[2] Previously you indicated that you preferred a much more fast paced game, presumably in everything. While this may give you more satisfaction, wouldn't it be better if a game captivated you for several years? That's essentially the point I was trying to highlight. If you play through all the worthwhile content in 1-2 months and move on I would not call it a good game design. In fact, because I finished the MMO game so quickly it wouldn't as be enjoyable because it didn't allow me to stick around and enjoy much more content for at least a few years. I wouldn't be inclined to give it a high rating.
A well designed leveling scheme does that. Currently, leveling and skill unlocking is fast paced. Equipment enhancement is slow paced and acts as a substitute to the slow pacing of old Maple's leveling curve. Based on this, why is modern Maple more enjoyable for you? Do you simply prefer slower paced equipment progression over slower paced leveling progression? What's the reason for this? Is it solely because modern Maple has pay-to-win options?
[3] Do you prefer slow leveling or slow equipment progression with a pay-to-win option? Pick one.
That specific post, however, was to address the content versus reward argument which is not quite related to what you stated here.
[2] Doesn't really matter to me either way. There are tons of games I've played that are fun, but 1-2 hours long tops. I don't rate a game based on how long I spend on it. That might be one of your top criteria, but evidently, we have different criteria when judging the quality of a game.
Fast-pace means fast achievements. If I can beat 10 different bosses in a week's worth of game time, that's pretty nice. Spending 2 years to be able to do the same thing doesn't matter to me. That "hard work" means very little to me, although it may for others.
You keep saying equipment progression is slow. That is a very simplistic way of looking at it. Maybe if you're talking about reboot or end-game where you already have 50%+ potential on everything and looking for every bit of extra DPS, but it makes no sense to only focus on those conditions. I can probably spend a day's worth of work outside the game, to purchase one equip that will give me an extra million dmg off someone else who may have put in 6 months or 3 years of work into it. That is very fast to me, compared to the guy that worked 3 years for it only to sell it for what $50 worth of maple points?
Pay to win enables fast-paced progression. And for me, what matters is whether I can clear dungeons and kill bosses, not whether I can spend 3 years grinding to get to 275. Or in the case of old maple, I guess, 200 maybe?
So yes, if I had a choice between slow slow grinding vs "slow equipment progression" with pay to win options, I would defintely go for the pay to win option.
Doesn't really matter to me either way. There are tons of games I've played that are fun, but 1-2 hours long tops. I don't rate a game based on how long I spend on it. That might be one of your top criteria, but evidently, we have different criteria when judging the quality of a game.
Fast-pace means fast achievements. If I can beat 10 different bosses in a week's worth of game time, that's pretty nice. Spending 2 years to be able to do the same thing doesn't matter to me. That "hard work" means very little to me, although it may for others.
Sure, there are very casual games that I enjoyed playing for a day that I'd rate highly. However, for an MMO it's very different. If you were able to effectively clock an MMO in a day, chances are it'd have a very simplistic, one dimensional structure and very little content. As you indicated you prefer fast-paced progression in your last several posts (as you did not enjoy the long grind), you are more or less saying you prefer a game with superficial mechanics and lore. Take for example the fast paced leveling curve, where it is possible to get to 120 in a few hours, and the AOE attacks that every class has. You cannot fit proper mechanics for that level group because you kill things easily (1-2 button presses) and breeze through the levels very quickly.
If you did not care about the pace of progress, why is level progression (old Maple) less enjoyable than equipment progression (modern Maple)? You stated that in modern Maple, you have pay-to-win options to help boost your progression speed which indicates that you do care about the pacing of the game. So, presumably, you enjoy a game based on how fast you can beat it. If that is not the case, then is it just a preference thing that you enjoy equipment progression over level progression?
You keep saying equipment progression is slow. That is a very simplistic way of looking at it. Maybe if you're talking about reboot or end-game where you already have 50%+ potential on everything and looking for every bit of extra DPS, but it makes no sense to only focus on those conditions. I can probably spend a day's worth of work outside the game, to purchase one equip that will give me an extra million dmg off someone else who may have put in 6 months or 3 years of work into it. That is very fast to me, compared to the guy that worked 3 years for it only to sell it for what $50 worth of maple points?
Obviously progression without pay-to-win is slow. If pay-to-win allowing for fast-paced progression is why you enjoy a game, you could have already done that with high level character accounts.
Pay to win enables fast-paced progression. And for me, what matters is whether I can clear dungeons and kill bosses, not whether I can spend 3 years grinding to get to 275. Or in the case of old maple, I guess, 200 maybe?
Level progression and the ability to clear dungeons and kill bosses are not mutually exclusive. If old Maple had many more dungeons and bosses for different level groups, would that be a better game than it is now?
So yes, if I had a choice between slow slow grinding vs "slow equipment progression" with pay to win options, I would defintely go for the pay to win option.
The question I asked previously was whether you prefer slow grinding with pay-to-win options (e.g. ridiculous exp boosts) or slow equipment progression with pay-to-win options (e.g. Cash Shop cubes), and how do you go about making that assessment. My apologies for the confusion.
Sure, there are very casual games that I enjoyed playing for a day that I'd rate highly. However, for an MMO it's very different. If you were able to effectively clock an MMO in a day, chances are it'd have a very simplistic, one dimensional structure and very little content. As you indicated you prefer fast-paced progression in your last several posts (as you did not enjoy the long grind), you are more or less saying you prefer a game with superficial mechanics and lore. Take for example the fast paced leveling curve, where it is possible to get to 120 in a few hours, and the AOE attacks that every class has. You cannot fit proper mechanics for that level group because you kill things easily (1-2 button presses) and breeze through the levels very quickly.
You are wrong, and the fact that you're assuming a game is going to be superficial because it can be cleared within 24 hours or 2 hours tells me your criteria for "great game" is a lot shallower than I had originally thought. Maplestory is a perfect example of a simplistic one-dimensional game, with limited content, just arbitrarily made to last 3 years because of things like endless grinding sessions. There is no depth in its mechanics. You run around and kill things, using the same 3-4 main skills for the rest of the game. It could add more maps and more dungeons (theme dungeons, party quests, etc), but it's the same stuff in the end.
It doesn't seem like you're understanding what people are telling you. You are only focused on this superficial idea of "slow equipment enhancing" and "slow leveling", and the idea that artificially increasing playtime makes for a "much better game" because, revenue?
You certainly have no idea why I enjoy fast-paced games. A game is game. I have other priorities in life. Spending 3 months to level a character to 3rd job is a waste of time to me when I can probably play 200 games in that same amount of time and enjoy them fully. Spending 3 hours to unlock 3rd job, more acceptable.
Levels in maplestory is purely designed to block access to content. That's all it is. It limits you on what skills you can use, what equips you can wear, what dungeons you can access, and what bosses you can fight. You might consider that to be milestones that produce satisfaction, but I really don't care about "working" towards the next milestone, I just want to play the content. You're right, leveling and clearing dungeons are not mutually exclusive; one simply prevents you from doing the other.
And as far as "depth" is concerned, if you need to spend 3 months just to be able to experience the next 2 skills that you'll be using for another 8 months, what depth is there? That 8 months certainly doesn't make the game better. The amount of time you spend in that 8 months unlocking the next boss is purely a waste of time. You might see it as "hard work paying off, and only those that truly deserve it should get to experience it", but I wouldn't even play your game.
Your values when it comes to gaming is clearly different from mine, and I certainly hope whatever game you make, you don't force players to spend lots of time to do repetitive tasks because playtime is king.
You are wrong, and the fact that you're assuming a game is going to be superficial because it can be cleared within 24 hours or 2 hours tells me your criteria for "great game" is a lot shallower than I had originally thought. Maplestory is a perfect example of a simplistic one-dimensional game, with limited content, just arbitrarily made to last 3 years because of things like endless grinding sessions. There is no depth in its mechanics. You run around and kill things, using the same 3-4 main skills for the rest of the game. It could add more maps and more dungeons (theme dungeons, party quests, etc), but it's the same stuff in the end.
For modern Maple, that is correct. For old Maple, that is incorrect. The fact that you stated "You run around and kill things, using the same 3-4 main skills for the rest of the game" tells me that you completely overlook the subtle mechanics of a game, which is probably a big factor into why you prefer "fast paced" games.
Let's illustrate with a simple analogy. Suppose you play a character that has an active AOE attack that you can spam and kill everything in a second to gain exp quickly. Yes, in that context the game would have very superficial mechanics. Suppose the character did not have such AOE attacks and the monster's HP and stats are a bit higher. In that context, you have more leeway to implement your mechanics, including but not limited to
Prioritizing a player's defense, accuracy, and other stats besides damage ("How much damage will I receive if I am X class with xxx physical defense?", "How much accuracy do I need to hit these mobs?", "Do I have the gear with the right stats to fight these?")
Implementing mob attributes and attack style ("What attacks does this monster do?", "Does it have any specials or range attacks?", "Can I tank it? When do I dodge? How do I dodge? Can I dodge at all?")
Encouraging party play ("Do I need a cleric?", "Do I need a thief to give me haste?", "Do I need a thief who can use dark sight?", "Will I have enough HP even with a spearman's hyper body?")
Player movement and decisions ("When should I time my pot so I don't die?", "What platform do I need to be in and at what time to minimize my damage?", "When should I heal my party member?")
You throw ALL these factors out the window when you (1) implement an equipment progression scheme resulting in severe imbalances to the game, and (2) implement "easy", "fast paced" progression (e.g. whole map attacks that kill everything in 1-2 hits and ridiculous exp gains that allows one to breeze through content very quickly). You are correct when you say "you run around and kill things" - that's because you are looking at the game in a very superficial, end-result point of view and don't understand nor appreciate the mechanics that make a game great. Of course such a game is superficial if (1) and (2) were adopted.
Although far from "perfect", old Maple is merely closer to a game with in depth mechanics and a variety of factors (questions) and strategies, that one needs to consider while playing the game, than modern Maple. Modern Maple has next to no mechanics whatsoever because of (1) and (2).
It doesn't seem like you're understanding what people are telling you. You are only focused on this superficial idea of "slow equipment enhancing" and "slow leveling", and the idea that artificially increasing playtime makes for a "much better game" because, revenue?
I am not focused on "slow leveling" and "slow enhancing"; you completely misunderstood the dialogue. I am asking you why you prefer fast paced leveling (not the fact that I do or don't), specifically I am testing you to gauge your reasoning to understand the extent to why you prefer one to be fast or slow and which you prefer. One reason you stated why you prefer modern Maple is because there is pay-to-win to supplement slow paced equipment progression. The question I posed to you was if there was pay-to-win to supplement slow paced leveling progression, which would you prefer? So far, you have not answered this.
Artificially increasing the playtime itself does not make for a better game. What I enjoy about a game is its mechanics - how much role each stat plays in a combat setting, how much I need to strategize, and how many additional factors are at play. Fast paced games to the speed you indicate do not allow a player to experience much of that; it's akin to playing a movie in 4x speed, giving it a 10/10 and calling it a day. In contrast, you appear to hold the opposite view - that lowering the playtime makes for a better game. My opposition is that you hold a very extreme view in this regard. Let me test you once again, if you could press a button to reach level 250 and have all the endgame equips, cubes, and other enchanting items you needed, would the game be more enjoyable?
You certainly have no idea why I enjoy fast-paced games. A game is game. I have other priorities in life. Spending 3 months to level a character to 3rd job is a waste of time to me when I can probably play 200 games in that same amount of time and enjoy them fully. Spending 3 hours to unlock 3rd job, more acceptable.
If you are willing to devote time to 200 other games in substitute of the time you would have invested into one game, clearly time is not a factor. You are merely using the other games as a substitute because you find them to be more fulfilling than if one MMO were to be fleshed out. I am pointing out that a great MMORPG specifically would captivate most players for years; a few months minimum. You seem to be conflating an MMORPG with that of a cheap mobile game that one should be able to complete in a few days for "instant satisfaction". Obviously we have a different criteria in this regard; I'd rate an MMORPG differently than I would a mobile game. More specifically, it'd rate it based on the number of content it has, what type of content there is, what are the mechanics, and how captivating it is and how long it lures me in to name a few.
Levels in maplestory is purely designed to block access to content. That's all it is. It limits you on what skills you can use, what equips you can wear, what dungeons you can access, and what bosses you can fight. You might consider that to be milestones that produce satisfaction, but I really don't care about "working" towards the next milestone, I just want to play the content. You're right, leveling and clearing dungeons are not mutually exclusive; one simply prevents you from doing the other.
You are correct that levels are made to block content. That's the whole point of a leveling system - to balance content based on amount of progression.
And as far as "depth" is concerned, if you need to spend 3 months just to be able to experience the next 2 skills that you'll be using for another 8 months, what depth is there? That 8 months certainly doesn't make the game better. The amount of time you spend in that 8 months unlocking the next boss is purely a waste of time. You might see it as "hard work paying off, and only those that truly deserve it should get to experience it", but I wouldn't even play your game.
Th depth lies in the mechanics and how much of an immediate thrilling experience you get as you play the content, with the milestone being complementary only. Very high exp gains (coupled with one-hit-kill full screen AOE attacks) kills that experience very quickly. You are, once again, looking at the game with a very superficial, end-result oriented point of view.
Yet you are playing a game that, for most people, requires months of effort but shifted from a leveling focus to an equipment based focus. Let me ask you this, do you spend money on this game and how much do you spend in obtaining high end gear? If you don't spend, why do you play? If you do spend and if you were given a similar option for leveling instead of equipment enhancing, how do you go about evaluating the two scenarios in terms of enjoyment?
For modern Maple, that is correct. For old Maple, that is incorrect. The fact that you stated "You run around and kill things, using the same 3-4 main skills for the rest of the game" tells me that you completely overlook the subtle mechanics of a game, which is probably a big factor into why you prefer "fast paced" games.
Let's illustrate with a simple analogy. Suppose you play a character that has an active AOE attack that you can spam and kill everything in a second to gain exp quickly. Yes, in that context the game would have very superficial mechanics. Suppose the character did not have such AOE attacks and the monster's HP and stats are a bit higher. In that context, you have more leeway to implement your mechanics, including but not limited to
Prioritizing a player's defense, accuracy, and other stats besides damage ("How much damage will I receive if I am X class with xxx physical defense?", "How much accuracy do I need to hit these mobs?", "Do I have the gear with the right stats to fight these?")
Implementing mob attributes and attack style ("What attacks does this monster do?", "Does it have any specials or range attacks?", "Can I tank it? When do I dodge? How do I dodge? Can I dodge at all?")
Encouraging party play ("Do I need a cleric?", "Do I need a thief to give me haste?", "Do I need a thief who can use dark sight?", "Will I have enough HP even with a spearman's hyper body?")
Player movement and decisions ("When should I time my pot so I don't die?", "What platform do I need to be in and at what time to minimize my damage?", "When should I heal my party member?")
Your own criteria for a good game has nothing to do with time.
If you are interested in game mechanics, don't spend 90% of your time arguing about irrelevant things and try to convince yourself that TIME is somehow relevant and necessary for players to have a good time, or that your standards for enjoyment are "better" than others.
Your constant focus on "slow leveling" vs "slow equip enhancement" hinges on your twisted generalizations that
1. (MMO) games that can be cleared in 24 hours have SUPERFICIAL MECHANICS AND LORE
2. games that can be cleared in a short time ARE NOT AS ENJOYABLE because "it didn't allow me to stick around and enjoy much more content for at least a few years."
These are your own issues. Don't blame a game for not forcing you to stay or enjoying content because you could beat it quickly. Current maple offers players the option to level very fast to 100 or 200, but you can take your time and enjoy the content as well and slowly level if you want to enjoy the mechanics. You don't need to wear the best gear and participate in the rat race to get high DPS. Just find people that think the same way and want to "experience game mechanics" the way you want.
If you want to stay weak to challenge yourself, you can always use weak equips and weak skills. If you don't want to gain exp super fast with full-screen AOE, don't use them.
If you are willing to devote time to 200 other games in substitute of the time you would have invested into one game, clearly time is not a factor.
I have no problem spending an hour on 200 games each and clearing them all.
I do have a problem spending 200 hours to gain 1% exp, even if I need to utilize "subtle game mechanics" during that time to achieve that 1%.
If you read these two statements and still think "clearly time is not a factor", you just either don't understand, or you're just saying whatever you want.
If you believe old maple was good because it arbitrarily forced people to spend 200 hours to grind for one level because you like "slow leveling" as a form of progression instead of "slow equipment enhancement", that's on you. Don't force everyone else to spend 3 months to unlock the next two skills they'll be using for another 8 months just because you need some arbitrary reason to "make you stay and enjoy more content", or tell them that their way of finding enjoyment in a game is somehow wrong.
Your own criteria for a good game has nothing to do with time.
If you are interested in game mechanics, don't spend 90% of your time arguing about irrelevant things and try to convince yourself that TIME is somehow relevant and necessary for players to have a good time, or that your standards for enjoyment are "better" than others.
You are still not understanding the link between time and mechanics. If you play a game that requires 200 hours of game time between levels 1 to 100, mechanics can be involved. If you play a game that required 2,000 hours, still mechanics can be involved. If you shorten the time to 2 hours from 1 to 100, likely one or more factors or scenarios come into mind, including
There is very little meaningful content between those levels
The mechanics for the content are developed in a haste or are not well thought out (e.g. you OHKO many mobs and gain level ups very quickly) (this closely resembles the structure of the current game)
The mechanics are there but you cannot fully invest into one area, one map, one level group specific content, or one aspect of gameplay for too long (e.g. each monster gives a ridiculous amount of exp but are "harder" to kill in a layman's terms, however you kill a few of them and move on)
I am talking about the extreme shorter end of the time scale.
Your constant focus on "slow leveling" vs "slow equip enhancement" hinges on your twisted generalizations that
1. (MMO) games that can be cleared in 24 hours have SUPERFICIAL MECHANICS AND LORE
2. games that can be cleared in a short time ARE NOT AS ENJOYABLE because "it didn't allow me to stick around and enjoy much more content for at least a few years."
"Slow leveling" and "slow enhancing" are not included in any of my own viewpoints. You have completely misunderstood the dialogue and it is evidently clear from your avoidance of addressing the questions I posed to you on this sub-topic, the questions being:
(1) How do you assess "slow leveling" coupled with pay-to-win compared to "slow enhancing" coupled with pay-to-win in terms of enjoyment?
(2) If you can press a button to obtain all the levels and gear you need, would the game be more enjoyable?
(3) Are you spending money on this game seemingly as you are advocating for the pay-to-win options this game provides to lower the game time?
Your argument for an enjoyable game, however, hinges on the speed at which you progress rather than the mechanics themselves.
For 1., see the bullet point list. For 2. I am strictly speaking about MMORPGs here where the expectation is that there is content that players can enjoy for at least several months. It's not that they are less enjoyable (sure I can get a thrill from those 2 hours of playing the game), but I would not rate it highly if 2 hours was all there was to an MMORPG. I don't rate an MMO highly because it has "slow leveling" or "slow enhancing"; I base this primarily off mechanics. However if I were to play an MMO that one could effectively complete in 2 hours, I would NOT be inclined to rate it highly. Make sense? In contrast, the shorter the MMO is the higher you will likely rate it apparently.
It is clear that you are conflating MMORPGs with casual mobile games, and don't understand that an MMORPG is infinitely more complex and that players have different expectations going into an MMORPG (which is why you may be inclined to rate an MMO highly as long as you complete it in a very short time frame). You do understand that players often complain of lack of content in other MMOs, right?
These are your own issues. Don't blame a game for not forcing you to stay or enjoying content because you could beat it quickly. Current maple offers players the option to level very fast to 100 or 200, but you can take your time and enjoy the content as well and slowly level if you want to enjoy the mechanics. You don't need to wear the best gear and participate in the rat race to get high DPS. Just find people that think the same way and want to "experience game mechanics" the way you want.
If you want to stay weak to challenge yourself, you can always use weak equips and weak skills. If you don't want to gain exp super fast with full-screen AOE, don't use them.
Modern Maple has no mechanics regardless of what equips you use. For example, mobs do very little damage and there is very little diversity in stats and skill function. Furthermore, given the option, people would always be inclined take the path of least resistance. If devs gave every account access to any level 275 character with max damage range after you play the game for an hour, people would play on those characters. That doesn't mean the game is now better (although it may be for you personally). Old Maple had more complex mechanics.
I have no problem spending an hour on 200 games each and clearing them all.
I do have a problem spending 200 hours to gain 1% exp, even if I need to utilize "subtle game mechanics" during that time to achieve that 1%.
If you read these two statements and still think "clearly time is not a factor", you just either don't understand, or you're just saying whatever you want.
If you spend 500 hours in total per year on video gaming, regardless of whether you are spending that 500 hours into one game or 200 games, your time consumption on gaming in general is not the factor. You are merely indicating that you did not enjoy enough of that one game, or it didn't have enough worthwhile content that you would spend on an alternative 199 games in those 500 gaming hours. Make sense? However, since you are judging a game based on how fast you can complete it, you likely wouldn't pay attention to the actual quality of the content at all which would make sense that in general playing 200 games is more worthwhile than playing one in your viewpoint.
If you believe old maple was good because it arbitrarily forced people to spend 200 hours to grind for one level because you like "slow leveling" as a form of progression instead of "slow equipment enhancement", that's on you. Don't force everyone else to spend 3 months to unlock the next two skills they'll be using for another 8 months just because you need some arbitrary reason to "make you stay and enjoy more content", or tell them that their way of finding enjoyment in a game is somehow wrong.
For the bolded, incorrect; it is evident that you did not understand what was stated.
For the bolded, incorrect; it is evident that you did not understand what was stated.
Why are you even wasting your time it's clear some people value their time more they don't care about the game
Pay to win "players" only exist to pay to get what they "want" in games and toss it aside when it's finished or they realize they are being milked out of their wallet
Meta $$ end game players
--casualy flex with frenzy cast at end boss because much cash was used --
Few years ago they complaind and made it Zakum prequest remove
Why work for it when you can log in charge-fund and kill it solo next meta content please .... Am gamer I dont want to log in and spend some time gameing..
Am disappointed there is no Blackmage solo yet on all that $$fund$$
Maybe next year when new meta content for whales is presented
Just like normal/hard lucid last year ( hmm almost dont need to kill when you can get most of it from marvel/Philo...)
Why would I spend time training for years to go on Olympic games
When I can go there and just buy the medals, pay other olympian to quit or other shortcuts...
#real2020olympian
#SoonTm
With the trend in gaming these days, where it's quite easy to level up to a point where you can experience most of what a particular class has to offer
The trend in gaming these days is to introduce an old school server for peeps who liked the old grind. While we're here arguing and wimpering about how crappy old maple is, OSRS and now WOW classic are booming.
With the trend in gaming these days, where it's quite easy to level up to a point where you can experience most of what a particular class has to offer
The trend in gaming these days is to introduce an old school server for peeps who liked the old grind. While we're here arguing and wimpering about how crappy old maple is, OSRS and now WOW classic are booming.
in before 'thats a different game...bla bla bla'
In before ban/remove you mean cus "rules" bla bla ~
But that other guy is right all we can do is move on
untill nexon america see their major changes fail hard over time and see MapleStory get clogged with bunch of useless content (as its not all ready but meta $$ end game players are pushing for it or they will quit...)
Why fix/update current things just quick add new
New lvl cap new dmg cap new boss or $$ players are getting bored with Max things and will leave, skip story just go meta and p2w
The trend in gaming these days is to introduce an old school server for peeps who liked the old grind. While we're here arguing and wimpering about how crappy old maple is, OSRS and now WOW classic are booming.
in before 'thats a different game...bla bla bla'
A trend that doesn't always work. If you want the old grind and systems, you're free to whimper away from Nexon and play [Redacted].
You can even pick from several [Redacted] to get the exact version to suit your nostalgia.
Nexon does need to change game plans going forward. But that's the keyword, forward.
A "nostalgia/classic" server does nothing but split the already split community even further apart. Let's not, okay?
The trend in gaming these days is to introduce an old school server for peeps who liked the old grind. While we're here arguing and wimpering about how crappy old maple is, OSRS and now WOW classic are booming.
in before 'thats a different game...bla bla bla'
A trend that doesn't always work. If you want the old grind and systems, you're free to whimper away from Nexon and play [Redacted].
You can even pick from several [Redacted] to get the exact version to suit your nostalgia.
Nexon does need to change game plans going forward. But that's the keyword, forward.
A "nostalgia/classic" server does nothing but split the already split community even further apart. Let's not, okay?
It's impossible to move forward with a game that has no mechanics and no depth to its combat whatsoever as a result of the fundamental features of the game that players have spent countless hours and money on.
You're insisting that living with or trying to treat incurable cancer is better than reversing time given the ability to do so.
The trend in gaming these days is to introduce an old school server for peeps who liked the old grind. While we're here arguing and wimpering about how crappy old maple is, OSRS and now WOW classic are booming.
in before 'thats a different game...bla bla bla'
A trend that doesn't always work. If you want the old grind and systems, you're free to whimper away from Nexon and play [Redacted].
You can even pick from several [Redacted] to get the exact version to suit your nostalgia.
Nexon does need to change game plans going forward. But that's the keyword, forward.
A "nostalgia/classic" server does nothing but split the already split community even further apart. Let's not, okay?
Ah yes nothing keeps our community so tight knit than a 'GO AND PLAY lLLEGAL SERVERS THEN' response. Thanks buddy, I look forward to contributing toward stolen content before nexon inevitably [Redacts] them...
Comments
[2] Doesn't really matter to me either way. There are tons of games I've played that are fun, but 1-2 hours long tops. I don't rate a game based on how long I spend on it. That might be one of your top criteria, but evidently, we have different criteria when judging the quality of a game.
Fast-pace means fast achievements. If I can beat 10 different bosses in a week's worth of game time, that's pretty nice. Spending 2 years to be able to do the same thing doesn't matter to me. That "hard work" means very little to me, although it may for others.
You keep saying equipment progression is slow. That is a very simplistic way of looking at it. Maybe if you're talking about reboot or end-game where you already have 50%+ potential on everything and looking for every bit of extra DPS, but it makes no sense to only focus on those conditions. I can probably spend a day's worth of work outside the game, to purchase one equip that will give me an extra million dmg off someone else who may have put in 6 months or 3 years of work into it. That is very fast to me, compared to the guy that worked 3 years for it only to sell it for what $50 worth of maple points?
Pay to win enables fast-paced progression. And for me, what matters is whether I can clear dungeons and kill bosses, not whether I can spend 3 years grinding to get to 275. Or in the case of old maple, I guess, 200 maybe?
So yes, if I had a choice between slow slow grinding vs "slow equipment progression" with pay to win options, I would defintely go for the pay to win option.
Sure, there are very casual games that I enjoyed playing for a day that I'd rate highly. However, for an MMO it's very different. If you were able to effectively clock an MMO in a day, chances are it'd have a very simplistic, one dimensional structure and very little content. As you indicated you prefer fast-paced progression in your last several posts (as you did not enjoy the long grind), you are more or less saying you prefer a game with superficial mechanics and lore. Take for example the fast paced leveling curve, where it is possible to get to 120 in a few hours, and the AOE attacks that every class has. You cannot fit proper mechanics for that level group because you kill things easily (1-2 button presses) and breeze through the levels very quickly.
If you did not care about the pace of progress, why is level progression (old Maple) less enjoyable than equipment progression (modern Maple)? You stated that in modern Maple, you have pay-to-win options to help boost your progression speed which indicates that you do care about the pacing of the game. So, presumably, you enjoy a game based on how fast you can beat it. If that is not the case, then is it just a preference thing that you enjoy equipment progression over level progression?
Obviously progression without pay-to-win is slow. If pay-to-win allowing for fast-paced progression is why you enjoy a game, you could have already done that with high level character accounts.
Level progression and the ability to clear dungeons and kill bosses are not mutually exclusive. If old Maple had many more dungeons and bosses for different level groups, would that be a better game than it is now?
The question I asked previously was whether you prefer slow grinding with pay-to-win options (e.g. ridiculous exp boosts) or slow equipment progression with pay-to-win options (e.g. Cash Shop cubes), and how do you go about making that assessment. My apologies for the confusion.
You are wrong, and the fact that you're assuming a game is going to be superficial because it can be cleared within 24 hours or 2 hours tells me your criteria for "great game" is a lot shallower than I had originally thought. Maplestory is a perfect example of a simplistic one-dimensional game, with limited content, just arbitrarily made to last 3 years because of things like endless grinding sessions. There is no depth in its mechanics. You run around and kill things, using the same 3-4 main skills for the rest of the game. It could add more maps and more dungeons (theme dungeons, party quests, etc), but it's the same stuff in the end.
It doesn't seem like you're understanding what people are telling you. You are only focused on this superficial idea of "slow equipment enhancing" and "slow leveling", and the idea that artificially increasing playtime makes for a "much better game" because, revenue?
You certainly have no idea why I enjoy fast-paced games. A game is game. I have other priorities in life. Spending 3 months to level a character to 3rd job is a waste of time to me when I can probably play 200 games in that same amount of time and enjoy them fully. Spending 3 hours to unlock 3rd job, more acceptable.
Levels in maplestory is purely designed to block access to content. That's all it is. It limits you on what skills you can use, what equips you can wear, what dungeons you can access, and what bosses you can fight. You might consider that to be milestones that produce satisfaction, but I really don't care about "working" towards the next milestone, I just want to play the content. You're right, leveling and clearing dungeons are not mutually exclusive; one simply prevents you from doing the other.
And as far as "depth" is concerned, if you need to spend 3 months just to be able to experience the next 2 skills that you'll be using for another 8 months, what depth is there? That 8 months certainly doesn't make the game better. The amount of time you spend in that 8 months unlocking the next boss is purely a waste of time. You might see it as "hard work paying off, and only those that truly deserve it should get to experience it", but I wouldn't even play your game.
Your values when it comes to gaming is clearly different from mine, and I certainly hope whatever game you make, you don't force players to spend lots of time to do repetitive tasks because playtime is king.
For modern Maple, that is correct. For old Maple, that is incorrect. The fact that you stated "You run around and kill things, using the same 3-4 main skills for the rest of the game" tells me that you completely overlook the subtle mechanics of a game, which is probably a big factor into why you prefer "fast paced" games.
Let's illustrate with a simple analogy. Suppose you play a character that has an active AOE attack that you can spam and kill everything in a second to gain exp quickly. Yes, in that context the game would have very superficial mechanics. Suppose the character did not have such AOE attacks and the monster's HP and stats are a bit higher. In that context, you have more leeway to implement your mechanics, including but not limited to
You throw ALL these factors out the window when you (1) implement an equipment progression scheme resulting in severe imbalances to the game, and (2) implement "easy", "fast paced" progression (e.g. whole map attacks that kill everything in 1-2 hits and ridiculous exp gains that allows one to breeze through content very quickly). You are correct when you say "you run around and kill things" - that's because you are looking at the game in a very superficial, end-result point of view and don't understand nor appreciate the mechanics that make a game great. Of course such a game is superficial if (1) and (2) were adopted.
Although far from "perfect", old Maple is merely closer to a game with in depth mechanics and a variety of factors (questions) and strategies, that one needs to consider while playing the game, than modern Maple. Modern Maple has next to no mechanics whatsoever because of (1) and (2).
I am not focused on "slow leveling" and "slow enhancing"; you completely misunderstood the dialogue. I am asking you why you prefer fast paced leveling (not the fact that I do or don't), specifically I am testing you to gauge your reasoning to understand the extent to why you prefer one to be fast or slow and which you prefer. One reason you stated why you prefer modern Maple is because there is pay-to-win to supplement slow paced equipment progression. The question I posed to you was if there was pay-to-win to supplement slow paced leveling progression, which would you prefer? So far, you have not answered this.
Artificially increasing the playtime itself does not make for a better game. What I enjoy about a game is its mechanics - how much role each stat plays in a combat setting, how much I need to strategize, and how many additional factors are at play. Fast paced games to the speed you indicate do not allow a player to experience much of that; it's akin to playing a movie in 4x speed, giving it a 10/10 and calling it a day. In contrast, you appear to hold the opposite view - that lowering the playtime makes for a better game. My opposition is that you hold a very extreme view in this regard. Let me test you once again, if you could press a button to reach level 250 and have all the endgame equips, cubes, and other enchanting items you needed, would the game be more enjoyable?
If you are willing to devote time to 200 other games in substitute of the time you would have invested into one game, clearly time is not a factor. You are merely using the other games as a substitute because you find them to be more fulfilling than if one MMO were to be fleshed out. I am pointing out that a great MMORPG specifically would captivate most players for years; a few months minimum. You seem to be conflating an MMORPG with that of a cheap mobile game that one should be able to complete in a few days for "instant satisfaction". Obviously we have a different criteria in this regard; I'd rate an MMORPG differently than I would a mobile game. More specifically, it'd rate it based on the number of content it has, what type of content there is, what are the mechanics, and how captivating it is and how long it lures me in to name a few.
You are correct that levels are made to block content. That's the whole point of a leveling system - to balance content based on amount of progression.
Th depth lies in the mechanics and how much of an immediate thrilling experience you get as you play the content, with the milestone being complementary only. Very high exp gains (coupled with one-hit-kill full screen AOE attacks) kills that experience very quickly. You are, once again, looking at the game with a very superficial, end-result oriented point of view.
Yet you are playing a game that, for most people, requires months of effort but shifted from a leveling focus to an equipment based focus. Let me ask you this, do you spend money on this game and how much do you spend in obtaining high end gear? If you don't spend, why do you play? If you do spend and if you were given a similar option for leveling instead of equipment enhancing, how do you go about evaluating the two scenarios in terms of enjoyment?
Your own criteria for a good game has nothing to do with time.
If you are interested in game mechanics, don't spend 90% of your time arguing about irrelevant things and try to convince yourself that TIME is somehow relevant and necessary for players to have a good time, or that your standards for enjoyment are "better" than others.
Your constant focus on "slow leveling" vs "slow equip enhancement" hinges on your twisted generalizations that
1. (MMO) games that can be cleared in 24 hours have SUPERFICIAL MECHANICS AND LORE
2. games that can be cleared in a short time ARE NOT AS ENJOYABLE because "it didn't allow me to stick around and enjoy much more content for at least a few years."
These are your own issues. Don't blame a game for not forcing you to stay or enjoying content because you could beat it quickly. Current maple offers players the option to level very fast to 100 or 200, but you can take your time and enjoy the content as well and slowly level if you want to enjoy the mechanics. You don't need to wear the best gear and participate in the rat race to get high DPS. Just find people that think the same way and want to "experience game mechanics" the way you want.
If you want to stay weak to challenge yourself, you can always use weak equips and weak skills. If you don't want to gain exp super fast with full-screen AOE, don't use them.
I have no problem spending an hour on 200 games each and clearing them all.
I do have a problem spending 200 hours to gain 1% exp, even if I need to utilize "subtle game mechanics" during that time to achieve that 1%.
If you read these two statements and still think "clearly time is not a factor", you just either don't understand, or you're just saying whatever you want.
If you believe old maple was good because it arbitrarily forced people to spend 200 hours to grind for one level because you like "slow leveling" as a form of progression instead of "slow equipment enhancement", that's on you. Don't force everyone else to spend 3 months to unlock the next two skills they'll be using for another 8 months just because you need some arbitrary reason to "make you stay and enjoy more content", or tell them that their way of finding enjoyment in a game is somehow wrong.
You are still not understanding the link between time and mechanics. If you play a game that requires 200 hours of game time between levels 1 to 100, mechanics can be involved. If you play a game that required 2,000 hours, still mechanics can be involved. If you shorten the time to 2 hours from 1 to 100, likely one or more factors or scenarios come into mind, including
I am talking about the extreme shorter end of the time scale.
"Slow leveling" and "slow enhancing" are not included in any of my own viewpoints. You have completely misunderstood the dialogue and it is evidently clear from your avoidance of addressing the questions I posed to you on this sub-topic, the questions being:
(1) How do you assess "slow leveling" coupled with pay-to-win compared to "slow enhancing" coupled with pay-to-win in terms of enjoyment?
(2) If you can press a button to obtain all the levels and gear you need, would the game be more enjoyable?
(3) Are you spending money on this game seemingly as you are advocating for the pay-to-win options this game provides to lower the game time?
Your argument for an enjoyable game, however, hinges on the speed at which you progress rather than the mechanics themselves.
For 1., see the bullet point list. For 2. I am strictly speaking about MMORPGs here where the expectation is that there is content that players can enjoy for at least several months. It's not that they are less enjoyable (sure I can get a thrill from those 2 hours of playing the game), but I would not rate it highly if 2 hours was all there was to an MMORPG. I don't rate an MMO highly because it has "slow leveling" or "slow enhancing"; I base this primarily off mechanics. However if I were to play an MMO that one could effectively complete in 2 hours, I would NOT be inclined to rate it highly. Make sense? In contrast, the shorter the MMO is the higher you will likely rate it apparently.
It is clear that you are conflating MMORPGs with casual mobile games, and don't understand that an MMORPG is infinitely more complex and that players have different expectations going into an MMORPG (which is why you may be inclined to rate an MMO highly as long as you complete it in a very short time frame). You do understand that players often complain of lack of content in other MMOs, right?
Modern Maple has no mechanics regardless of what equips you use. For example, mobs do very little damage and there is very little diversity in stats and skill function. Furthermore, given the option, people would always be inclined take the path of least resistance. If devs gave every account access to any level 275 character with max damage range after you play the game for an hour, people would play on those characters. That doesn't mean the game is now better (although it may be for you personally). Old Maple had more complex mechanics.
If you spend 500 hours in total per year on video gaming, regardless of whether you are spending that 500 hours into one game or 200 games, your time consumption on gaming in general is not the factor. You are merely indicating that you did not enjoy enough of that one game, or it didn't have enough worthwhile content that you would spend on an alternative 199 games in those 500 gaming hours. Make sense? However, since you are judging a game based on how fast you can complete it, you likely wouldn't pay attention to the actual quality of the content at all which would make sense that in general playing 200 games is more worthwhile than playing one in your viewpoint.
For the bolded, incorrect; it is evident that you did not understand what was stated.
Why are you even wasting your time it's clear some people value their time more they don't care about the game
Pay to win "players" only exist to pay to get what they "want" in games and toss it aside when it's finished or they realize they are being milked out of their wallet
--casualy flex with frenzy cast at end boss because much cash was used --
Few years ago they complaind and made it Zakum prequest remove
Why work for it when you can log in charge-fund and kill it solo next meta content please ....
Am gamer I dont want to log in and spend some time gameing..Am disappointed there is no Blackmage solo yet on all that $$fund$$
Maybe next year when new meta content for whales is presented
Just like normal/hard lucid last year ( hmm almost dont need to kill when you can get most of it from marvel/Philo...)
Why would I spend time training for years to go on Olympic games
When I can go there and just buy the medals, pay other olympian to quit or other shortcuts...
#real2020olympian
#SoonTm
The trend in gaming these days is to introduce an old school server for peeps who liked the old grind. While we're here arguing and wimpering about how crappy old maple is, OSRS and now WOW classic are booming.
in before 'thats a different game...bla bla bla'
In before ban/remove you mean cus "rules" bla bla ~
But that other guy is right all we can do is move on
untill nexon america see their major changes fail hard over time and see MapleStory get clogged with bunch of useless content (as its not all ready but meta $$ end game players are pushing for it or they will quit...)
Why fix/update current things just quick add new
New lvl cap new dmg cap new boss or $$ players are getting bored with Max things and will leave, skip story just go meta and p2w
A trend that doesn't always work. If you want the old grind and systems, you're free to whimper away from Nexon and play [Redacted].
You can even pick from several [Redacted] to get the exact version to suit your nostalgia.
Nexon does need to change game plans going forward. But that's the keyword, forward.
A "nostalgia/classic" server does nothing but split the already split community even further apart. Let's not, okay?
It's impossible to move forward with a game that has no mechanics and no depth to its combat whatsoever as a result of the fundamental features of the game that players have spent countless hours and money on.
You're insisting that living with or trying to treat incurable cancer is better than reversing time given the ability to do so.
Ah yes nothing keeps our community so tight knit than a 'GO AND PLAY lLLEGAL SERVERS THEN' response. Thanks buddy, I look forward to contributing toward stolen content before nexon inevitably [Redacts] them...