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Check out the v.254 - Midnight Carnival - Ludibrium Patch Notes
here!
Remove the "gender" attribute from the game
Comments
What did I say that you were quoting there? I'm not sure what you're referring to.
I did not say that they should not make any more gender locked items, I said they should make less. You seem to be in the habit of misrepresenting me and my opinion. I also have not suggested Nexon say anything, just start releasing clothes as gender neutral where it makes sense to do so. Once again you're constructing a strawman to attempt to argue with, which is starting to seem dishonest.
It doesn't make a difference if it's a statement on behalf of Nexon or a personal statement from them. I did not say that Nexon saw it as a political statement, I said a Nexon representative saw it as a potential political statement. Please note, Nexon representative =/= Nexon.
I am against all political statements from Nexon, yes.
All you're doing here is reaffirming your opinion, I have no doubt that it is your opinion, but you've got given any reason for your proposed change. I have no doubt that is is your opinion, which I have already disagreed with.
You have no data to support that claim, it could just as feasibly lower sales, because people would have to roll less to get something they might be happy with.
To be clear, I'm not actually forwarding that as a position, since neither of us have any data to support the claim that it would increase/decrease sales.
Covered here:
My primary contention would be that it would be seen as a political statement, which I am against Nexon making. Considering multiple people on this thread alone already view the concept as a political statement you can't forward the idea that it would not be seen as a political statement, because it already has been.
They made the "political statement" when they released the White Swan and Black Swan ballerina sets, with no gender restriction, after those sets had already been available in female-only versions.
Basically, they already said they are fine with people cross-dressing their characters, and will gladly make money by catering to them.
So, that ship has sailed.
What I am asking is not related to politics or cross-dressing at all. It's just a little bit more like the real world has been for many years, since long before the current liberals. In the real world you can walk into any clothing store and buy whatever you have the means to pay for. And as long as the item is not too small for you to fit into, and covers your private parts, you can wear it out in public, too. People might give you strange or disapproving looks for some of your choices, but the police isn't going to arrest you.
For Maple to be the same way is not "political".
It just solves the problem of items having unnecessary gender restrictions (like the freckles, or the ghost uniform), and issues like the fact that you can't anvil the androgynous CRA top and bottom to look more heteronormative.
I don't believe any of your examples make political statements, if you're against all of them for that reason then I question your support for this threads suggestion. Regardless, I am against Nexon making political statements, I am not saying Nexon has never made a political statement before, nor that I support every political statement Nexon has ever potentially made, so your point is moot.
You seem to be suggesting I have an issue with cross-dressing, I don't and have not suggested that I do.
I have also repeatedly started that I have no problem with future items being more gender neutral, like Arwoo suggested.
Obviously we disagree that it would/would not be seen as political. You can't make blanket statements about how people would interpret the potential update. It's quite possible that you mean nothing political by your championing of the idea, but that's quite frankly irrelevant.
Example:
Person 1: "Vote for x!"
Person 2: "Please don't bring politics here"
Person 1: "It's not political, I meant nothing political by it"
Person 2: "Your intention is irrelevant, people see it as a political statement so it is a political statement"
I have no doubt that some people would not see it as political, I also have no doubt that some people (myself included) would see it as a political statement, which is reason enough for me to think it should be avoided.
I answered that already:
Then I don't understand what you see as political.
If not the endorsement of cross-dressing, then what?
"Vote for x!" is political by definition, since voting is politics.
Fashion is not politics. "Let me wear whatever I want, just like in the real world" is not politics, because it is not a political issue in the real world. Except maybe in Saudi Arabia.
Why are there only "specific examples we could agree on", if you just said you had no issue with cross-dressing, and you also said Nexon's allowing cross-dressing is not political? Why not all items, then?
How about this compromise:
Characters will still have gender, but the check on whether the character is the right gender to wear certain equipment, hairstyle, or face, will be removed.
I said that I have no problem with cross-dressing, I have an issue with Nexon making a political statement. My personal opinion of cross dressing has nothing to do with my opinion that Nexon should avoid making political statements.
Fashion can absolutely be political. The idea that Gender is a social construct, Gender norms need to challenged etc, which an update like this would be seen to be supporting , would absolutely be seen as a political statement.
If you don't think that Gender identity and the like are not political issues then you've not been paying attention to the News. :P
I said I view Nexon's current practice on cross-dressing as non-political, I also said that them changing that (with the potential update) would be seen as political, which is what I'm against. As I've already said, my personal beliefs are irrelevant.
Because some specific examples don't really concern Gender at all, like freckles.
To be clear, we don't agree on freckles. You think they're important and I don't care enough to object, there's a difference. :P
Also specific examples are on a small enough scale that I don't think it makes a statement by itself. I see a difference between:
"Freckles face changed to be unisex"
and
"We have removed Gender completely, everyone can wear everything"
Would make too much of a statement for me to support, for the reasons I've already given.
"Males can wear this tutu and tiara set" is non political, but "males can wear whatever they want" is political?
My issue is not with what people choose to wear, which to be clear can absolutely be political, but doesn't have to be, obviously. Even when a person makes the most overt political statement, I am more then happy for them to have their political beliefs and express them however they want.
With that said, there is a difference between a company and a person. I do not want Nexon to make content and updates which will be seen as supporting (or not supporting) specific hot-topic political issues.
I have only stated that I have no issue with cross dressing because it seems to have been implied that I had some issue with cross dressing and I want to correct the record, so to speak. However, my personal beliefs are irrelevant to my reasons for not wanting Gender to be removed from Maplestory.
Obviously everything can be interpreted as a political statement to varying degrees. Which is why I have less of an issue with less overt changes, such as future Gender restriction consideration (where reasonable) or a limited pool of specific changes to existing content.
Person 1: We should bulldoze the town!
Person 2: I don't think that's a good idea
Person 1: But that house is decrepit and is a health risk, it needs to go!
Person 2: That's not a reason to bulldoze a town, I'm sure we could agree on specific houses to bulldozer instead
Person 1: But you agree that the house needs to be bulldozed, so why don't you agree that the town needs to go???
You are evading the question.
I'm not asking about your personal opinion on cross-dressing.
You said you object to Nexon making political statements.
I said Nexon has already made such statements by releasing such items as beards and wedding dresses as gender-neutral.
You claimed that was not a political statement.
I said, well then, they can make all cosmetic items gender-neutral.
You said that would be a political statement.
So I am trying to understand where you, personally, draw the line between a political statement (that a company should avoid) and non-political actions.
Hard to 'evade' a question they I've already answered.
So you're taking the bolded (by me) part back?
If they have made a political statement on this topic in the past, then unless you want them to withdraw those statements (by way of removing the "cross dressing" items from the game or assigning them to their heteronormative gender), those statements continue to stand. And be made anew every time one of those items is re-released (including every April 1st).
So it makes no sense to tell them, "Don't make any more statements that reaffirm the ones you already made and continue to make."
This is what I meant by "That ship has sailed."
Also, one might argue that by creating a game in which gender has no effect on stats or skills, they made an even stronger political statement. Should that be withdrawn as well?
No, but I'll add in the word "significant" if you really want. I would have thought it to be self evident that I was referring to significant political statements, since everything can be seen as a political statement.
Fixed it for you. Arguing minutia doesn't progress the conversation since it doesn't counter my points nor progress any of your own.
Person 1: I don't like Mondays
Person 2: But you got married on a Monday! Plus you said you enjoyed all of your time in France, you were there for 3 Mondays! Are you going to take back that you don't like Mondays???
Person 1: You're kidding right?
Worth pointing out that I disagree with your conclusion.
But I didn't.. lol. Constructing a position I never forwarded to try and argue with it is a strawman fallacy.
I draw the line at content that even when suggested causes 6+ pages of kerfuffles, anything between 1-3 would be acceptable!
That's obviously a flippant answer, but highlights that even the suggestion has caused (albeit well meaning, at least from me) drama. Which is exactly what I want to avoid.
Novelty hairs on April 1st and the like do not have the same impact as eliminating Gender and do not say the same political statement.
I have said multiple times that I do not want Nexon to make any political statements about hot-topic issues. I'm not sure how many times you want me to give you the exact same answer.
Welcome back, still waiting for your clarification here from before. I will address your most recent reply too though:
Sure, someone could argue those points, but I have not argued those points. You sure are a fan of strawman fallacies. :P
Certainly:
I tried to figure out what the statement is, but I can't read your mind, and you refuse to clarify.
Is the statement, that you object to Nexon making, "People can wear whatever they like, regardless of gender"?
If not, what is?
I said directly after I said it that it was a flippant answer, you're arguing what I said in the very post it was made was a joke, lol.
I believe I have explained in detail what I mean when I say that I don't want Nexon to be making political statements.
Clarification again:
For clarification about the above, I'm obviously meaning significant statements.
I believe dismantling the idea of Gender in Maplestory makes a significant political statement, which I believe should be avoided. Maybe in a few years it will be less potentially controversial, we can hope anyway.
Significant - adjective - Important; of consequence.
It seems unlikely that no one understands me, especially considering support has been posted for my original post.
Companies can absolutely make political statements with content they add to their game. Nexon acknowledges this with the patch notes for the removal of the Donald Trump npc.
I have made no comment about same sex marriage at all and as a member of the LGBTQA+ community I resent the implication. Please stop building strawmen to try and argue with, it's starting to seem like you're intentionally doing it now.
As I've stated many times, I have no personal issue whatsoever with cross-dressing. I simply do not believe Nexon should be making unnecessarily large, potentially divisive, significant political statements. If people want to cross dress with whatever is already available and Nexon is willing to be more considerate with future updates then great, I'm happy with both.
You've also repeatedly said that people are "building strawmen" the only reason why it feels like that in the first place is because no one understands what your point is!
Also: Why the heck do you care what "political statements" Nexon makes? It's their business, their prerogative. That seems to be what started this whole thing anyways. You've said it before, you may not agree with Nexon's previous statements, but they're free to make them.
I get that you disagree with the suggestion, but you need to stop saying, "I don't think nexon should make x political statement" and replace it with "I don't agree with x political statement". What you think Nexon should, and shouldn't do, has no merit on this discussion.
All 2 of them? 3 with you. :P
I am against the suggestion because I believe it would make a political statement that I don't think Nexon should make, while personally I have no issue with people cross dressing. I am against it for the same reason I was in support of Donald Trump being removed. I do not know how I can make that any clearer for people.
It was most recently implied that I had an issue with same sex marriage and that my thinking about same sex marriage was something the person would have expected from over a decade ago. I not once mentioned same sex marriage. It was a strawman fallacy by definition.
We're literally on the suggestions and feedback section of the forums, literally implemented for the playerbase to tell Nexon how they believe they should spend their time. Nexon is of course free to make potentially divisive political statements if they want, I just don't believe they should.
"Nexon can do what they want" is an accurate statement, but not helpful to this conversation and invalidates this entire forum section, lol. :P
I have never once claimed that Nexon is not allowed to make whatever political statements they want, please don't misrepresent me.
I have stated multiple times that I personally have no problem with cross dressing. My disagreement of the suggestion is due to my belief that companies should avoid potentially divisive political statements.
To say "I don't agree with x political statement" would be a lie, where x equals the political statements discussed in this thread.
I still wish I knew what "x" is.
I feel like I'm in that ancient skit, "Who's on First".
"I'm against Nexon making significant political statements."
"What statement do you think they'd be making by doing this?"
"A significant one."
"No, I meant, what is the statement that would be implied by allowing characters to wear what they want?"
"A significant and potentially divisive one, which I agree with but don't think Nexon should make."
"Can you rephrase the statement?"
"I already did, multiple times."
I give up.