Hello Everyone! An Introduction to myself, I am a long time standing Demon Avenger main on Bera(Ex-zenith server xfer during the Bera mass exodus world xfer.) with more than 5 years of playing and maining Demon Avenger, I have come to the conclusion as stated in the title. I will now go on to explain in detail and sorry but more than once about what the issues are and how I feel that it can be easily fixed/rectified with my suggested change...
Demon Avenger's end game bossing damage is terrible. This is largely in part due to demonic frenzy's potential +33% final damage being tied to being low health! We have had TOO many end game Demon Avenger's up and quit from the neglect this issue is causing. Idiot quit... GMS's most highest funded demon avenger(THE GUY EVEN HAD A 6L 22* PERFECT OUTLAW HEART)could only clear floor 61 in Mu Lung Dojo whereas others in different classes with his equivalent funding are hitting floors in the 70s. I see the problem and I am letting you Nexon the company know what it is and a suggestion on how to fix it...
I make this decision based on the fact a guild hero with much less funding than me is soloing hard Lotus/Damien in less than half the time it takes me(22 mins) he does in 10 mins and I am as aggressive as I can be. 33% of our final damage is tied up in a skill(demonic frenzy) and a situation(final damage scaling based on low health) that makes accessing that final damage literally impossible past 3 seconds on target your full health and getting no +final damage% making it a waste. That damage should be moved else where and not be tied to being low health to obtain it. I suggest Demonic Frenzy should just be a flat +%final damage bonus not tied with low health scaling. So that we don't lose a significant portion of our classes potential final damage% locked away under a condition that can't be kept up for any meaningful periods of time(literally 2-3 seconds of dpsing when you get to true end game), it feels like a poor design intended to deflate this classes' end game damage potential...
...So many new Demon Avengers I took upon myself to nurture into the class and to just watch them up and leave as soon as they hit > lomien end game bossing this is a shame... Demonwithin, Idiot, Ayys, Beware(quit Demon Avenger moved his in game name to a new class), AvengedHell, Alexlands, Consumed, HennyHenry, slap, this is only some of the Demon Avengers I befriended and watched as they chose to either quit or leave the class as soon as they got to beyond lomien end gaming. Minus Idiot... he was more my rival. My good bud Execute is still hanging in there but reducing his play time like me... waiting and a honorable mention to my friend Twig as well not sure if she still maining Demon Avenger or just hangs around to socialize!
On to the specifics of the issues affecting Demon Avenger's end game bossing:
Too much of our damage is locked into this notion of being at low hit points to get the maximum final damage % boost from demonic frenzy. This sounds good in theory, but the reality of it is, is a low hp demon avenger during end game bossing is a DEAD demon avenger. It doesn't make sense to attempt to fight the boss aiming to lower your hps to get a boost to your damage and that theoretical +33% final damage just goes up in smoke because any time your dealing damage to the boss EFFECTIVELY like during bursts/binds we easily heal to full in a mere moment of our burst combo and we get +0 of that +33% final damage in the time we need our final damage% boosts.... THE MOST! ...IT JUST DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE, JUST A GROSS UNJUST WASTE OF POTENTIAL DAMAGE BEING LOCKED AWAY THAT WE CAN'T TRULY UTILIZE, BUT BECAUSE IT EXISTS WE GET PUNISHED AND DEAL LESS DAMAGE IN GENERAL SINCE WE CAN THEORETICALLY CALL UPON THAT +33% FINAL DAMAGE BOOST(BUT NOT REALLY, SINCE YOU EITHER DIE IMMEDIATELY FOR TRYING TO USE IT OR YOU RECHARGE TO FULL HP AND GET NO FINAL DAMAGE BONUS... IT HONESTLY FEELS LIKE A SCAM OR PERHAPS HONEST MISTAKE JUST TO DRAIN A CLASS OF POWER ARTIFICIALLY.
What I suggest to fix this problem is to remove the scaling final damage % based on low health altogether from Demonic Frenzy AND give the skill a flat 10% final damage boost for activating the skill in lieu of the scaling potential +33% final damage that is being under utilized 99.99% of the time in end game boss fights. Honestly we are currently not even utilizing even 1% of that skills final damage% in real end game bossing scenarios with or with out a Breath of Divinity ring(bod ring users get absolute 0% final damage from Demonic Frenzy as the Dawn Shield skill ensures that you have 100% health under the shield and it was intentionally designed so that Demon Avenger's skill HP costs come out of the regenerating shield rather than the actual HP underneath it). *Note Demonic Frenzy is not our mobbing skill.
Other important factors to note:
-Breath of divinity ring, our skills hp consumption comes out of the recharging shield instead of our hps under the shield makes it impossible to get any of the up to +33%final damage from demonic frenzy period(making the final damage on the skill = to +0% all the time if your a Breath of Divinity ring using demon avenger.)
-The new 4th 5th job skill for Demon Avenger Revenant, I assumed how easily it was going to be to keep my hps at 1 and being unable to die to get the maximum final damage boost from demonic frenzy while also getting the added damage procs from the Revenant skill itself(this was supposed to be the game changing skill to solo hard lucid or so I thought)... what I found was, its use can't lower my hps to 1 while i am effectively bursting a binded target(I heal to full too fast to get any sort of meaningful +final damage% from the skill), THIS SKILL IS NOT the game changing burst Demon Avenger's needed for hard lucid solos until the underlying issue with 33% of our classes final damage being locked away in circumstances that CAN'T HAPPEN or at least not even for any meaningful shots of time to benefit burst/bind combos, it is not even enough to pose any kind of damage advantage. IT IS JUST A PAPER TIGER any time we get on our target effectively our damage range decreases and we are punished for it, this mechanic needs to be changed to be more fun and rewarding for sticking to our target. (Funny note I added Revenant to my skill build for MU Lung Dojo and lost a dojo floor, that's pathetic!)
In Ending:
Please Nexon remove the potential +33% final damage based on low hp scaling from Demonic Frenzy and give us a more fair rounded bonus like +10% final damage at all times for the skill instead. I rather have something than truly nothing (Nothing being the conclusion I have come to after I have viewed and studied the current demonic frenzy's mechanic in its current state.) Low health damage scaling is just not a good functionality for our class. It is essentially equivalent to next to nothing of that potential +33% final damage, you will only ever utilize <1% of that final damage% in reality). Plus this will make it much easier to balance the classes damage to other classes since you won't have to factor in the possibility to use that +33% final damage(which is just not there, truthfully in another sense you could call this skill +33% final damage for the 1st hit +20% final damage for the 2nd hit +10% final damage for the 3rd final damage and then +0% onward cause your at full health... SO HOW MUCH OF A BOOST DID U REALLY GET OUT OF THAT +33% final damage maybe <1% if you averaged it out lol!? a boost for a few attacks and then lower damage scaling than most other classes from then on out as penance for the impossible possibility of having +33% final damage from this skill LOL, such annoyance!
Demon Avenger's damage has fallen below the pack and I mean like the lower middle of the pack and this little final damage trick played on us by Nexon of hiding and locking away 33% of our final damage within our own classes' skill and putting an unrealistic requirement of being near death for starters but the moment you jump your target to burst your no longer on deaths door in literally 2 seconds once on the target so how much burst did u actually do in that 1-2 seconds of your 10-15 second burst/bind combo? Keep in mind as it scales up in the 1st 2 seconds you further get less of that 33% final damage till it is 0% in THE 1ST 2 SECONDS OF YOUR BURST COMBO... it is LITERALLY FAKE RANGE MEANT TO HURT DEMON AVENGER'S POWER & SCALING NEXON MAKE IT FAIR PLEASE!
Adding a petition to sign for support of the issues I brought up.
Thank you so much for any support this receives.
Comments
yup after hard lomien they quit. Yup and then some 30k stat other class solos hard Lomien in half the time that a 70k equivalent stat Demon avenger solos it by... doesn't seem balanced to have that much disparity difference... does it?
Another similar suggestion would be to implement HP onto the Advanced Gollux Scrolls and Basic Gollux Scrolls equivilant to the amount of Primary Stat it gives. Currently the Advanced Gollux Scrolls give 3 STR, DEX, INT, LUK Primary Stat, and 4 Weapon ATT/Magic ATT. Looking on the Spell Trace system, a 70% STR success rate scroll that were to give 3 STR is equivalent to a 70% HP success rate scroll that were to give 150 HP. Based off of this, I believe that the Advanced Gollux Scrolls should also give an additional 150 HP/MP and Basic Gollux Scrolls give an additional 50 HP/MP due to the fact that STR, DEX, INT, and LUK is not Demon Avenger's primary stat and therefore we do not benefit from the results on scrolls as much compared to other classes that do, making end-game content between Demon Avenger and other classes a bigger gap.
One final suggestion that I would like to make is to increase the HP% stat equivalent to All Stat% from Maple Warrior 31. Currently, Maple Warrior will match the stat between All Stats% and HP% precisely until level 30 where we are only able to get up to 15% until 31 yet gives 16% All Stats but only 15% HP. Maple Warrior 31 can be obtained by using the skill Decent Combat Orders which should increase all of the 4th Job Skills by 1 more maximum level. It almost feels like Nexon Korea forgot to give Demon Avengers an additional 1% HP at Maple Warrior 31, hopefully we can be heard it would be much appreciated coming from a person that played the game for more than 12 years now. We really enjoy the game a lot and we're thankful for all the updates so far.
Awsome, Thanks for the support Tim! Fully agree with your contribution there as well. Twig is planning to join in soon. Another thing to note is go through the patch history's while every class is getting buffs over the years... new skills aside Demon Avenger just gets these side adjustments to our jump/glide skill(toggle), a skill that shows you how much hp we get per starforce. But we get passed over for buffs time and time again, not that I care but it just really shows now since most classes are out dpsing(damage per second) at less than half the equivalent stat conversion(less than half the funding and beating us out in a damage over time race). I would definitely like to see that +33% final damage adjusted and moved elsewhere or changed to a flat bonus in the middle, it will go a good chunk of the way to fix the class dpm disparity here.
The damage cap is not the issue, well I mean it was a little bit for Idiot before he quit because to get around this classes problem he spent I think he posted 75 thousand on his Demon Avenger over the years as a means to push the door down over our problem the absolute crazy way. ALL HIS GEAR ALL OF IT WAS 22* 5/6L ARCANES almost all bis and I am sure his WSE are a true sight and wonder to behold... HE DID ALL THAT! STILL WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH WE TALKING FLOOR 61 on Mu Lung Dojo any other class with equivalent gear would be in the 70s!
I wish Crisis HM Ring can't be used by classes that don't use mana, Demon Avengers, don't have mana or it would be a no brainer to pick up lol.
I remember playing reboot and trying to main DA, early game bosses like chaos crimson queen felt really good to figth against because she did flat damage, making DA maybe the only class that could tank her attacks while dealing meaningful damage in return.
My brother and i used to play reboot, me as a DA and my brother as a shadower, besides the Chaos crimson queen fight, i felt like burden in every boss fight because most bosses deal % damage, making the supossed tankiest class just weak by not being able to heal nor burst, i can definetly relate to your post, i felt like DA on paper makes sense but in practice its a diferent story. i ended up quiting reboot and starting over on bera as a cannoneer.
The thing with Demonic frenzy, maybe they could give it a 2nd stage cast, like thief's last resort, that fixes your HP to an optimal "burst range" by a set time or something.
the amount of ppl quiting DA its just sad, give this class some love like you did to illium nexon.
Kisses.
Thanks for showing support Twig, it's funny so few of us now end game. It is hard trying to build up the community, we're bleeding out(no pun intended lol). At least us 3 are holding a torch and have the patients to try to stick it out.
There are still a few up and coming demon avengers on Bera that we are fighting the good fight for yet, not just ourselves. McSwagerSon made it to floor 55 dojo not long ago, a quiet demon Avenger named Demoin is climbing slowly to end game, Pheaktra is about the same Dojo level as me. Still have my feelers out and help every single Demon Avenger I come across, free quick start gears, buddy list+support when I find them. Funny most new Demon Avengers wind up being level 3 link/legion mules and done. Come on Nexon help us stubborn players that don't want to abandon this class please.
I feel like you would need to do more than just a flat 10% dmg on frenzy, but thats a start.
As to how HP scales, I dont know how to balance that, I just don't understand why Innate HP on gear isnt normalized in proportion to the other main stats.
Its missing on some gear and HP value is higher than main stats on other peices.
Also Starforcing certain pieces gives you no bonus to hp, just str our secondary stat.
Problem is DA isn't weak at the start, just late to endgame it really falls off.
Regarding scrolls to contain more HP, I also agree as it affects the DA's late game damage scaling but I just want to hope that there may be potential changes coming to benefit DA's, slowly but surely or I'm being too optimistic. One example I can think of is that before, Dojo Gloves only gave All Stat % but Nexon substituted All Stat % for Max HP % for gloves eventually. It was years ago but it was sort of a big change for me. So in conclusion, I am hoping they can implement for changes to better help DA's.
On a lighter note Ghiblee replied to my discord post and mentioned she would relay the feedback to the team for review but ultimately might of been stated to silence me but here is to carrying the torch lol.
Yeah dojo gloves were not the only spot we were left out:
-Removal of mr. Lee's island and the Wilderness hunter buff +100 wa +10,000 hp 30 min 1 a day buff... Demon Avenger hit the hardest 10k hp from a buff gone over night!
-Everything Timmy mentioned*
-No +hp dark totems from lords of darkness halloween event
-The early sets on the older gear sets had a lot of %hp set effects and we got punished later on our future subsequent gear sets due to that fact, such as with the 15% hp removal from canonneers level 3 link skill and then it changed to a level 6 adventure link with far less hp 1/3rd of the equivalent hp to be about exact.
-look through the patch history on orangemushroom, our buff history is also proof as aside from new class 5th job skills we are over looked time and time again and when it comes our turn we essentially get more detailed skill descriptions(starforce conversion hp skill detailed tool tip lol) and no actually range buffs when the average any other class is already on to their 3rd buff... it is just crazy, I am starting to understand how Jett feels as a class as up until their most recent rework the class was left.... broken. But we Demon Avengers just need access to this final damage % that is being held hostage in a poor skill mechanic. The poor skill mechanic being low health to access the final damage%(skill:Demonic Frenzy).
Oh Thanks Dude, yeah good idea, Even though I am more inclined to just freeing up that final damage% being held hostage inside demonic frenzy skill adding a second cast stage on to demonic frenzy to make that final damage fully accessible for X amount of time or add 2X max final damage% from demonic frenzy when under the effects of Revenant our 35 second up 5 min cool down 4th 5th job skill, that was intended to be our burst(which it just isn't enough damage)and our I-Frame rolled into one.
Yeah it is what it is, I making a f2p adele on the side for the past year or so(was making warrior gear b4 Adele existed) with the rules no potential past unique/ rare bpot and have been dumping all my available mcc's into his gear but even after over a year still need to finish a few pieces yet lol. I will never main another class other than Demon Avenger, but making a side weekly bosser over time for extra easy mesos can be helpful even if it is only gonna wind up being like 200m a week for the 1 adele lol... But now that I have made her gear up mostly, I am honestly beside myself 'cause if i don't equip the gear I made for her I can sell the pieces for like 1b a piece or better as i rolled 3L str% at unique on a good amount of those pieces and could cash in a good 12-15b which would take me lord knows how long to earn back by actually bossing with the Adele lol.
But Hopefully we can get a tune up eventually to fix some nagging issues brought up here. Survivability definitely isn't the issue any more but access to the final damage locked away in demonic frenzy and its stupid low health higher damage mechanic the bane of prolly 95% of all quit Demon Avengers I believe this mechanic to be at the source of that suffering!
Yeah not to mention they gave Adventure Warriors a jump skill similar to Demon's high jump and horizontal move in terms of motility all adventure warriors can now Lucid Golem jump now. Us Demons used to be one of few classes able to perform that, not any more =(
Demon Avengers were force to play with minimal HP to maintain Demon Frenzy’s maximum damage boost which lowered survivability. To compensate, the recovery penalty below a certain amount of HP has been removed and Revenant’s performance has been increased.
- Shield Charge: You can now only use this skill if you have a shield equipped. Action delay has been decreased by 26%.
-Shield Chasing(Nether Shied GMS name): You can now only use this skill if you have a shield equipped.
- Armor Break-(Nether Slice GMS name): Action delay has been decreased by 9%.
-Demon Frenzy: (Demonic Frenzy GMS name) will now only decrease your HP up to 30%. You will no longer receive a recovery restriction below that amount of HP. The final damage boost has been decreased from 3% to 2% (at level 25). The maximum final damage boost has been increased to 35%.
blood-feast Blood Feast: In Will phase 1, the charge will not be cancelled if you move to the other dimension while charging.
-Revenant: You will no longer be affected by deadly status effects while using this skill. Cooldown has been decreased from 300 seconds to 240 seconds, duration has been decreased from 35 seconds to 30 seconds, base damage received after the skill ends has been decreased from 5% max HP to 1% max HP (at level 25).
I am going to give my opinion on the patch changes recently announced(listed above) on orangemushroom and about why Demon Avengers are in this shameful rut and our damage is being heavily out paced by most other classes, is simply we are being skipped and Nexon is giving the attention in unneeded areas and it has been continuing like this the past over a dozen patches or so and when you see buffs handed out to the same classes over and over and we get skipped for buffs, instead we get tool tip updates and clarity of what skills functions are doing what in the back ground like how much +hp from a star from starforce gives where once we had to guess lol or we get buffs to skills that we simply cease using at end game just to make it look like we were given attention...
-Shield Charge: unused END GAME, any changes to it are largely left unfelt, so again the illusion they came to our class to spruce it up and really skipping us. Demon Avenger classes 1st to 4th job progression is fine... No New Demon Avenger's will EVER complain that the class levels too slow early on If you don't intend to buff our skills to be used for our end game, don't waste your time on 1st to 3rd jobs for us! We are good there unless you want to make passive effects of under used skills like bat swarm(change to be a passive: spawn bats while randomly attacking with shield skill for instance)/shield charge(maybe turn the skill into a back pedal, charge backward instead of forwards the opposite of demon strike giving the old skill a new function)
-Shield Chasing: So casting Nether Shield WITH OUT a shield equipped makes just about as much logical real life sense as being able to deal more damage while having less health(how can you possibly deal more damage when your wounded near death if anything you will hit harder the more health you have and the better you feel no? So why even make things make sense with reality when this is a game? Again this change I felt was thrown in to show that something was done for us... but it wasn't the right something. Get on the same page as us Nexon plz and make better changes for us!
-ARMOR BREAK(NETHER SLICE GMS name): EVERY END GAME DEMON AVENGER IS ACTIVELY AIMING TO GAIN ENOUGH PDR SOURCES TO COMPLETELY REMOVE THIS SKILL FROM HIS/HER ROTATION. You want to make a meaningful change here Nexon? Make the physical defense debuff from this skill a passive debuff that can be applied by any exceed skills! Stop putting love and attention in skills in which this class will continue to not use or if you do revisit them. please change the fundamentals of under utilised skills instead of just a stupid minor skill change that you just throw in to make it seem like you cared...
Sorry this is my stone thrown at Nexon to try to knock some sense in them for this change to Demon Avengers on the most recent kms patch notes. Demon Avengers survivability was fine BEFORE this patch. What was not fine was the access to the potential then 33% final damage now 35% final damage FROM Demonic Frenzy and it doesn't matter if you increased the final damage to +100%, under its current mechanic it's junk and is misleading as you will only ever access 1-3% of that final damage as an average but because of the potential to have 35% final damage from the skill the rest of the classes damage suffers and there is no realistic scenario to fully use and utilize that 35% final damage% from the skill since you can't stay at 30% hp, 1% hp, what ever % hp they want to set it to doesn't matter, we under utilize it 99%+ when we are damaging effectively we are 100% health and have no means to access that 35% final damage for any meaningful lengths of time and I feel it was designed this way as a predatory way to deflate the range of an old class to push you into something else lol? As far as I am concerned the low health to final damage mechanic is PURE POISON AND IS THE ABSOLUTE #1 PROBLEM FOR THIS CLASSES END GAME VIABILITY AND THE NUMBER ONE REASON SO MANY END GAME DEMON AVENGERS END UP QUITTING. How ridiculous the mechanic of dealing more damage the lower your health is, is... it is an unenjoyable mechanic chasing people from this class and logically from a real life stand point how do you even deal more damage if you are knocking on death's door? It made sense to you Nexon to change nether shield skill to require a shield equipped to cast it, but you kept the classes low health to increased damage mechanic that is pure poison to any class in this game including this one. I rather it be changed to damage scaling the lower health your target has... that would be amazing or to just a flat boost for using the skill, this low health to final damage scaling HAS TO GO, the class actually needs to be steered completely away from the low health for damage, it is bad enough this very deserving class has the hardest time of any class in the game of dealing with bosses %hp attacks(we get hurt the worst of any other class in the game plus the fact the end game bosses have been shifted to attack the healing mechanic in general has just death knelled us in recent times.)
I used to play this char for a long time then quit it to switch to Ark.
Then, after awake, DA now has a good skill which helps me survive in bossing. Before that, I'm so weak and easily die by %HP skill, OHKO... and if I did not buff the attack speed it's very hard to avoid the boss attack.
But yeah, sure, maybe the equipment for DA is cheaper than other classes somehow but the effection is not equal. The range looks good but the output damage is so low.
To play DA well, the player has to very out range to the boss or know everything about theirs attack, but it still but hurt about the time (to kill the boss) and the time you have to practice all over again (and if you fail you have to wait for 30m). And if with that item lines (not mention about the range), Starforce... and the knowledge about the boss, I pretty sure that is much easier with many other classes.
Yeah, I agreed that need to have some buff for DA, not in the damage but the mechanic of it. How about more DMG reduction (include HP%) when more HP loss. How about the frenzy is stick with our attack (like using our blood to enhance the attack, like the poison on the blade
Ang about the final dmg (which is very low on DA) it may be used as a buff after the demon blast, more charge more final buff, or just press to cancel animation and for a burst or basic final buff. About the blade, which another choice of DA between burst in a short time and lower damage or keep it for more DPM, it's nothing much to say about this skill just so so, so how about it help DA to reduce the damage? Or block OHKO, or using as a threshold (each blade count as ?%HP, a virtual shield) of course if you take more hit, so your damage from this skill reduces but it helps DA who very paper in many cases. You could survive, you could tank so you could do more hit to the boss right?
Conclusion: DA needs a buff to have a better damage output in the late game. Or if Nexon wants who play this class have a very good PC (high FPS), good connection (no lag - low ms), godlike reflections, deep knowledge about the boss and DA mechanic so maybe this char will shine as bright as other classes (not all) with the same luck and investment in the items, nodes, link skills, titles, medals...
PS: I'm just a bad player who has 245 DA with 25 lv nodes 600k HP still struggling in Lucid, Lotus, Damien. Thanks for reading.
Thanks for the response, I'll take any help to keep this post alive... Honestly Nexon has much more enormous problems right now, not sure how maple is gonna handle the kms probability systems FIASCO that affects all versions of the game that stem from it. I can't see how they are gonna be able to help anyone but themselves right now, given the situation they put themselves in... ugh.