items overall.

    The reason potentials are "easier" to perfect is because Reboot constantly has a supply to Bright Cubes (as long they boss and grind) which allow them to decide which result they want so they never degrade an item unless they choose something wrong. This allows someone to go to 2L to 3L or for the min maxes, go from 33% stat/att to 36% on all their items without fear of worsening items. In our version of Dreamer or GO WEST, we opted to keep cash and in game cubes., but we missed out on a small benefit provided by KMS's meso potential system. All rolls (both Mpot and Bpot) allowed us to compare and keep which results we wanted allowing 6L items to be obtainable without fear or worsening your item. My guess we opted to keep our version of cubes and potentials because we didn't want to receive the meso farming cap that came with it or lose our cash and ingame cubes. I think Reboot or whatever it might turn into should have bpots in exchange for FD assuming they could be re rolled with mesos and have the choice of keeping their results without any further changes to other cubes or meso cap.

    Fuhreak
  • StaconaStacona
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    edited August 9
    Daxterbeer wrote: »

    The world is supposed to be a simplified version of the game. This means keep things like scrolls and bonus potentials away.

    Add cooldown reduction flat, cooldown reduction %, chance to cooldown skip, etc. lines to familiars and add in glowing and bright cards for more variety and make the familiar system actually manage-able.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited August 9
    Stacona wrote: »
    Daxterbeer wrote: »

    The world is supposed to be a simplified version of the game. This means keep things like scrolls and bonus potentials away.

    Add cooldown reduction flat, cooldown reduction %, chance to cooldown skip, etc. lines to familiars and add in glowing and bright cards for more variety and make the familiar system actually manage-able.

    This makes the problem worse because now you're just forced to choose between more options.
    Unless you change familiars, but that would be making the game more complex, more so than just adding 3 new potential lines with a new cube/scroll type to access those potentials.
    Bonus Potential is the same system, adding them doesn't make the game more complex, it just means you have to cube more. BPot is the better solution.
  • StaconaStacona
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    edited August 10
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Stacona wrote: »
    Daxterbeer wrote: »

    What are you even going on about?

    The solution for the damage is just buff the final damage passive for heroic.

    The familiar thing is to improve the system and make it more interesting with extra line options, which is also shared across all worlds so it doesn't change anything for heroic. As long as you add in Glowing Cards and Bright Cards into the game then you make familiars function the same as cubing, improving the system while also simplifying the dumbest system from their current form.

    Increasing and improving the final damage passive is the best system as it is exclusive to heroic and has the most control for damage tuning, scaling it based on what it is needed for future updates, and does the same thing for every class in the game.


    Something else heroic needs is an ethereal all stat modifier boost. This will grant increased fake stat for stat scaling abilities that does not offer increased damage so that bishop, lynn, paladin, etc. have proper scaling based on the character's power level since heroic has a lot less stat than interactive.
  • DaxterbeerDaxterbeer
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    edited August 10
    The familiar thing is to improve the system and make it more interesting with extra line options, which is also shared across all worlds so it doesn't change anything for heroic. As long as you add in Glowing Cards and Bright Cards into the game then you make familiars function the same as cubing, improving the system while also simplifying the dumbest system from their current form.


    The whole point of Reboot/Heroic was to eliminate trade and access to cash shop items and focus on self progress. It has nothing to do with eliminating scrolls and bpots to simplify the experience. Because cubes are obtained with meso and not NX and meso there is more abundant, it makes the server more appealing than buying cubes in regular servers.


    Using familiars to increase someone's range is a poor decision. People only really use it to increase boss damage, bypass healing restrictions or increase drop rates of bosses and farming. No one wants to walk around with since they are a visual distraction (unless you want a parade following you) and the stats provided are temporary as you need to constantly refill them. And in some cases, familiars break classes such as Dual Blade's Mirror Target effect by making the boss target YOU and your familiars instead of the dummy meant to draw aggro. Not to mention, familiars offer only 6 lines of potentials which are actually weaker than main potential and bonus potential where as bonus potential pretty much doubles the amount of lines you can have. Even if familiars made up the loss damage, it would ruin a lot of farming setups since now you don't have access to Drop% for farming.

    I doubt the team for GMS wants to overhaul the familiar system just to avoid implementing a system from regular servers into Reboot. Why would the developers pour more time reinventing the familiar system when the KMS bonus potential system already matches your idea of introducing glowing and bright cards for familiars?

    If we deviated from bpots and went with familiars being an overseas feature, when KMS does any changes that relates to potentials, familiars would most likely not be included and would be updated late or just be forgotten. If Reboot were to receive Bonus Potentials, and changes made to potentials in KMS would be updated in a timely manner and would cost less man hours as they don't need to rewrite familiar code and just copy bonus potential changes.



    Fuhreak
  • StaconaStacona
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    edited August 10
    Daxterbeer wrote: »

    The name REBOOT was to reboot the game and do a re-fresh start with a better level up experience with fighting monsters around your level - which was the purpose of the old reboot damage formula and the stronger monsters that also give more exp - and to remove all of the extra systems and instead gain power through leveling up, the stronger monsters were there to prevent the player from leveling too quickly because if you are too weak to fight the monsters, then you need to get stronger to fight the new monsters to then speed up your leveling process and create a much better RPG experience.

    GMS is going to be 95% different to KMS going forward, we are going to be drastically different to KMS - AND NO LONGER WILL BE FOLLOWING KMS!! This was mentioned by Inkwell already.

    So what needs to happen is we adapt to what KMS is adding to the game. We don't need to copy KMS anymore and instead adapt to the KMS content that we do get and do things the GMS way based on what we are getting from KMS.

    We don't need and never will need bonus potentials, let that stay interactive, and for heroic we just adjust the final damage passive in accordance to what we need for the new content coming out for that patch. Right now we just need to buff heroic's damage to be a lot closer to interactive, nothing more, anything we need for the future will be adjusted when it happens.



    You are too fixated on the Familiar thing. That is completely unrelated to the topic and is something that just in general needs to be addressed by massively improving on how who work with the system and upgrade familiars, as well as just adding more customization options that familiars can grant to form unique builds for your character. Plus this system is for ALL WORLDS and does nothing for heroic to close the damage gap between interactive.

    Don't give bonus potentials for heroic, improve the familiar system as an unrelated topic that needs to get done, and increase heroic worlds' damage by a lot to be closer to interactive worlds' damage.

    Three separate points unrelated to each other.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited August 11
    Stacona wrote: »

    Don't give bonus potentials for heroic, improve the familiar system as an unrelated topic that needs to get done, and increase heroic worlds' damage by a lot to be closer to interactive worlds' damage.

    You can easily increase the damage of reboot without making the game more complex by adding BPots. This is also far more future proof with less work since KMS also has BPots. Even if GMS differs from KMS it will still be based on the same game for the most part.
    Your reasoning is poor. BPots would be a fine addition to reboot. They do not add complexity nor was the idea of reboot to gain power via levels since they would have completely removed potential and not just bonus potential.
    They weren't removed to make the game more simple, they were removed to make the game harder, by limiting how much power you could obtain.

    The main selling point of Reboot was that it was a harder server and one without trade. The simplification was more of a direct result of power limiting. You're basing this whole notion based on a single sentence from the original reboot post.
    Item enhancement is simplified, and trades are disabled

    Where as most of the description focuses on the server being a harder server type with no trading and being actual free to play.
    The whole server idea is boiled down in the first line of each post related to reboot's launch.

    Go back to MapleStory’s RPG roots in Reboot, where you can fight tough monsters and earn all your items through hard work.
    The new Reboot world brings MapleStory back to its roots as a hardcore RPG, offering many changes that will prove to be a new challenge.
  • StaconaStacona
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    edited August 11
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Stacona wrote: »

    Stop, no bonus potentials for Heroic, if you want bonus potentials that bad go play interactive worlds.

    And Reboot was never once intended to be a hardcore version of the game or a hard version of the game, it was intended to be a simplified version of MapleStory since Nexon realized at the time that they added in too many systems and the easiest way to simplify the game was to make an entirely new world type to do that. This is why it had the name Reboot because it was meant to be a reboot to the game.

    "MapleStory back to its roots" you just completely ignore this line? "as a hardcore RPG, offering many changes that will prove to be a new challenge." Yea, this was how MapleStory used to be back in the day, Reboot aimed to bring back that feeling, not make the game harder, hard, or hardcore, but to bring back that feeling of the grind through a good RPG and feeling rewarded and get more powerful as your level up.


    Potentials is a simple system that is easily understood, add on Bonus Potentials and it is too much.

    Now if you say allow Heroic to have 5 lines of potentials then it be a different story. This would expand the current system without adding on a new system and give the same power that bonus potentials offer.

    The Legendary Line rolls chance might look something like this:
    100%
    20%
    10%
    1%
    0.5%

    From:
    100%
    10%
    1%

    This would then also help boost double and triple legendary line items, and having 5 rolls instead of 3 boosts the chances of hitting 3 line Weapon/Magic Attack % and 3 line 8% Critical Damage, plus the opportunity for -10 seconds Hat Cooldown Reduction [would be even more insanely rare than -6 seconds hat is now, but at least it would be a possible outcome that could happen].

    I would be down if they did something like this for Heroic, but never add in Bonus Potentials and keep that Interactive Worlds exclusive.
  • AlexKarevAlexKarev
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    edited August 11
    Honestly there's too much damage altogether remove it.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited August 11
    Stacona wrote: »

    And Reboot was never once intended to be a hardcore version of the game or a hard version of the game, it was intended to be a simplified version of MapleStory since Nexon realized at the time that they added in too many systems and the easiest way to simplify the game was to make an entirely new world type to do that. This is why it had the name Reboot because it was meant to be a reboot to the game.

    "MapleStory back to its roots" you just completely ignore this line? "as a hardcore RPG, offering many changes that will prove to be a new challenge." Yea, this was how MapleStory used to be back in the day, Reboot aimed to bring back that feeling, not make the game harder, hard, or hardcore, but to bring back that feeling of the grind through a good RPG and feeling rewarded and get more powerful as your level up.

    Are you even reading the same sentence? This does nothing but reinforce the idea that it is supposed to be a harder server and does nothing to imply more simple.
    More grindy it somewhat implies because that's how most people remember the game. But most people also remember scrolling, so why wasn't that added to the server?
    Why keep the newer cube system and not just use the older scroll system? We're supposed to be going back to roots after all.
    The new Reboot world brings MapleStory back to its roots as a hardcore RPG, offering many changes that will prove to be a new challenge.

    Please tell me where this implies that the game is supposed to be a simplified version of itself and how it doesn't imply that it's a challenge server.
    Bonus Potential is fine for reboot, I don't know why you're so hung up on this.
    Now if you say allow Heroic to have 5 lines of potentials then it be a different story. This would expand the current system without adding on a new system and give the same power that bonus potentials offer.
    This is more complex that bonus potentials. You claim the point is that the server is supposed to be more simple not harder, but you advocate for more complex systems that are harder to maximize gains on. Bonus potential is just three more lines on a separate cube/scroll. That's it, same system just separated from the first three lines.
    This would then also help boost double and triple legendary line items, and having 5 rolls instead of 3 boosts the chances of hitting 3 line Weapon/Magic Attack % and 3 line 8% Critical Damage, plus the opportunity for -10 seconds Hat Cooldown Reduction [would be even more insanely rare than -6 seconds hat is now, but at least it would be a possible outcome that could happen].
    All this does is make it so that players have to aim for 5L instead of 3L which is harder to obtain under your system. Bonus potential allows for the same thing but is easier to hit. You should be all for bonus potential if you want easier gains with less complex systems.
  • StaconaStacona
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    edited August 11
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Stacona wrote: »

    The mobs also gave way more exp too, along with the reboot passive, it made it where you gained power by simply leveling up.

    They wanted to remove systems with reboot, the system bloat that they kept adding over time, you got to be conscious of this or we will repeat history and we don't need to add in unnecessary systems.


    What is more complicated?
    One system or two systems?

    Modifying a system we already have does nothing for complexity, adding a system we don't have makes the game more complicated for players.


    And 6 lines is harder than 5 lines. Stop trying to turn Heroic into Interactive, no one wants it, if we did then interactive would be the dominate server.

    We got to think about the long term health for the game and not have to make another reboot in the future because we kept on adding system after system, becomes very overwhelming for players, and stunts the growth to the game as a result because it is a nightmare to get into.


    Just buff the final damage passive through changes and/or modifications. Easiest to control the balance of the game this way and is expandable in the future if more damage is ever needed.
  • DaxterbeerDaxterbeer
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    edited August 12
    Stacona wrote: »
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Stacona wrote: »

    The mobs also gave way more exp too, along with the reboot passive, it made it where you gained power by simply leveling up.

    They wanted to remove systems with reboot, the system bloat that they kept adding over time, you got to be conscious of this or we will repeat history and we don't need to add in unnecessary systems.


    What is more complicated?
    One system or two systems?

    Modifying a system we already have does nothing for complexity, adding a system we don't have makes the game more complicated for players.


    And 6 lines is harder than 5 lines. Stop trying to turn Heroic into Interactive, no one wants it, if we did then interactive would be the dominate server.

    We got to think about the long term health for the game and not have to make another reboot in the future because we kept on adding system after system, becomes very overwhelming for players, and stunts the growth to the game as a result because it is a nightmare to get into.


    Just buff the final damage passive through changes and/or modifications. Easiest to control the balance of the game this way and is expandable in the future if more damage is ever needed.
    Potentials is a simple system that is easily understood, add on Bonus Potentials and it is too much.

    You are just doing what you just did for regular potentials again.


    Well the complexity adds to game development and having to deal with coding familiars rather than copying something that already works and is pretty much universal across all services. You are making things harder for the developers when they already made a solution when you want a different solution with the same results as the ones devised by the developers.
    What is more complicated?
    One system or two systems?

    Modifying a system we already have does nothing for complexity, adding a system we don't have makes the game more complicated for players.

    And 6 lines is harder than 5 lines. Stop trying to turn Heroic into Interactive, no one wants it, if we did then interactive would be the dominate server.

    We got to think about the long term health for the game and not have to make another reboot in the future because we kept on adding system after system, becomes very overwhelming for players, and stunts the growth to the game as a result because it is a nightmare to get into.

    You math is wrong. Potential + Bonus Potential = 6 Lines to deal with. Potential + Your familiars = 8 Lines to deal with. The potential pools on Bonus Potentials are group so ATT%, BOSS% IED% DMG% are tied to WSE items and armors and accessories are smaller. Familiars pools are even worse than the potential pools since it has stuff native to accessories combine with WSE stuff and a lot of junk potential/bonus lines KMS already removed move still present in the familiars system.
    The Legendary Line rolls chance might look something like this:
    100%
    20%
    10%
    1%
    0.5%

    From:
    100%
    10%
    1%

    All this does is make it harder to obtain 100% as it dilutes the pool of possible results.


    Reboot would have less system enhancement system, but would have an extremely difficult system to max out on due to more added lines and an increased number of possible results. Adding Bonus Potential to Reboot would increase the number of enhancement systems by one, but it functions almost identical to Potentials.


    Another thing with tying the Bonus Potentials like features of your proposed Familiar System is that it would make gear progression seem pointless. Even if Familiars made up a substantial part of your damage range, the nature of the system has no level scaling so it possible to roll all 15 lines at early game and make item progression seem pointless. Normally items from higher tier better not only have better base stats and set effect, but they also tend to gain better stats from Potentials, Bonus Potentials, Flames and Starforce. Stats obtained from Familiars could either be so bad it is impossible to get anything good from the 5 line and huge pool, or is so broken that Black Mage Libs are done in Pensilars because the somehow perfected Familiars are so powerful they don't invest in good gear. This sounds fun and easy, but a game where there is almost no incentive to push for endgame gear isn't balanced.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited August 12
    Stacona wrote: »
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Stacona wrote: »
    They wanted to remove systems with reboot, the system bloat that they kept adding over time, you got to be conscious of this or we will repeat history and we don't need to add in unnecessary systems.
    This was never the focus, this is easy to disprove.
    What is more complicated?
    One system or two systems?
    Bonus potential is the same system split into two sets of lines. It's not two systems. All your idea does is create 5 lines on the same set which makes getting the full result (5L instead of 3L) harder.
    And 6 lines is harder than 5 lines. Stop trying to turn Heroic into Interactive, no one wants it, if we did then interactive would be the dominate server.
    No, 6 lines is easier because you only have to do three lines at a time. This is extremely flawed logic.
    Also I know of plenty who want BPot for reboot. Stop speaking as if you're some grand authority on what players want.
    We got to think about the long term health for the game and not have to make another reboot in the future because we kept on adding system after system, becomes very overwhelming for players, and stunts the growth to the game as a result because it is a nightmare to get into.
    Adding three lines to a system that already exists is fine. What you suggest is basically the exact same idea except only for reboot (which means it's harder to maintain) and is harder to achieve good results on (overwhelming for players and stunts growth). You are suggesting a plan that is worse for long term health.
    Just buff the final damage passive through changes and/or modifications. Easiest to control the balance of the game this way and is expandable in the future if more damage is ever needed.
    This is fine, but stop pretending that BPots will somehow ruin the game and that the point of reboot was something it's not.
  • StaconaStacona
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    edited August 12
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Stacona wrote: »
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Stacona wrote: »

    What is your goal?

    Your logic is 1+1=1.

    You are going to find people that agree with you and disagree with you no matter what the idea is, you are just finding bias opinions. This is a stupid way to think and do something.

    Don't care what players want, give players what they need, which includes future new players. People don't know what they want, you need to provide what they need, and what they need is what they don't know they ever wanted that thing in the first place.

    Reboot is easily provable that it was intended to be a simplified version of the game. It stripped away systems and made everything function with mesos with no trading, you gained power simply by leveling up, you fight monsters near your level, etc. I keep having to repeat myself on this.

    Bonus Potentials requires a completely different cube to use, expansion would require no new items. It is about not adding unnecessary systems that makes things more complex on the player, if a player sees more lines appear on a random outcome it will not do anything on the player, having to learn a new system NO MATTER HOW SIMILAR YOU THINK IT IS! is not the same system.

    Do not turn Heroic into Interactive, make the two worlds more different to each other, not more the same. If you want Interactive World features then go play on Interactive - I want Heroic to go back to how it was while bringing up its damage so content can be completed - you are just thinking like the current KMS Director which is ruining things at the moment.


    It is very clear messing with the potential / bonus potential system is not the answer, so just deal with the final damage passive to fix the damage issues.
  • DaxterbeerDaxterbeer
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    edited August 12
    Reboot is easily provable that it was intended to be a simplified version of the game. It stripped away systems and made everything function with mesos with no trading, you gained power simply by leveling up, you fight monsters near your level, etc. I keep having to repeat myself on this.[/qoute]

    Hover your cursor over Heroic Server and it would say:


    Heroic
    A server where you can progress through content at your own pace. Trading is restricted on these servers.


    If you do so to Interactive:


    Interactive
    A server that allows for growth through a variety of methods, including trading between players.


    Players fled to Reboot not for the challenge, but to be able to progress without paying NX for cubes and scrolls.


    Bonus Potentials requires a completely different cube to use, expansion would require no new items. It is about not adding unnecessary systems that makes things more complex on the player, if a player sees more lines appear on a random outcome it will not do anything on the player, having to learn a new system NO MATTER HOW SIMILAR YOU THINK IT IS! is not the same system.
    Add cooldown reduction flat, cooldown reduction %, chance to cooldown skip, etc. lines to familiars and add in glowing and bright cards for more variety and make the familiar system actually manage-able.

    Bruh, you said a familiar expansion would require no new items and you just mentioned adding in glowing and bright cards for ease of use.

    https://orangemushroom.net/2024/01/24/kms-ver-1-2-387-meso-changes-implemented-on-the-official-server/
    https://orangemushroom.net/2024/06/22/kms-ver-1-2-392-maplestory-milestone-flowers-blooming-in-the-moonlight/#addpot

    KMS has already made their Potential Reset system for both Pots and Bpots and none of them require a new item (in fact it removed all cubes except when they occasionally reappear in events.) Only gripe is the meso cap and removal of Occult and Bonus Occult Cubes as well as crafted cubes and cash cubes. If the system came without the meso cap or deletion of cubes, it would benefit both servers.

    My guess Reboot will inevitably receive Bonus Potentials and scrolling in exchange for their final damage and would function the same as a regular world except having no trade and having a higher meso and drop multiplier in bosses and having mesos be the main resource behind a majority of the enhancement systems. No way in hell the devs would want to reinvent familiars just to match the better bonuses provided by bpots when the bpot system already exists in all versions of the game. What you are asking for is hard for players and the developers.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited August 13
    Stacona wrote: »
    Reboot is easily provable that it was intended to be a simplified version of the game. It stripped away systems and made everything function with mesos with no trading, you gained power simply by leveling up, you fight monsters near your level, etc. I keep having to repeat myself on this.

    You have to repeat yourself because you are wrong and refuse to admit it.


    Reboot is a brand new world that brings maplestory back to its oldschool hardcore rpg roots. The monsters in this world are much stronger. But also much more rewarding, bashing baddies in this world will earn you a significant amount of mesos, more XP and equipment that's only relevant to your character's job. Useful items are only obtainable through gameplay and are not available in the cash shop. The only way they can be bought is with mesos the in-game earned currency. Item enhancement in reboot has been simplified, and the trade option disabled. To get the items you crave, you'll need to earn it the old fashioned way, through honest gameplay and hard work. So burn off those holiday calories by taking the reboot challenge

    Only a single line refers to making systems more simple, and it only addresses one system. It is glazed over and then it goes back into talking about how reboot is a server where you must earn items for a harder more earned experience.

    https://www.nexon.com/maplestory/news/update/13776/v-168-reboot-update-preview
    Are you ready to step it up a notch? The brand-new Reboot world is getting added to MapleStory! This world brings MapleStory back to its roots as a hardcore RPG. In this world, monsters are stronger and give more EXP. As you fight, you’ll receive significantly more mesos, as well as equipment relevant to your character’s job. Useful items are designed to be available through gameplay, so some items will not be available in the Cash Shop, or will only be sold for mesos instead. Item enhancement is simplified, and trades are disabled. Rather than purchasing what you need from other players or the Cash Shop, you will earn it naturally through gameplay as you collect items and grow stronger!

    Again, the language surrounding the update preview is mostly focused on self-earned items and a harder experience, once again, simplified gameplay is one line which is merged with a line about removing trading. It is nothing more than a footnote.

    https://www.nexon.com/maplestory/news/update/13793/v-168-reboot-patch-notes
    The new Reboot world brings MapleStory back to its roots as a hardcore RPG, offering many changes that will prove to be a new challenge.

    Monsters and Rewards
    Monsters in Reboot world are strong but give more EXP when defeated.
    Monsters will also drop significantly more mesos.
    Weapons and equipment dropped from monsters will only be relevant to your character's job.
    If you receive an item that cannot be used in Reboot world, a mystery bag will be given instead.

    Items and Enhancement
    Item enhancing has been simplified. Scrolls and Bonus Potentials have been removed.
    Spell Traces will not stop dropping from monsters, but they will be unusable. Instead, you can sell them to the shops for mesos.
    The trade system has been removed. You'll have to grind for money and equips on your own.
    Non-equip items and mesos can only be moved from one character to another using the the storage system. However, untradeable items cannot be stored.

    Cash Shop
    Many items have been removed from the Cash Shop and some items will instead be available for purchase with mesos. For example, Red Cube, Black Cube, Hyper Teleport Rock, Safety Charm, and much more.
    The Reboot World Cash Shop will still contain your favorite beauty parlor items and equipment covers (including 90-day versions).
    In addition you can get 90-day versions of some pets, and new items such as the Reboot Meso Sack which will award you with millions of mesos!
    The meso sack is limited to Lv. 150+ characters.
    Upon reaching Lv.150 in Reboot World, your character is awarded a large amount of free meso as a reward.
    The Reboot Meso Sack is intended for players who reach Lv. 150 and wish to ease their experience with even more meso.
    [Update 12/2] We have decided to remove the Reboot Meso Sack at this time. Please see our post about this here.
    Items not sold in the Cash Shop include Bonus Potential Cubes, Shields and Scrolls, Gachapon Tickets, Premium Surprise Style Boxes, and Platinum Scissors of Karma.
    Slot expansions are no longer available in the Cash Shop, but will be available through in-game stores.
    Maple Reward Points will still be accrued and will function the same.

    Character Details
    All characters can be created except Zero.
    6 character slots will be available to start with.
    Basic inventory slots will start off at 48 slots.
    Slot expansions for character, inventory, storage and pendant can be purchased with mesos through in-game shops.
    After creating a character, you get a snail pet and Reboot potions to help you get started.
    Reaching major level milestones (Lv.30, Lv.60, Lv.90, Lv.120, and Lv.150) on your account will grant you gift boxes containing useful items and lots and lots of mesos! You may obtain the box with multiple characters, but only one character on your account can open the gift box at each milestone.

    Other Details
    Monster Life will not be available in Reboot world.
    Some events will not be run in Reboot world.
    Some event rewards in Reboot world may be different than the rewards in the regular worlds.
    Characters cannot be moved into or out of Reboot world using the World Leap system.

    The patch notes for reboot has the least amount of marketing in it but there is still language pertaining to the idea that it is a harder server for self-earned progression.
    Once again, simplification is barely mentioned this time receiving two lines, the second line only to clarify what the first line meant.
    Monster Life being removed is not mentioned for being for simplification. You are free to interpret why they did this but it would be a guess, you cannot attribute this to either weakening the server or simplification.

    In all three of these examples multiple mentions of reboot being a harder self progression server are brought up in the language surrounding the update/idea where as simplification is always a footnote. This is how Nexon viewed the server and the goals for the server based on their marketing.


    Now let's see how the community viewed the update.


    Maplestory Global will get its own hardcore server with hardcore monsters and no cash shop. Now in this server monsters are extra strong and of course it reminds me a lot of the supreme server in maplestory euro (For context, supreme was a harder server)

    He then goes on to talk about other things in the patch. Simplification is not mentioned at all. This is just mostly reading the marketing and his opinion based on the marketing, so it makes sense that his views align with what Nexon was saying.
    Next we'll look at after the server has been out for awhile so that rather than marketing we can see what people actually thought after playing on reboot.



    Here he talks about (2:50) your items being weaker due to lack of systems but with the pro of the systems being simplified.
    Multiple mentions of the server being harder and self progression but only one footnote mention of simplification.



    Here this youtuber mentions the main difference is no trading and self-progression.
    Around 6:55 he mentions the simplified equipment and that as a result of this reboot players are weaker.
    In the next section he talks about self-progression and how swapping mains is harder.
    In the testimonials section, the player at 14:10 mentions that he likes the linear progression and the time/effort mattering.
    The next one also mentions linear progression and a lot of grind.

    Linear progression could be viewed as simplification but is not explicitly simplification.
    For the sake of playing devil's advocate, I will say that it is simplification in this case.
    The problem with this is that the players are not talking about simplification of systems, but rather simplification of progression due to the need to progress to the next set of items before being able to move on.
    You cannot just buy above your power level and skip gear sets as you can in reg.
    This leads back into self-progression being important.
    It was the simplification (via removing trade) of the progression that was important, not the simplification of the enhancement systems.

    We can gather that what matters to reboot players is self-progression, an experience where items are earned not bought and your time spent grinding is important.
    This differs from what Nexon marketed the server as and fell into a different type of "hardcore" which instead became "hard work".
    For me personally, my opinion aligns with these players. I like the fact that progression is linear and items must be earned in order to progress.

    You cannot argue that the goal of Reboot from Nexon's perspective was simplification due to how little they actually focused on that during marketing.
    You can somewhat argue that it was what players liked about reboot, except they are not talking about the same simplification you are.
    I am sorry, but you are wrong about this. No amount of kicking and screaming will make you right. This is of course, my opinion, and you are free to disagree with me but based on all the evidence I can find neither nexon nor players actually care about what you are saying.
    If you can provide evidence that players and Nexon's view of reboot aligns more with what you are saying great, otherwise it is your experience vs mine, nexon's marketing and the way I can interpret the way other players talk about the game.


    To clarify, I think adjusting FD is the easiest solution here, but I think you are misguided and confused on what the point of reboot is and that should be something you think about before making suggestions on how to fix the problems of our lack of damage.
    Which for the record, I do not think is actually a problem. There is no need for reboot to be able to clear the same content at the same rate as reg given how the experience was supposed to be a harder server where items (and boss clears imo) were earned and not given.
    A small boost to FD in the end-stages of the game is the best solution to this in order to give those who grind an extra reward for doing so while not straying from the point of reboot.
    Which is that reboot is a harder server where items/growth must be earned by climbing a ladder of progression instead of skipping steps because you were willing to pay money.

    This thread has been derailed enough by the back and forth so I won't be posting in it again.
  • StaconaStacona
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    edited August 13
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Stacona wrote: »

    Bro, you need to stick to the main topic of the thread.

    Your insecurities and seeking of constant validation of others has taken full control over you, you need to take a moment to stop and think for a moment in silence and realize what you are doing here.

    I know exactly the reason Reboot was made in the first place, it is in the name REBOOT, stop and think about what that one word means for a moment:
    "To go back to something to rebuild it as if it was a new beginning."

    I explained over and over again of what they did to Reboot the game:

    ~ Simplify the level up process: Fight monsters near your level, do this with stronger monsters that give better rewards, exp and mesos, so that you are still feeling challenged along the way. Challenged does not mean hard.
    People would fight monsters way above their level to get better exp and mesos, which would also create tougher monsters to fight as a result, Reboot aimed to fix this by making you fight monsters near your level for a logical play experience and just make the monsters tougher with stronger rewards to give that same play experience, but done in an intuitive way.

    ~ Reduce the systems bloat that was added in the game. Hence to why there is no scrolling and only potentials and no bonus potentials, no spell traces for gaining power, etc. and everything is progressed through mesos. Trading and transferring equipment removal also helped with reducing system bloat, which includes no free market or mesos market. List goes on with all the stuff they removed to create Reboot.

    ~ Smoother powering up progression with gaining damage % just for leveling up. This simplifies the game to bring it back to the "hardcore RPG experience" days of you gain more power by leveling up to tackle new content and bosses, in addition to everything costing only mesos to power up your character.

    ~ The other aim is for Reboot to feel like you earned things for yourself, hence to why the pay to win aspect was removed and no trading allowed. This is not the game is harder, this is just to fulfill the "joys of character progression".


    Problem is that anything that does not agree with you, you completely ignore, and only pay attention to the few things that aligns with your viewpoint. This creates a fantasy world you are living in rather than live in reality.


    And I don't really agree with familiars and legion artifact being in Heroic, but the damage is already done and familiars need to get reworked to be a significantly better system to deal with and to manage. These systems being in the game is more of an argument that we have too many systems already and not to add anymore.

    For Final Damage passive we can now take the opportunity to buff of Heroic's damage, but also change it in such a way that goes back to the roots of Reboot and bring back the aspect of leveling to gain character progression.