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January 2025 KMST Feedback

StaconaStacona
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edited January 10 in Suggestions, Feedback, and Requests
Three points I am bringing up here from the most recent KMST (Korea MapleStory Test Server) are the link skills, noblesse skills, and boss crystal sell limit.


Boss Crystal Sell Limit:
Whether this actually affects players or not, if the Boss Crystal Sell Limit was cut in half to 90 from 180 would make the GMS (Global MapleStory) audience extremely angry and this is in your best interest to have NO CHANGES for us and gain a win just from that!

Players don't want the feeling like they are being shackled down by a ball and chain, does not matter whether that ball is pure lead or a balloon filled with helium, players will be really mad just with something like this being implemented with the max limit being cut in half.

I got the foresight to know how GMS players will respond to a change like this...


Link Skills:
~ No Mesos Cost for going past 4 link transfers is good.
~ Unlimited Link Transfers is good.

What is missing is that the 12 additional Link Skills to assign to each character should always be active on every character all of the time rather than only on one character at a time!

This would be so good to have and remove the unnecessary annoyance of having to re-assign the link skills to the character every time you log into it! You would still have the 12 additional link skill hard limit, but at least this way all of your characters always have 12 additional link skills active at all times and makes it much more convenient and less annoying to play on multiple different characters.


Noblesse Skills:
Currently the cooldown is double the duration (at max level) of the skill which makes it feel like an active.

~ Cooldown is reduced to 5 minutes from 60 minutes.
~ Mesos Cost for using the skill while on cooldown is reduced to 5,000,000 from 30,000,000.

This sounds great and all, but at this point these are passive skills with an annoyance factor. The skills have a 5 minutes cooldown, are not a party buff or atmosphere buff like Hero's Echo is, and last for 30 minutes for most people at this point.

This is a case where fully commit to the change and make them passive skills that are always active. Remove the mild annoyance of having to re-activate them every 30 minutes since they are 100% uptime anyways with this change. The game is in desperate need of reducing the amount of actives we need to use, increase the level of ease on players and reduce these mild annoyances.

Also, finish off decent skills to make them ALL into passive skills. Decent Speed Infusion and Decent Advanced Bless becoming passive is a good start, but the other skills need to become passive skills as well at this point like Decent Sharp Eyes, Decent Combat Orders, Decent Holy Symbol, and Decent Hyper Body [this one is only for Kanna and Demon Avenger for the most part] (the real more powerful buff will override the passive decent skill version).






Comments

  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited January 11
    Agreed with everything here except the crystal cap, if Nexon wishes to increase the crystal price by at least 2x that would be a fine change, this would eliminate the need to have as many mules doing bossing or if you want a lot of characters, you can focus on the hardest bosses that those characters can clear without not having enough time to get all your bossing done.
    Lowering the cap is a good change if they increase the price of crystals to be roughly the same as before once adjusted.
    If the price of the crystal isn't increased then leave the system the same or even remove the cap since doing 180 bosses in one week is already an insane number.
  • StaconaStacona
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    edited January 11
    Fuhreak wrote: »

    They didn't change the crystal price, they only cut the cap in half.

    Now if it is just for economy reasons for interactive worlds, then double Heroic World's crystal price with half crystals cap we can sell, then people wouldn't complain about that.

    99% of players don't go over 90 crystals in a week, but it is more the principle of being restricted is what people are not going to like and it would prevent unneeded backlash for no reason for a thing that people are not going over this amount anyways. So cutting the cap in half is just a bad look that changes nothing, so keep it the same and avoid the bad look entirely.

    And the cap is needed to stop the one guy from ruining his life because he has no self-restraint. Not like 180 crystals is interfering with anyone's play pattern anyways since we are not hitting that cap to begin with. No change is best change on this one.


    The reason they are doing it is the stupidest one.

    With the new Legion Champion coming out they think it will promote more people making mains (probably will do nothing in reality, going to be honest here).

    So to counter the might see an increase in mesos flow they are cutting the cap in half which is stupid because if more people are going to make more mains then they need more mesos to properly fund all of those characters, especially to the level to do these very late game and end game bosses solo. The current way things are DOES NOT SUPPORT multi-maining whatsoever!

    So now they are trying to push people in this direction (forceful multi-maining is a mistake since this is not what everyone wants to do) in a game that does not support it currently and is actively nerfing this aspect to make it even harder to multi-main. It is all stupid logic that contradicts and counters itself...

    Alternatively, if they reduced the mesos for starforcing and cubing with crystal cap reduction would also work out.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited January 12
    If 99% of players aren't hitting 90 crystals a week then doubling the price of each crystal would be nothing more than a SF/Cubing meso requirement nerf anyway.
    A lot more players than you think easily go over 90 each week.
    For those of us who do go over 90 crystals, because yes some people do hit the crystal cap and yes it does take a long time and interfere with our playing,
    This allows us to focus on the stronger bosses without having to do weaker ones that are only done for meso anyway.
    If they do this it supports people who wish to multi-main as well as those who do not.

  • StaconaStacona
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    edited January 12
    Fuhreak wrote: »

    If you are doing daily bosses, yes, which affects the new player mesos.

    But half the starforce and cubing cost is better as it won't affect the economy state for interactive worlds than doubling the crystal mesos. Heroic worlds doesn't matter which you do since there is no economy to worry about.


    The problem is that they are only doing a nerf from a hypothetical extreme outcome that may or may not happen WITHOUT giving any kind of appropriate buff to go alongside it to better support multi-maining.

    This KMS director loves being super forceful in playing the game exactly how he wants you to play rather than giving freedom and options to play multiple different ways.

    I am fine with champion legion encouraging boss solos (you can achieve the quest with a practice clear, does not have to consume the real run), but specifically for bossing you should have powerful supports to help people get into bossing and give an option to allow players to having an easier time with bossing instead of forcing sweat mode bossing or nuking the boss in under 5 minutes.

    Expanding how many people do bosses will only help grow the game and benefit everyone as it will result in an easier time to find boss parties since it will push players into harder bosses. And after enough time of experiencing the bosses in longer fights rather than sub 5 minutes, they will eventually try a solo or two to push their own limits further. They need to fix the foundation in order for something like champion legion to work out long term.

    Short term, you got to better support mult-character and character progression overall a lot better. Can do the boss crystal cap nerf, but it has to be accompanied at the same time with a buff in another area for better character progression - like reducing star force and cubing costs, for example.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited January 12
    Stacona wrote: »
    This KMS director loves being super forceful in playing the game exactly how he wants you to play rather than giving freedom and options to play multiple different ways.
    This is very ironic given that you want to rework half the characters in the game to be something they're not.
    I am fine with champion legion encouraging boss solos (you can achieve the quest with a practice clear, does not have to consume the real run), but specifically for bossing you should have powerful supports to help people get into bossing and give an option to allow players to having an easier time with bossing instead of forcing sweat mode bossing or nuking the boss in under 5 minutes.
    Players already have this option. You can play a class that is easier to survive on and requires less "hands".
    You can play with one of the classes that offers utility/healing and allows you to be less skilled at the game but you still have to have enough skill to not just die out instantly.
    You can use various "cheese" strategies on bosses to make them less cumbersome.
    No participation awards. The game's bossing is designed for those who are good at the game and want to test their skills.
    If you get your "powerful supports" it will just change the game into something it's not.
    You are being super forceful in trying to get everyone to play the game how you want them to play, even if you won't agree that you are.
  • StaconaStacona
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    edited January 12
    Fuhreak wrote: »

    Not changing the class at all, all of it is just buffs to the class, the class either plays the same or plays better for the user with the same playstyle. Just bringing up the supports so they can actually support and do their job properly and deliver on that fantasy.

    And this direction is a lot better for the game for many reasons, includes allowing players to have an easier time bossing on the class that they like playing on. Most people do not want to be a wind archer, buccaneer, or dark knight, etc., so supports open up players to play the class that they like and able to boss as if they had the ease of these other easy solo classes.

    The other thing that is the most important is that it boosts the variance to non-solo bossing since based on who you have in the party, will change up how you interact with that boss. Meanwhile, if everyone is a damage dealer or only have insignificant supports, then the boss fight plays the same every week and players will get bored and eventually quit with no way to have any dynamic changes from week to week.

    Support players also naturally want to help out others of all kinds, which especially affects new players which is the most important aspect to game growth is improving the new player experience in multiple different ways. And having Maple be as complex as it is, having a real player there helping out a new player ends up being the best tutorial.


    Operation support's most important aspect is to balance boss fights with supports NOT existing, make sure supports are brought up significantly to properly do their job, and the combination of these two will have support properly fulfill their role of helping others out and become an option and not a mandatory requirement to clear each boss.

    Most people would opt into playing with a support than playing without one.

    This is good for the game and you let it happen, you just focus on balancing the supports among each other and not nerfing them into the ground because they are more desirable to have in a party than a damage dealer.
  • DaxterbeerDaxterbeer
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    edited January 12
    And this direction is a lot better for the game for many reasons, includes allowing players to have an easier time bossing on the class that they like playing on. Most people do not want to be a wind archer, buccaneer, or dark knight, etc., so supports open up players to play the class that they like and able to boss as if they had the ease of these other easy solo classes.

    What kind of logic is this? If someone doesn't like a class, they just don't play it. If someone has trouble surviving with a class, a buffed support does nothing but just increase that player's dependence on that class and that player won't know how to play without that support's presence. If someone cannot survive a boss, they have to practice more or just accept they cannot do it or wait for a balance to make the boss more forgiving or a patch to give themselves more utility. Buffing Bishop to play better at your class doesn't make sense unless your plan is to tank every attack since Bishop will heal you. If that is the case, that isn't playing and Kim and Wonki made the wise decisions of creating fail conditions to remove the weak from the game.

    Boss equipment is given out to those as rewards for knowing the bossing mechanics, having control of your character and building them strong. No one is entitled to them automatically just because they are high enough to enter Limbo or some other boss. Strong players don't want to carry players who are too weak or have no clue what they are doing because they are pretty much forced to shared the rewards with them, deal with a cheaper crystal or forfeit a clear because the fool didn't know his actions cause the team to fail.
    Fuhreak
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited January 13
    Stacona wrote: »
    Not changing the class at all, all of it is just buffs to the class, the class either plays the same or plays better for the user with the same playstyle. Just bringing up the supports so they can actually support and do their job properly and deliver on that fantasy.
    Like when you wanted to turn Phantom, who isn't a support into a support?
    And this direction is a lot better for the game for many reasons, includes allowing players to have an easier time bossing on the class that they like playing on. Most people do not want to be a wind archer, buccaneer, or dark knight, etc., so supports open up players to play the class that they like and able to boss as if they had the ease of these other easy solo classes.
    So I guess all those people I see playing the unpopular classes, their opinions don't matter? Their playstyle doesn't matter?
    If someone doesn't want to play WA, Bucc, Dark, it's because they don't like the class. If they did they'd be playing it.
    Changing it so that they don't have to learn the class isn't going to make them like it.
    The other thing that is the most important is that it boosts the variance to non-solo bossing since based on who you have in the party, will change up how you interact with that boss. Meanwhile, if everyone is a damage dealer or only have insignificant supports, then the boss fight plays the same every week and players will get bored and eventually quit with no way to have any dynamic changes from week to week.
    The same thing happens even in your scenario. It's not like having a support changes the way the boss fight works every week. It's the same every week.
    You would learn the way the boss works, do the same thing every week, because there are no "dynamic changes" week to week with or without supports.
    Support players also naturally want to help out others of all kinds, which especially affects new players which is the most important aspect to game growth is improving the new player experience in multiple different ways. And having Maple be as complex as it is, having a real player there helping out a new player ends up being the best tutorial.
    You don't have to be a support to do this. Just be a person who actually cares about players.
    You however, don't seem to actually care about what players want and only care about what you think they want.
    You don't actually listen to what people say, you just think you do.
    You are unironically just as bad as the current director about trying to force the game into a certain playstyle.
    Unlike the director though, you can't force the game into your desired playstyle.

    Pay attention to smegas, if people have a question, help them. Check the boss menu from time to time and see if anyone is asking for a carry.
    Don't just give them the boss either, make sure they actually understand the boss and help them to understand it before you just nuke it.
    You don't need to flip the game on its head to make a difference or make the game a better place, you just have to go out there and help players.
  • StaconaStacona
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    edited January 14
    Fuhreak wrote: »

    Of course Phantom is a support now, the fact that he can still bishop skills makes him one plus he has his own debuffs.

    Truth of the matter, Phantom needs a full remake and I still suggested to keep all of the core gameplay aspects that he has now. How the skill looks like is one thing, but as long as the player can still have the same gameplay feel or an improved version of the same gameplay, then it does not alienate the player.


    What?

    I am saying the opposite, not force players to play on the "free" bossing characters and instead allow players to continue playing on the class they like and grant them the option to enjoy that level of "free" bossing if they party with supports being meaningful powerful and impactful to the game.

    Another change that should be implemented is, they might only be able to do this for Heroic Worlds (Interactive has trading anyways so bossing is optional over there), is make ALL boss rewards always maximum value regardless if you are solo or full party - so boss crystals max mesos always and rewards are all client side and no longer shared for anything.

    The First Descendant does this and it is fantastic and people still challenge themselves with solo clears despite not receiving any benefits for doing so.

    Now, The First Descendant also has HP scaling based on how many players are in the boss room (max party size is 4, so the boss has 4 set HP values). Which that may or may not be needed for Maple with a change like this (though since this can only be done with no trading allowed it cannot have dynamic boss HP values since you can only do a change like this for Heroic Worlds).

    Heroic Worlds only because there is no trading.
    Interactive Worlds if you did this type of change then 6-man parties would 6x the boss crystal mesos and 6x the boss rewards which would negatively affect the economy in multiple ways.


    When you make supports powerful and do it right, each support will offer a different experience and feel than the last, despite yourself playing the same class against the same boss. Nothing changes if you play in a planned party that is already established and is the same every week, or you are playing solo bossing.

    For example, Bishop, Lynn, and Illium would all be healer-protectors, but all do it in different ways. So their main role might be to keep the party alive and from dying out, they do it in different ways to each other which results in a different way the other classes will interact with the boss to best utilize their defensive and/or utility skills.

    And then my idea for someone like Lara is to create a radically different way for players to play the game (this consequently would result in Lara would be the support for more advanced players and is less newbie friendly than the others would be) - that is my idea of what an Enchanter would fulfill is someone that drastically alters how players would play the game in some form.
    (And selfishly, would be the changes Lara needs to truly make it great to play as.)

    While the vision for Zero, Kanna, and Ice/Lightning Mage would change things up with constant slows, binds, etc. against the boss outside of the standard 90s on-target cooldown bind or absolute bind from 6-min skills. This constant crowd control against the boss alters how you experience fighting that boss as well outside of if you would have soloed that boss or done it with a different party setup.

    And then there are other supports that would generally just help the party out and have low impact with changing how you interact with the boss in any meaningful way.

    And damage giving buffers are moved in a direction that the perception seems significantly overpowered, but in reality the impact of the buff is extremely low. (This sub-category would be the only one that truly needs to be watched out for since defense and utility skills only help players survive a long boss fight, while offensive skills have the risk of making an end game boss be cleared way sooner than intended.)
    Overall, buffs could still work and the healthiest state for them to be in is perception of the skill feeling way stronger than reality since perception is gameplay, how strong it actually is has no gameplay fun to it.

    Defense and utility skills being strong and delivering on the support fantasy is the best direction to go in overall since it is the safest thing to do, will never risk any party clearing a boss way sooner than intended, and helps fix the bind-and-burst gameplay by making it easier for players to play out a long boss fight.

    And players that play out a long boss fight are actually learning the boss and its mechanics, with another clears with the training wheels on, they may eventually want to try fighting the boss solo one day to really push themselves further.


    We need an ultimate fix from a game level.

    The community will adjust and change only when the systems of the game change. If you establish a sweaty, try hard, and solo game only then those are the types of players that will be left in the game because everyone else quit.

    You have a way that is OPTIONAL to help players out and have an easier time to do boss fights WITHOUT TAKING AWAY from the try-hard sweaty solo players is the best thing for the game.

    ~ You ease players into bossing this way to grow how many players are willing to boss to make it easier to find boss parties with a deeper pool of players.

    ~ Solo players and try-hards still have their challenging boss fights if they don't want to play with supports. Nothing changes, literally the opposite to forced gameplay.

    ~ And you finally deliver on the support fantasy with having meaningfully powerful and truly impactful level of support play to help grow the support player base, this includes making the game more appealing to players that only want to play as a support class.
  • StaconaStacona
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    edited January 14
    Daxterbeer wrote: »

    This is having an elitist and gatekeeper mindset. Stop.

    This type of thinking and having a game like this is how a game dies out, WoW is like this and it is a dying game.

    You can keep bossing challenging for the sweats and people who like soloing bossing can still solo the boss, nothing will change with that. But it is very important to make the game able to be played by the vast majourity of casual and less skilled players.

    Excluding bosses in need of a rework (Darknell, Will, Black Mage, and Seren for a soft-rework), I don't want them to make the game easier to broaden the pool of players that do bosses. I rather see supports be strong so that this makes the people that actually play supports happy because it is a buff to the class directly - so both delivering on the impactful support fantasy and makes their class better to play for solo bossing too - while opening up the option to make bossing easier for the majourity of players that struggle with bossing because the current bossing players is a very low single digit % of the player base and lower than that.

    You should never care about what someone else is doing.
    As long as your own game experience is not affected, while making the game more enjoyable to way more people, then that is a win for everyone.

    Let your own personal achievements be your own accomplishments, and stop letting your ego and insecurities prevent players from being able to do more in the game and enjoy the game more because you want to be validated so badly. The main person that should care about your achievements is yourself and not to let anyone else bring your achievements up or down.

    Learn to enjoy and have fun with the game and don't gatekeep others from enjoyment and or experiencing content.

    Because the alternative to keeping supports non-existent is they make the game easier directly, and now you lose out on your harder boss fights all because you did not push operation make supports powerful. While fundamentally still not fixing the week to week issues or promoting a bigger group to play the game that actively wants to help others out.
  • DaxterbeerDaxterbeer
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    edited January 14
    Of course Phantom is a support now, the fact that he can still bishop skills makes him one plus he has his own debuffs.

    Truth of the matter, Phantom needs a full remake and I still suggested to keep all of the core gameplay aspects that he has now. How the skill looks like is one thing, but as long as the player can still have the same gameplay feel or an improved version of the same gameplay, then it does not alienate the player.

    Why don't you take your revamp thoughts here and bring them out to Reddit to see what the majority thinks? If you believe you know where the game is heading or know what players want, you should have no problem gaining upvotes, positive comments and their respect. You can safely assume that me and Fuhreak are just the odd minorities thinking your ideas of buffing supports and reinventing classes you barely touched/understand is bad as well as rejecting the acceptance of welcoming Bpots and scrolling to Reboot with is possible damage deficit when GMS made the bold decision to keep Reboot servers.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited January 14
    Stacona wrote: »
    Fuhreak wrote: »

    Of course Phantom is a support now, the fact that he can still bishop skills makes him one plus he has his own debuffs.

    Truth of the matter, Phantom needs a full remake and I still suggested to keep all of the core gameplay aspects that he has now. How the skill looks like is one thing, but as long as the player can still have the same gameplay feel or an improved version of the same gameplay, then it does not alienate the player.
    By that Logic, Night Lord is a support because he can debuff the boss.
    Phantom is not a support. You're just pretending he is because it supports your narrative about the game.
    I am saying the opposite, not force players to play on the "free" bossing characters and instead allow players to continue playing on the class they like and grant them the option to enjoy that level of "free" bossing if they party with supports being meaningful powerful and impactful to the game.
    They are not forced onto the "free" bossing characters. They have that option if they want an easier time bossing.
    Instead of changing classes so that players who don't even play them will play them, leave them alone and stop trying to force your version of maple.
    The community will adjust and change only when the systems of the game change. If you establish a sweaty, try hard, and solo game only then those are the types of players that will be left in the game because everyone else quit.
    So just screw the current community then? Bossing was designed for a certain type of player.
    The kind of player you are trying to ruin the experience for.
    You have a way that is OPTIONAL to help players out and have an easier time to do boss fights WITHOUT TAKING AWAY from the try-hard sweaty solo players is the best thing for the game.
    You do take away from the "sweaty solo players", you just don't care and won't listen to anyone who says otherwise.
    You would rather rework half the game to fit your vision of the game and damned be anyone who doesn't agree with your version of the game.
    In order for you to have your ideal 50% support classes you will have to rework almost 50% of the classes, they barely changed Shade and that already upset people.
    How do you think people are going to feel when you're changing how half the classes in the game work drastically more different than that?
    ~ You ease players into bossing this way to grow how many players are willing to boss to make it easier to find boss parties with a deeper pool of players.
    There are plenty of players who boss. The pool is deep enough. If anything it's too deep and filled with people who can barely play the game.
    I have to go on the assumption that you do not PUG so you again have no clue what you're talking about.
    Join a random party of people that are at a good starting point for the boss.
    A good chunk of players barely know how to play their class and even people that are extremely over qualified are getting carried on grandis bosses weekly.
    ~ Solo players and try-hards still have their challenging boss fights if they don't want to play with supports. Nothing changes, literally the opposite to forced gameplay.
    Incorrect. The game will now be oversaturated (even more so than it already is) with people who can barely play the game and when you need/want to join a party you have to wade through an endless amount of players who can barely play their class and you're held back by them.
    Nexon then has to dumb down the rest of the game to fit the new community that you've created by handing players everything for free.
    Your version of the game destroys what the game currently is. You just refuse to see or admit it.
    ~ And you finally deliver on the support fantasy with having meaningfully powerful and truly impactful level of support play to help grow the support player base, this includes making the game more appealing to players that only want to play as a support class.
    Players already have this. I already play those classes and play with those players.
    Again, you don't need to change the game to get what you're asking for, you just have to go play the game.
    Stacona wrote: »
    This is having an elitist and gatekeeper mindset. Stop.
    Maple has embraced this style for years on end and it's only growing, the game is doing the opposite of what you're claiming will happen.
    Stop trying to change the game into something it's not, that is how you kill a game.
    You should never care about what someone else is doing.
    As long as your own game experience is not affected, while making the game more enjoyable to way more people, then that is a win for everyone.
    Yes you should, because what other players do actively cultivates the community which affects your ability to play the game in said community.
    You are actively trying to destroy bossing and ruin it for the type of player it is designed for. Bossing is not for you, stop trying to make it into something it is not.
    Let your own personal achievements be your own accomplishments, and stop letting your ego and insecurities prevent players from being able to do more in the game and enjoy the game more because you want to be validated so badly. The main person that should care about your achievements is yourself and not to let anyone else bring your achievements up or down.
    These are personal attacks. This is not an argument.
    Treat people with respect and attack their opinions/arguments, not their character.
    Learn to enjoy and have fun with the game and don't gatekeep others from enjoyment and or experiencing content.
    We're trying to preserve the game, while your suggestions are actively try to change it.
    Because the alternative to keeping supports non-existent is they make the game easier directly, and now you lose out on your harder boss fights all because you did not push operation make supports powerful. While fundamentally still not fixing the week to week issues or promoting a bigger group to play the game that actively wants to help others out.
    Supports already exist and they're already strong enough. I would love to see your bossing because I do my fair share of bossing all the way from the occasional CRA struggle up to CKalos/NKaling.
    Your suggestions in regards to changing bossing, supports and what new players experience seems really out of touch with reality.
    The only way I can rationalize it is that you must be doing something wrong, or you simply don't boss at all.
  • StaconaStacona
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    edited January 14
    Fuhreak wrote: »

    That entire phantom concept was an extremely rough draft and its entire premise was make your own class.

    So you if wanted to be a full on damage dealer, you customize for that, full on support you customize for that, or a hybrid then you customize for that. Literally was set up to play how you want to play.

    And the skill ideas were all keeping in mind with how his skills work now and/or improving the feel of how they work now WITHOUT changing the gameplay feel of the abilities. Everything suggested still offered current gameplay to what Phantom has now, minus the fact that you can literally go and steal explorer skills directly, making things either the same or an improved version of the same skill.

    That was entire purpose of giving the devs more ideas for a phantom remake.


    No, you have never seen a support in this game and what it should be offering. What you call a support now is because you are so used to eating leftover poop that you call poop a 5 star gourmet dinner...

    Lynn would be the closest to where a support should be, but she is still severely underperforming to where supports should be at to properly fulfill their role.


    Yes. Over 50% of players boss in this game. Straight facts and I am wrong about everything.

    You happy now? That is what you wanted to hear. Live in your delusions instead of reality my dude, the game will slowly end up dying with its current direction of only catering and appealing to solo, hardcore sweats.

    The best part, my direction for the game still appeals to the solo, hardcore sweats and keeps them in mind. It just moves the focus into everyone else and fleshing out the game more rather than only have chase as the only appeal, actually have stuff to do in the meantime while still having the chase.


    I like Kirby more than Mario, I play both, but Mario is technical platforming skill while Kirby is a puzzle-platformer so it is more about being methodical and thinking out your platforming rather than showcasing how good you are at controlling your character.

    Nintendo makes single player games so they can make games that character to specific niches and budget accordingly to still make a profit.

    While Nexon makes multiplayer online games so within the game itself got to appeal to different niches in multiple different ways - different class playstyles is one of them, but they got to work better on making the game both enjoyable for those that like technical control over their character and those that like to play methodically and/or are unable to play with technical control.

    Basically, MapleStory needs to support the Mario and Kirby players at the same time. While Nintendo can make Mario for the Mario gamers and Kirby for the Kirby gamers because of how the companies do business differently.


    So i am basically saying allow players to remove the technical skill out of the boss fights without removing the technical out of the boss fights directly. Supports are the best way to do this as the player can simply not play with a support or boss solo.

    The most important thing to do is design the boss fights like supports do not exist then the supports will function properly for their role and ensures boss fights can always be done with a supportless party and/or able to be done as a solo.

    Direct impact, having way more supports give players that want to play as a support options for playstyles. And with more support playstyle means a larger pool of support players which means it would be a lot easier to find a support to party with for those that are looking for one.
  • RedRavenRedRaven
    Reactions: 1,280
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    Member
    edited January 14
    Stacona i played wow for about 5 years(from late Cataclysm to the end of Draenor Expact, returned during Battle For Azeroth and played it near the end of the expansion

    Cataclysm--End of Draenor i left cause i was burnt out...not because i disliked the direction of the game

    but for Battle of Azeroth i left due to bad direction, but nothing to do with bosses fight difficulty
    i left because they made professions unreasonnably too grindy(here spend 200 hours grind to make 1 single item), they also made mounts,toys collecting way too tedious

    how is that fun to camp multi-mount for 10+ hours a day doing nothing while simultaneously fighting other players to get it ?
    toys with 0.3% drop...mount with 0.3% drop rate

    WoW went in a way too grindy direction since the Legion expact, and that certainly didn't help it

    as a completionnist that was too much
    but for most ppl i think they just disliked the crafting professions absurd requirements

    oh and 1 more thing i think Legion/Battle for Azeroth did wrong
    giving mass stuns to dungeons mobs for mass pulling made the dungeons so much more tedious
    pugs group on WoW are fill of stupids that dont know how to do kiting when mass pulling(which was a must do
    to mass pull for those 2 expansion)....basicly they killed the fun of viable mass pulling with dummies and
    that made the dungeons take so much longer

    like if i wanna pull 3-4 packs at once on WoW now i can't because groups aren't big brained enough to handle it
    that feel very boring when i tank because my skills have been leash back to match bad players or get punish

    dummy: what is that skill that make enemies move slow that your talking about ? , just let us dps normally without thinking,
    i dont wanna put effort in thinking

    thats pretty much the gist of the mentality that plague WoW dungeons
    in other words it created a gap between good players and dummies for the easier content
    then the recent pay to win(buy luxury mounts for perks is 1 way to piss ppl off)
    or like that mount in Battle for Azeroth that required players to pay up an absurd amount of gold to get
    that brontosaur for 5 million gold, i played for 75% of the expansion and i only made 2.5 million gold, how was that
    reasonnable ?.....that was with very actively playing optimmaly too.....like they made it for shady players(aka cheaters)

    WoW didn't died out because of raids difficulty, it died out because they made the easy content as TEDIOUS as possible
    and if not mistaken some ppl were upset with some of the new ui systems they came out with(poor designs)


    if you ask me, Cataclysm was the most well designed expact they had(a little too much work for profession craft, but not extremely tedious either)
    Draenor was Alts friendly for gearing(main char getting to keep alts well geared)
    Pandaria, was too easy but fun, professions mades very friendly(too friendly for once)

    points are
    dont make a game too easy, but not too obnoxious either
    dont make it tedious
    dont give fun items to players to then take it away from them
    example 1: (blarring horn(aggro all enemy nearby)...Pandaria item
    example 1 after nerf: only does a screen animation, no longer aggro mobs around

    example 2: (Avianna feather), send you 2000 miles in the air and let you travel the world at high speed
    example 2 after nerf: you now fly 20-30 time slower and can no longer travel the world

    so, have it well balance so that everyone can enjoy it..... WoW is dying cause of many factors but not raid difficulty
  • FuhreakFuhreak
    Reactions: 7,730
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    Member, Private Tester
    edited January 14
    Stacona wrote: »
    No, you have never seen a support in this game and what it should be offering. What you call a support now is because you are so used to eating leftover poop that you call poop a 5 star gourmet dinner...

    Lynn would be the closest to where a support should be, but she is still severely underperforming to where supports should be at to properly fulfill their role.
    Yes I have. I play with players who cannot clear bosses without a support.
    To have a character support another player so strong that the player literally cannot clear without your help, that is not underperforming.
    It is not a carry either, the support player can be weaker than the player they are helping and it still opens up the possibility for a clear because the support is just that strong.
    Again, it seems to me that you have zero clue what you are talking about, as I have never felt like supports are too weak nor have I seen anyone complain about these issues.

    Yes. Over 50% of players boss in this game. Straight facts and I am wrong about everything.

    You happy now? That is what you wanted to hear. Live in your delusions instead of reality my dude, the game will slowly end up dying with its current direction of only catering and appealing to solo, hardcore sweats.
    The game has been going in this direction for years and is only growing.
    I like Kirby more than Mario, I play both, but Mario is technical platforming skill while Kirby is a puzzle-platformer so it is more about being methodical and thinking out your platforming rather than showcasing how good you are at controlling your character.

    Nintendo makes single player games so they can make games that character to specific niches and budget accordingly to still make a profit.

    While Nexon makes multiplayer online games so within the game itself got to appeal to different niches in multiple different ways - different class playstyles is one of them, but they got to work better on making the game both enjoyable for those that like technical control over their character and those that like to play methodically and/or are unable to play with technical control.

    Basically, MapleStory needs to support the Mario and Kirby players at the same time. While Nintendo can make Mario for the Mario gamers and Kirby for the Kirby gamers because of how the companies do business differently.

    Here is Kirby being played at an extremely technical level.

    Here are puzzle elements within Mario.
    This is completely irrelevant but both of those games can be played with both of those playstyles you mentioned.
    Both Kirby and Mario have technical skill and puzzle solving skill. I don't really know what your point was.
    So i am basically saying allow players to remove the technical skill out of the boss fights without removing the technical out of the boss fights directly. Supports are the best way to do this as the player can simply not play with a support or boss solo.
    You can remove technical skill currently by playing an easier class, playing with one of the supports, or over gearing for the boss.
    This option already exists, you just want to change the game to support your play style which is changing the direction of the game.
    As this conversation appears to be going nowhere and you appear to be getting more upset with each post I will dip out of the thread as of this post.
    I suggest you do the same and cool down before moving onto the next thread.
  • StaconaStacona
    Reactions: 2,045
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    Member
    edited January 14
    Fuhreak wrote: »

    Stop copying and pasting useless stuff.

    THINK FOR YOURSELF!! Give your own opinions and not the opinions of others. You are a human and not a robot, so stop acting like a robot.

    Think about how Mario moves around and how the levels are designed.
    Think about how Kirby moves around and how the levels are designed.

    This is not a speedrunner niche thing, this is how the overall game is designed.

    Kirby is a lot slower and does not involve precise jumps so you explore more and really need to go out of your way to find the secrets, secret areas, and overcome the insane difficulty challenge among those secret areas. The purpose of the Kirby float is to help the player land on the platforms, Infinity Nikki properly learned from this and implemented into the platforming.
    > Speedrunners are going to memorize what ability moves the fastest for every level, and what does the most damage for every boss.

    Mario is about making those precise jumps and landing on smaller platforms, and depending on the game, having various other moves to get around like long jump, wall jump, spin jump, etc.
    > Speedrunners are going to learn to master everything Mario has to offer and memorize the shortcut locations.

    Sonic is about going fast and memorizing where everything is, this is really designed for the speedrunner to run the same course on repeat and really master each level.
    (I only like 3D Sonic since most of them still have speed, but there is more exploration involved, the level design actually makes sense since it is a 3D space, and is slowed down compared to 2D Sonic. I hate 2D Sonic.)


    People like playing a certain class, they don't want to play an easier class because that class does not have a playstyle they enjoy. All of the classes in MapleStory play way differently to each other.

    This is why supports need to be refocused and moved into a direction that allows for that easier bossing experience without needing to change classes for that.

    It was a mistake to categorize supports as "how strong are the party buffs it gives" and should have always been about their defensive, healing, and/or utility skills and to move the support direction to fit this aspect for the FIRST TIME EVER! And to give support players real choice in who they want to play as with a lot more support classes. Doing all of this without worry of "what if 6 supports come together and this extreme outcome happens" they should never think that way and make it where only 1 support is able to properly do their job as a support, and offer a completely different way for someone to play this game.


    Changes that may or may not to be needed to each individual class directly is completely separate.


    You need to really understand differing playstyles and audience appeals, knowing and most importantly properly understanding what people like and dislike, and why is that, and why players perform in such a way and do what they do.

    Then embrace the differences and come up with solutions that everyone can co-existent without friction.

    Powerful supports is something they need to do for you to really see what I am talking about, and was the basis is established will take about 2 years from that point to really see the fruits and the vision come to be.

    And with the project not disrupting the current bossing experience for those that enjoy it and improve on the experience for those that do not like the current bossing experience. And for those that like it early on, but not for the week-to-week, can have an option to have an easier time if they find a support player.
  • RedRavenRedRaven
    Reactions: 1,280
    Posts: 287
    Member
    edited January 14
    support abuse is not a good way to go

    maybe use the system WoW use to help baddies....."give you a 5% total dmg buff everytime you fail to kill a boss(max stack of 4(20% total dmg)), players only gets the buff after failling an attempt that lasted at least 8 minutes and that the boss took at least 30% dmg to their health".......give you a bit of an encouragement if you at least have some determination....."play Megalovania from Undertale"

    however that buff should not be given to newer bosses(to keep their challenge the real deal while still fresh)
    so EXCLUDING the following
    Seren
    Kalos
    Kaling
    Xtreme Lotus
    Limbo
    and potentially the Black Mage excluded as well

    i can't agree that bosses should be terminated in less than 5 minutes ...but for outdated bosses a little buff to help sure

    oh and i forgot earlier...since your familiar to WoW...watch these youtubers--->Rextroy & Raegwyn
    both of them performing quite some impressive feats
    FuhreakDaxterbeer
  • DaxterbeerDaxterbeer
    Reactions: 7,580
    Posts: 1,088
    Member
    edited January 14
    Basically, MapleStory needs to support the Mario and Kirby players at the same time. While Nintendo can make Mario for the Mario gamers and Kirby for the Kirby gamers because of how the companies do business differently.[/b]

    Maplestory is already built like a Nintendo/HAL game.

    Nintendo/HAL has no problem holding your hand through some content that is deemed hard for younger players. Stuff such as the L block that turns you into Luigi so he can clear the level for you exists. Most of the time, anything he collects like Star Coins isn't added to your score as he exists mainly to progress the story for you. The same can apply to even mature AAA titles like GTA V where you can certain segments such as moving you past a flight minigame if you keep failing it just so you can progress. These games are kind as they help the player complete a mission so they can go on with the story, but they also have challenge menus and achievements for the hardcore fans. These extras are hard and are optional to the game and are designed to challenging and be tackled by experts and not everyone.

    Maplestory is like that already. You are already progressing through the story. If you are in Arteria, you already killed Black Mage, Kalos, Seren, Kaling, Gloom, Vhilla, Darknell etc. The bosses everyone is clearing? Think of those as rematches for those bosses via game's extra challenge menu which wasn't designed for the players who don't grow and learn with their class. Nexon already has a easy boss mode called "Story Mode" similar to how Nintendo made their games beginner friendly while offering a challenge for more competitive players in the form of extras. If you want to relive a boss fight that be played by anyone, have story bosses be replayable and offer no rewards for completion. Nexon is not rewarding players who don't put in the time and effort to build their characters and study the boss.





    Fuhreak