Flames are overrated. Can we revamp the neb system instead?
Flames are surely not overrated at all.
While I'm not against a neb revamp!
Flames are way better than nebs could ever be, as the system up to the point of KMS's today's flame system is epic.
We had flames in Europe for quite a while and it was amazing, every chaos root abyss run was a RNG run.
You'd see a fafnir drop and hope for good flame on it. It made every run a nice run, every boss run becomes more fun when you always have a tiny chance that you actually get some treasure.
Nowadays it's just clean this clean everything, it looks dissapointing in my eyes, but I don't have the mesos to afford old flamed, so my new gear is pretty much always a dissapointment.
Flames can give up to 110+? stat and add around +42% of it's clean attack on weapons.
Not even talking about the boss dmg and the all stats % it can give, this alone defeats nebulites already.
Nebulites need a real hard work on to be that much revamped that it would help us that much.
so.. why revamp an ancient system while you can copy a new one?
The problem with flames is that the bosses are too strong for GMS players to handle, especially hard Lucid. The main reason KMS was able to beat her is BECAUSE of flames. And Nebulites don't even come close to being able to reach flames due to the limited supply, the high prices, and the lack of decent boosts in comparison to flames.
You're not getting what I'm saying. Instead of adding flames, why not nerf the boss' health?
Also is there anything substantial locked behind hard lucid? Do GMS players actually have a reason to fight her over normal mode other than as a test of strength?
You're not getting what I'm saying. Instead of adding flames, why not nerf the boss' health?
Because that would never happen in GMS. Nexon makes too much money off players spending money for damage. Plus, there are other uses for having high damage besides bosses, such as Dream Defender.
Also is there anything substantial locked behind hard lucid? Do GMS players actually have a reason to fight her over normal mode other than as a test of strength?
If we had 25 stars and flames, then maybe there would be, due to 200+ items getting much better stats (specifically the belt and the AU set). Flames also would make the Absolab and Arcane Umbra sets worthwhile due to the greater benefits of using flames/starforce on these items.
Hang on wind it back there. You're telling me Nexon will never lower any boss' health because they want that dosh, and instead it's more likely for them to add a completely f2p system for getting stronger that would apply across the whole game? I find that hard to believe.
I've still yet to receive an answer on why hard lucid is worth killing in the first place. Arcane coin thingies can be gathered from regular lucid in the same amounts.
Hang on wind it back there. You're telling me Nexon will never lower any boss' health because they want that dosh, and instead it's more likely for them to add a completely f2p system for getting stronger that would apply across the whole game? I find that hard to believe.
I've still yet to receive an answer on why hard lucid is worth killing in the first place. Arcane coin thingies can be gathered from regular lucid in the same amounts.
You're missing the point. We know it's unlikely for them to lower boss health, but that's why we've been asking for Additional Options; so that some of us have a chance against the harder bosses. I never said it was more likely, and that's the problem; we've been asking for AO for years now to no avail. Plus, Nebulites are completely inferior to AO.
And I DID answer your question above, which you conveniently ignored; the Hard Lucid belt MIGHT be worthwhile if we had AO and 25 stars. Hard Lucid also drops more stones, making it faster to get weapons, which would, again, be worth using if Nexon gave us AO and 25 stars. I say this because level 160+ gear gets additional stats from starforce and AO, and 200+ gets even more than 160+.
You missed my point. Following the train of thought that you put forward that Nexon has money as its first priority, why would they choose to add ao which currently has no renewable monetisation over nerfing Hlucid's health. Ao makes players stronger across the board, meaning they would be able to kill every other boss even faster, including normal lucid which means fewer resources (e.g. cubes) spent and lost on fafnir gear as players upgrade to arcane. They are much more likely to take the path of nerfing her hard mode health so that it is only barely doable with the best possible arcane gear. The idea is you farm arcane gear from normal and then move onto hard to farm arcane gear faster once you've got your own set decked out.
I ignored your reason for needing to kill hard mode because I had hoped you would realise the paradox for yourself if given a day to think on it. You're saying we need to add ao so that we can kill a boss that gives a belt which compared to gollux only begins to be relevant due to the addition of ao. Without ao we can't kill the boss but their gear sucks so it doesn't matter. With ao we can kill the boss and their gear is worthwhile. Both cases are self completing, personally I'd opt for the case without the power creep.
Besides, given a year or two we'll have probably power creeped enough to kill her through new arcane symbols for new areas.
You missed my point. Following the train of thought that you put forward that Nexon has money as its first priority, why would they choose to add ao which currently has no renewable monetisation over nerfing Hlucid's health. Ao makes players stronger across the board, meaning they would be able to kill every other boss even faster, including normal lucid which means fewer resources (e.g. cubes) spent and lost on fafnir gear as players upgrade to arcane. They are much more likely to take the path of nerfing her hard mode health so that it is only barely doable with the best possible arcane gear. The idea is you farm arcane gear from normal and then move onto hard to farm arcane gear faster once you've got your own set decked out.
I ignored your reason for needing to kill hard mode because I had hoped you would realise the paradox for yourself if given a day to think on it. You're saying we need to add ao so that we can kill a boss that gives a belt which compared to gollux only begins to be relevant due to the addition of ao. Without ao we can't kill the boss but their gear sucks so it doesn't matter. With ao we can kill the boss and their gear is worthwhile. Both cases are self completing, personally I'd opt for the case without the power creep.
Besides, given a year or two we'll have probably power creeped enough to kill her through new arcane symbols for new areas.
Like I also said, there are other reasons for hard mode besides the belt, such as being able to obtain more Arcane Umbra gear (thus allowing for more to circulate throughout the game, and allowing for people to complete sets easier), and possibly the Lucid-roid. I agree that the belt isn't that great without AO, but that's KMS's burden, since they don't even have Gollux. The main reason very few people use the full set of Absolab and Arcane Umbra (ignoring the price of AU for a moment) is because Tyrant + CRA is just that much better, due to the lack of AO (and Nebulites + 4th tier potential aren't enough to counter the loss). And obviously nobody in KMS complains about it being too OP, even EMS players wish they still had AO (ask any EMS player who uses this forum, for example) since they had it removed when the merge took place.
If it were in Nexon's interests to lower boss HP to counteract the lack of AO, they would have done so years ago (keep in mind that CRA used to be end-game, and Nexon never even considered nerfing CRA). Problem is that they clearly don't have any interest in either releasing AO or lowering boss HP, and like I said, extra damage from AO is good for more than just Hard Lucid (take a look at how much damage is needed for Dream Defender, for example). Also, keep in mind that getting the best AO takes RNG (just like everything else in this game), but is less costly when compared to cubes.
The problem is not just Nexon, but also reactionaries that are convinced AO would break the game, despite it helping everyone, as you stated. At this point, it's clear that Nexon doesn't mind implementing even more power creep besides AO (such as Arcane Symbols and 5th job), so AO is just another stepping stone at this point. Plus, I can guarantee that in the future, hard Lucid won't be the final end-game boss to deal with, especially with Arcane River being expanded.
And if Nexon isn't going to ever give us AO, the least they can do is make Nebulites more worthwhile, since we already have them.
The problem with flames is that the bosses are too strong for GMS players to handle, especially hard Lucid. The main reason KMS was able to beat her is BECAUSE of flames. And Nebulites don't even come close to being able to reach flames due to the limited supply, the high prices, and the lack of decent boosts in comparison to flames.
You're not getting what I'm saying. Instead of adding flames, why not nerf the boss' health?
Also is there anything substantial locked behind hard lucid? Do GMS players actually have a reason to fight her over normal mode other than as a test of strength?
Nerfing the boss is a lazy way of making a boss doable.
The RED update was suppose to be a package that would revolutionize the crafting system allowing players to enhance their gear better than what was already available in KMS (Occult Cubes could tier down and were limited to Epic tier and Additional Options from the Unlimited Patched were fixed and couldn't be re-roll.) Having an update that allows players to make cubes that were able to affect items Unique and above (Craftsmen and Meister) and being able to change additional options was made possible by crafting flames was made possible by the RED Update. Along with the update came the materials needed to craft cubes and flames (spell essence, mana crystals etc.) Flames were suppose to made with these materials but the items seem to serve no purpose at all in GMS due to the absence of flames.
Content in KMS following RED had flames implemented such as their Reboot Shop, Legion Shop and Mu Lung Dojo (even Kritias sells items to make flames and cubes for Kritias coins while GMS only has the cube materials.) Aside from making players stronger, content that have been overhauled in KMS and brought here will come in more complete (such as crafting as stated above.) Not to forgot about Reboot, players in Reboot would have access to Powerful Rebirth Flames in the Reboot shop for 9.5 million mesos.
Its too dangerous for me to talk about this in Reddit because i will get killed
About flames, you're looking at it the wrong way. The newer bosses are super strong because of power creep. Adding more power creep to kill them will not solve the problem. Somewhere along the line they'll release a new boss that pushes the power creep to its absolute limit, and then players will ask for a new way to get stronger so that they don't have to fully max out the current systems.
Also the drop rate changes are fine. %drop gear only hurts the game in every single game I have ever seen it in. The less impactful it is the better.
All this "power creep" this, "power creep" that, but really, would you rather progression stay the same and there never be a new way to get stronger? And in the case of flames, this "power creep" isn't just something only stronger people have access to. Everyone can easily enough get them, unlike Nebulites, which barring some miraculous RNG are ridiculous to get something relatively good with. That and there's the paywall of premium fusion tickets. And even then, the strongest Nebulites are still hugely inferior to flames.
As for drop rate, the nerf's only going to drive up prices of nodestones and make untradable things like symbols far harder to get. The only people that could possibly benefit from that are hackers and botters that have no reason to care how hard they are to get, since they'll come out with hundreds or thousands at a time anyway. And they're already hard to get as it is. What's more is individual nodes aren't supposed to be this super rare and infinitely valuable and powerful thing. You need thousands of them to get completely setup. The way this game is going with how much it thinks an individual node is worth is a great way to make it unnecessarily hard to utilize them.
This results in weaker players getting a tiny tiny bit stronger and stronger funded players getting A LOT stronger, creating a larger gap between the weak and strong..
For whatever reason, people seem to have this twisted idea that making already strong people stronger is inherently a bad thing. Unless it's at weaker people's expense, I don't see anything wrong with that. More power to them if it doesn't make it harder for anyone else. And of course people already funded are going to get stronger from new additions to the game than people less setup. That's just how this game works. It only makes sense that someone with 10k flat stat is going to gain more from some easily obtained %stat than someone with 1k. There's not going to be any items that just give a fixed amount of damage for everyone.
Comments
Flames are surely not overrated at all.
While I'm not against a neb revamp!
Flames are way better than nebs could ever be, as the system up to the point of KMS's today's flame system is epic.
We had flames in Europe for quite a while and it was amazing, every chaos root abyss run was a RNG run.
You'd see a fafnir drop and hope for good flame on it. It made every run a nice run, every boss run becomes more fun when you always have a tiny chance that you actually get some treasure.
Nowadays it's just clean this clean everything, it looks dissapointing in my eyes, but I don't have the mesos to afford old flamed, so my new gear is pretty much always a dissapointment.
Flames can give up to 110+? stat and add around +42% of it's clean attack on weapons.
Not even talking about the boss dmg and the all stats % it can give, this alone defeats nebulites already.
Nebulites need a real hard work on to be that much revamped that it would help us that much.
so.. why revamp an ancient system while you can copy a new one?
You're not getting what I'm saying. Instead of adding flames, why not nerf the boss' health?
Also is there anything substantial locked behind hard lucid? Do GMS players actually have a reason to fight her over normal mode other than as a test of strength?
Allow us to remove notifications, we see the notification for people logging in on the Alliance / Guild / Friends every single time.
Because that would never happen in GMS. Nexon makes too much money off players spending money for damage. Plus, there are other uses for having high damage besides bosses, such as Dream Defender.
If we had 25 stars and flames, then maybe there would be, due to 200+ items getting much better stats (specifically the belt and the AU set). Flames also would make the Absolab and Arcane Umbra sets worthwhile due to the greater benefits of using flames/starforce on these items.
I've still yet to receive an answer on why hard lucid is worth killing in the first place. Arcane coin thingies can be gathered from regular lucid in the same amounts.
You're missing the point. We know it's unlikely for them to lower boss health, but that's why we've been asking for Additional Options; so that some of us have a chance against the harder bosses. I never said it was more likely, and that's the problem; we've been asking for AO for years now to no avail. Plus, Nebulites are completely inferior to AO.
And I DID answer your question above, which you conveniently ignored; the Hard Lucid belt MIGHT be worthwhile if we had AO and 25 stars. Hard Lucid also drops more stones, making it faster to get weapons, which would, again, be worth using if Nexon gave us AO and 25 stars. I say this because level 160+ gear gets additional stats from starforce and AO, and 200+ gets even more than 160+.
I ignored your reason for needing to kill hard mode because I had hoped you would realise the paradox for yourself if given a day to think on it. You're saying we need to add ao so that we can kill a boss that gives a belt which compared to gollux only begins to be relevant due to the addition of ao. Without ao we can't kill the boss but their gear sucks so it doesn't matter. With ao we can kill the boss and their gear is worthwhile. Both cases are self completing, personally I'd opt for the case without the power creep.
Besides, given a year or two we'll have probably power creeped enough to kill her through new arcane symbols for new areas.
Like I also said, there are other reasons for hard mode besides the belt, such as being able to obtain more Arcane Umbra gear (thus allowing for more to circulate throughout the game, and allowing for people to complete sets easier), and possibly the Lucid-roid. I agree that the belt isn't that great without AO, but that's KMS's burden, since they don't even have Gollux. The main reason very few people use the full set of Absolab and Arcane Umbra (ignoring the price of AU for a moment) is because Tyrant + CRA is just that much better, due to the lack of AO (and Nebulites + 4th tier potential aren't enough to counter the loss). And obviously nobody in KMS complains about it being too OP, even EMS players wish they still had AO (ask any EMS player who uses this forum, for example) since they had it removed when the merge took place.
If it were in Nexon's interests to lower boss HP to counteract the lack of AO, they would have done so years ago (keep in mind that CRA used to be end-game, and Nexon never even considered nerfing CRA). Problem is that they clearly don't have any interest in either releasing AO or lowering boss HP, and like I said, extra damage from AO is good for more than just Hard Lucid (take a look at how much damage is needed for Dream Defender, for example). Also, keep in mind that getting the best AO takes RNG (just like everything else in this game), but is less costly when compared to cubes.
The problem is not just Nexon, but also reactionaries that are convinced AO would break the game, despite it helping everyone, as you stated. At this point, it's clear that Nexon doesn't mind implementing even more power creep besides AO (such as Arcane Symbols and 5th job), so AO is just another stepping stone at this point. Plus, I can guarantee that in the future, hard Lucid won't be the final end-game boss to deal with, especially with Arcane River being expanded.
And if Nexon isn't going to ever give us AO, the least they can do is make Nebulites more worthwhile, since we already have them.
Nerfing the boss is a lazy way of making a boss doable.
The RED update was suppose to be a package that would revolutionize the crafting system allowing players to enhance their gear better than what was already available in KMS (Occult Cubes could tier down and were limited to Epic tier and Additional Options from the Unlimited Patched were fixed and couldn't be re-roll.) Having an update that allows players to make cubes that were able to affect items Unique and above (Craftsmen and Meister) and being able to change additional options was made possible by crafting flames was made possible by the RED Update. Along with the update came the materials needed to craft cubes and flames (spell essence, mana crystals etc.) Flames were suppose to made with these materials but the items seem to serve no purpose at all in GMS due to the absence of flames.
Content in KMS following RED had flames implemented such as their Reboot Shop, Legion Shop and Mu Lung Dojo (even Kritias sells items to make flames and cubes for Kritias coins while GMS only has the cube materials.) Aside from making players stronger, content that have been overhauled in KMS and brought here will come in more complete (such as crafting as stated above.) Not to forgot about Reboot, players in Reboot would have access to Powerful Rebirth Flames in the Reboot shop for 9.5 million mesos.
Its too dangerous for me to talk about this in Reddit because i will get killed
All this "power creep" this, "power creep" that, but really, would you rather progression stay the same and there never be a new way to get stronger? And in the case of flames, this "power creep" isn't just something only stronger people have access to. Everyone can easily enough get them, unlike Nebulites, which barring some miraculous RNG are ridiculous to get something relatively good with. That and there's the paywall of premium fusion tickets. And even then, the strongest Nebulites are still hugely inferior to flames.
As for drop rate, the nerf's only going to drive up prices of nodestones and make untradable things like symbols far harder to get. The only people that could possibly benefit from that are hackers and botters that have no reason to care how hard they are to get, since they'll come out with hundreds or thousands at a time anyway. And they're already hard to get as it is. What's more is individual nodes aren't supposed to be this super rare and infinitely valuable and powerful thing. You need thousands of them to get completely setup. The way this game is going with how much it thinks an individual node is worth is a great way to make it unnecessarily hard to utilize them.
For whatever reason, people seem to have this twisted idea that making already strong people stronger is inherently a bad thing. Unless it's at weaker people's expense, I don't see anything wrong with that. More power to them if it doesn't make it harder for anyone else. And of course people already funded are going to get stronger from new additions to the game than people less setup. That's just how this game works. It only makes sense that someone with 10k flat stat is going to gain more from some easily obtained %stat than someone with 1k. There's not going to be any items that just give a fixed amount of damage for everyone.