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HeinekenHeroHeinekenHero
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edited June 2017 in General Chat
What was the point of increasing the defence cap if they are now reversing thecap for hayatos backto what it was before update. I have a relatively new character but I already will be losing 1/3 ofmy damage. I can't imagine fundedcharacters. There is no point in obtaining %def on items for hayatoanymore as the 10k defencecap is reached with gear base stats alone

Comments

  • HeinekenHeroHeinekenHero
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    edited June 2017
    AlexF wrote: »
    Hayato's new skill, introduced in Override, let's them keep 100% final damage up at all times if used correctly.

    The class BADLY needed to be rebalanced.

    i don't know if that makes up for that fact most funded players will lose 80% of their range. Also thats only possible with maxed nodes which is even more unlikely. Literally there is no use for %Def now which I know people have gotten on their gear which means reroolling . I understand the rebalance, but reverting it back to original defence cap seems extreme.
  • Retr0_Retr0_
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    edited June 2017
    Everyone knew Hayato was about to get nerf'd sooner or later. It was only a matter of time. What? You thought they'll let a 500% final dmg char walk freely? Naah...besides their new 5th job skill is top tier.
    Its2Sharp4Udeadend5193
  • Its2Sharp4UIts2Sharp4U
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    edited June 2017
    Because most people at 2mill range barely if can't solo CVell, but 2mill ranage Hayato with a passive 100% up-time that's absolutely roof-shattering one-shotting CVell isn't OP.

    EDIT: Retracting my comment.
  • PirateIzzyPirateIzzy
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    edited June 2017
    It was bound to happen eventually. The thing is, KoreaMS doesn't have Hayato, so the Defense cap increase was an oversight on JapanMS's part; they didn't realize how OP it would be for Hayatos.
    Its2Sharp4U
  • CatoooloooCatooolooo
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    edited June 2017
    where'd this info come from?
  • Its2Sharp4UIts2Sharp4U
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    edited June 2017
    Catooolooo wrote: »
    where'd this info come from?

    This information for the Shimada Heart rework reducing it's effect from 99,999 -> 9,999 came from the June 16th, 2017 live stream.
    Catooolooo
  • CatoooloooCatooolooo
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    edited June 2017
    Catooolooo wrote: »
    where'd this info come from?

    This information for the Shimada Heart rework reducing it's effect from 99,999 -> 9,999 came from the June 16th, 2017 live stream.

    ah ok, so they are just capping shimada heart.

    @OP

    they def cap change was not done for hayato to have increased power from shimada heart, and shimada heart was arguably not the main way you were meant to increase hayato's damage as his main stat was not Def, it was and is Str, though I wish they let it go a little beyond the old cap to maybe 20k.

    the only people I feel sorry for are people that heavily invested in Def stat even though a cap on shimada heart was obviously going to happen
  • HeinekenHeroHeinekenHero
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    edited June 2017
    Because most people at 2mill range barely if can't solo CVell, but 2mill ranage Hayato with a passive 100% up-time that's absolutely roof-shattering one-shotting CVell isn't OP.

    XD i have 3m range and theres no way im 1 shotting cvell you seem to be verry miss informed. The amoount of range you need for cvell is arguably more like 10m range and even then you are not 1 shotting. Actually on youtube in order to 1shot Slade has around 50m range so thats alittle more than 2m.
  • RailBirdRailBird
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    edited June 2017
    Hayato was ridiculously overpowered and unbalanced after the changes to the defense system. This nerf would've happened a long time ago if Hayato (and Kanna) were developed and maintained by KMS.
  • Its2Sharp4UIts2Sharp4U
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    edited June 2017
    Because most people at 2mill range barely if can't solo CVell, but 2mill ranage Hayato with a passive 100% up-time that's absolutely roof-shattering one-shotting CVell isn't OP.

    XD i have 3m range and theres no way im 1 shotting cvell you seem to be verry miss informed. The amoount of range you need for cvell is arguably more like 10m range and even then you are not 1 shotting. Actually on youtube in order to 1shot Slade has around 50m range so thats alittle more than 2m.

    Alright lets see...
    According to this post on r/MapleStory:
    ZomgNit:
    As a result of this correction, this nerf actually brings Hayato much more in line with other classes. After factoring in the nerf and the 100% final dmg from the Beyond skill, Hayato would be approximately 61.5% as strong as he is right now, meaning he would remain about 1.2x stronger than most other classes (as opposed to 2x+)

    and this one on r/MapleStory:
    DeathOFKing:
    Those DEF potentials made something that was already too strong, into something even stronger. You gain DEF as you gain str, dex, luk, int . If you just factor in Str alone, your DEF is 1.2x your STR plus any defence from your gear. If you presume a 40k str Hayato who has no DEF potential gear, they already have around 48k DEF (lets round to 50k since I still havent factored in DEF from equips). Thats a 250% Final Damage Boost, which is still over 2x stronger than any comparable top tier class. Then you add the beyond skill on top. (remember final damage boost is multiplicative with other sources of final damage boost). Meaning you as a Beyond Hayato are miles ahead before even factoring in %DEF Potentials. The gap between a %DEF optimised Hayato would be double that. The rankings were essentially.

    1. Hayato with 100% or more DEF potentials. (missing 10-12 lines of % str)
    2. Hayato with Pure STR potential
    3. Everyone Else

    From what I'm seeing Hayatos are currently 2x more powerful than most classes. Following the fix/nerf/whatever-you-may-call-it they will still be 1.2x stronger than most other classes. It's not a nerf by 10x which many of us (including me) assumed wrong in the first place.

    This mean they will only lose 2/5ths of their damage when the Override Patch hits.

    At the worst, end-game Hayatos will lose a big advantage in range due to an unaccounted factor that was introduced in the V Patch as many have said. The increase in defense from 9,999 -> 99,999 was not intended by the developers of Shimada Heart. This was said in both cases of CMS Patch Notes, and the recent GMS live-steam on June 16th, 2017.

    It's unfortunate for those who cubed for DEF% or chose to main Hayato due to being one of the top of the damage list at that point, but unfortunately that's what happens on a bandwagon. For those who had a Hayato main before V Patch this should of been seen miles away, 9,999 to 99,999 is a huge difference. STR already boosts defense to begin with (and practically every other stat in the game too) so that should've been a giant indicator even though it passed through in the beginning.

    Following the Override Patch they gain another 5th Job Skill Iaijutsu Phantom Blade that at Level 25: Consumes 200 Blade Force. Final damage +20% for 30 sec per stack (up to 5 stacks I assume).
    DeathOFKing:
    The problem is, they ARENT GOING TO BE TOO WEAK compared to other classes. They go from being the uncontested top to being the top.

    So what's the counter-argument to reconsider Shimada Heart? It can't be DEF% being useless because most classes only have one primary stat % line they can roll for.
  • RegretfuIlyRegretfuIly
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    edited June 2017
    RIP bandwagoners. See you all on the next hyped character, until it gets nerfed.
  • HeinekenHeroHeinekenHero
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    edited June 2017
    Because most people at 2mill range barely if can't solo CVell, but 2mill ranage Hayato with a passive 100% up-time that's absolutely roof-shattering one-shotting CVell isn't OP.

    XD i have 3m range and theres no way im 1 shotting cvell you seem to be verry miss informed. The amoount of range you need for cvell is arguably more like 10m range and even then you are not 1 shotting. Actually on youtube in order to 1shot Slade has around 50m range so thats alittle more than 2m.

    Alright lets see...
    According to this post on r/MapleStory:
    ZomgNit:
    As a result of this correction, this nerf actually brings Hayato much more in line with other classes. After factoring in the nerf and the 100% final dmg from the Beyond skill, Hayato would be approximately 61.5% as strong as he is right now, meaning he would remain about 1.2x stronger than most other classes (as opposed to 2x+)

    and this one on r/MapleStory:
    DeathOFKing:
    Those DEF potentials made something that was already too strong, into something even stronger. You gain DEF as you gain str, dex, luk, int . If you just factor in Str alone, your DEF is 1.2x your STR plus any defence from your gear. If you presume a 40k str Hayato who has no DEF potential gear, they already have around 48k DEF (lets round to 50k since I still havent factored in DEF from equips). Thats a 250% Final Damage Boost, which is still over 2x stronger than any comparable top tier class. Then you add the beyond skill on top. (remember final damage boost is multiplicative with other sources of final damage boost). Meaning you as a Beyond Hayato are miles ahead before even factoring in %DEF Potentials. The gap between a %DEF optimised Hayato would be double that. The rankings were essentially.

    1. Hayato with 100% or more DEF potentials. (missing 10-12 lines of % str)
    2. Hayato with Pure STR potential
    3. Everyone Else

    From what I'm seeing Hayatos are currently 2x more powerful than most classes. Following the fix/nerf/whatever-you-may-call-it they will still be 1.2x stronger than most other classes. It's not a nerf by 10x which many of us (including me) assumed wrong in the first place.

    This mean they will only lose 2/5ths of their damage when the Override Patch hits.

    At the worst, end-game Hayatos will lose a big advantage in range due to an unaccounted factor that was introduced in the V Patch as many have said. The increase in defense from 9,999 -> 99,999 was not intended by the developers of Shimada Heart. This was said in both cases of CMS Patch Notes, and the recent GMS live-steam on June 16th, 2017.

    It's unfortunate for those who cubed for DEF% or chose to main Hayato due to being one of the top of the damage list at that point, but unfortunately that's what happens on a bandwagon. For those who had a Hayato main before V Patch this should of been seen miles away, 9,999 to 99,999 is a huge difference. STR already boosts defense to begin with (and practically every other stat in the game too) so that should've been a giant indicator even though it passed through in the beginning.

    Following the Override Patch they gain another 5th Job Skill Iaijutsu Phantom Blade that at Level 25: Consumes 200 Blade Force. Final damage +20% for 30 sec per stack (up to 5 stacks I assume).
    DeathOFKing:
    The problem is, they ARENT GOING TO BE TOO WEAK compared to other classes. They go from being the uncontested top to being the top.

    So what's the counter-argument to reconsider Shimada Heart? It can't be DEF% being useless because most classes only have one primary stat % line they can roll for.

    You're last argument is like saying hey xenons no instead of different stats you just need luk GG. First off if you cubed only %def to 100k you'll half to reroll everything and possible lose up to 400% dmg. Second if you cubed Str then you're losing up to 200% dmg just from flat gear and passives. 100% doesn't make up for that especially when it requires maxed lvl 5th job skills to do so which unless you are hacking would take a long long time. But this means they do benefit at all from the new update, but rather you will see most hayatos lose out on money and damage. Even the lower ones as most people have over 10k defence since that is such a low cap.

    I'm not saying it's fair now and that 99k defence is a good cap. What I'm saying is theyre hyping hayato when in reality every hayato is losing out since theyre not choosing a reasonable cap.
  • SorrowSorrow
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    edited June 2017
    Hayato was overpowered. There's nothing to argue about, and this rebalance is fair. If anything they should've nerfed them slightly more.
  • Its2Sharp4UIts2Sharp4U
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    edited June 2017
    So what's the counter-argument to reconsider Shimada Heart? It can't be DEF% being useless because most classes only have one primary stat % line they can roll for.

    You're last argument is like saying hey xenons no instead of different stats you just need luk GG. First off if you cubed only %def to 100k you'll half to reroll everything and possible lose up to 400% dmg. Second if you cubed Str then you're losing up to 200% dmg just from flat gear and passives. 100% doesn't make up for that especially when it requires maxed lvl 5th job skills to do so which unless you are hacking would take a long long time. But this means they do benefit at all from the new update, but rather you will see most hayatos lose out on money and damage. Even the lower ones as most people have over 10k defence since that is such a low cap.

    I'm not saying it's fair now and that 99k defence is a good cap. What I'm saying is theyre hyping hayato when in reality every hayato is losing out since theyre not choosing a reasonable cap.

    You're twisting my words due to your lack of reading comprehension.

    I said most because of Xenon, and your analogy is off. Despite its name, Xenon's main stat is All Stat that exists to be aimed by the creators of KMS. Lets say we compare between a single stat for Xenon vs an all stat boost. 6% All Stat is about equal as 18% in a single stat in the most simplest terms. If STR was increased there will be no added benefit of it going towards LUK or DEX and vice versa. Funds for Xenon need to be massive before he can be even considered "good".

    However in terms of Hayato, STR gives an added benefit to defense, because that's just how it works. DEF% wasn't meant to be a stat to go in for rolling, Shimada Heart was just an extra damage gimmick that again was never intended to pass the 9,999 limit.

    Lets take Shadowers for instance. Just because STR raises damage for them unlike most other thieves (Xenon is an exception) doesn't mean they should roll for STR %.

    Let's make up something that doesn't exist. If thieves were to somehow naturally gain attack from avoid stat which is raised by LUK it doesn't mean that people should be rolling for avoid %.

    5th Job also isn't meant to be maxed out within a week or a month. We're just about to get a 4th area and KMS is about to get their 5th area. It's suppose to be a slow constant increase in damage overtime for players to continuously and gradually grow.
    DeathOFKing:
    The problem is, they ARENT GOING TO BE TOO WEAK compared to other classes. They go from being the uncontested top to being the top.

    Hayatos still have incredible damage potential and a fun playstyle. As I've said before, Hayatos will still be 1.2x stronger than most classes after the nerf.

    So far, you're the sole person in this thread who thinks this nerf is unfair.

    The very fact that you attempted to undermine my comment immaturely, you've failed to convince me that the cap should be reconsidered for Shimada Heart.
  • HeinekenHeroHeinekenHero
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    edited June 2017
    The fact that your reply is geared to trying to make me sound immature and ignorant isn't a good way to debate. Means all credit to what you are saying is for the sole person of your ego and not the thread. The thread was to acknowledge that the nerf in no way improve hayato despite what the stream and site say, The overall benefit of the update is negative and no matter how you address it remains that way for hayato. It's not even a nerf per say but a fix on shamadas heart. And it does affect nearly every hayato play expescially funded ones who lose a lot of money. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't make me stupid or as you say lack reading comprehension.
  • Its2Sharp4UIts2Sharp4U
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    edited June 2017
    The fact that your reply is geared to trying to make me sound immature and ignorant isn't a good way to debate. Means all credit to what you are saying is for the sole person of your ego and not the thread. The thread was to acknowledge that the nerf in no way improve hayato despite what the stream and site say, The overall benefit of the update is negative and no matter how you address it remains that way for hayato. It's not even a nerf per say but a fix on shamadas heart. And it does affect nearly every hayato play expescially funded ones who lose a lot of money. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't make me stupid or as you say lack reading comprehension.
    I would have let you got away with misreading between the lines, but the sole fact that you used "GG" at the end of the first sentence sealed the fate between the debate between you and me.

    Since you haven't introduced anything new, I'll say this again. This fix puts Hayatos at 1.2x stronger than most classes. Of course they'll lose out in damage because they are 2x+ stronger then most classes until Override. You're suggesting to raise beyond what the bug fix did claiming that it wasn't an unfair cap to begin with.

    The more I continue to post, the more repetitive it gets. There's absolutely no compromise at this point if nothing new is introduced.


    EDIT: A bit off-topic but don't mis-quote me for your own words. I don't want a reply where it wasn't my words to begin with.
  • koppelo1koppelo1
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    edited June 2017
    The fact that your reply is geared to trying to make me sound immature and ignorant isn't a good way to debate. Means all credit to what you are saying is for the sole person of your ego and not the thread. The thread was to acknowledge that the nerf in no way improve hayato despite what the stream and site say, The overall benefit of the update is negative and no matter how you address it remains that way for hayato. It's not even a nerf per say but a fix on shamadas heart. And it does affect nearly every hayato play expescially funded ones who lose a lot of money. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't make me stupid or as you say lack reading comprehension.

    Yes i agree that in overall it's really bad for hayatos. But looking at the big picture, shimada is so broken.Fixing it to make hayato more balanced compared to other classes is just fair. In terms of losing mesos, it's not really that much. You hit 99k def with def% nebulites and like 2 or 3 equip with def% lines on. Those nebulites are cheap and rerolling lines on those few equips aint that bad either. With that said, i think bandwagoners are the ones getting the hardest hit.