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The state of Kishin; Post your Suggestions here

xMrMeowxMrMeow
Reactions: 1,135
Posts: 44
Member, Private Tester
edited November 2018 in Suggestions, Feedback, and Requests
So I'm just gunna start this off by pulling a few quotes from our friendly Overlord of Nexon America so everyone is clear that Kishin will be changed and why:
Because the Kishin skill allows maps to have more monsters and increases the rate at which they reappear after being defeated, and because of the sheer amount of players in the game using this skill at the same time, this causes a lot of technical issues that are difficult to solve. As I mentioned, we have done a lot to try to mitigate the lag, but we ultimately came to the conclusion that Kishin’s ability to increase monster spawn rate needed to be reduced to provide a smoother experience for all players.

We started to accelerate these discussions so that we could make changes before our upcoming Black Mage update patches. Our proposals included ways to reduce Kishin’s ability while providing bonuses to things like drop rate and EXP, so that we could ensure these changes didn’t impact the skill’s overall purpose and effectiveness
...we also understand the overall concerns about Kishin and how players feel that it is necessary to have a Kanna mule or a secondary PC just to be able to progress at a reasonable rate in the game
...18.55% of the unique non-banned characters who have logged into the game since June 1st, 2018 were Kanna classes. We agree that this creates an unhealthy game environment for our players, so we will be taking a hard look at these concerns and gathering as much data as we can and we will use this information as we decide how to move forward with Kanna

TL;DR:
Increasing spawn rate and count of mobs causes lag, most players feel the need to have Kish mules to progress at a good speed, and a lot of new unique characters made these days are just Kannas (most likely either Kish mules or Meso farming chars on Reboot).


Now then
Here are my ideas for solutions to the lag problem:
1: (Best at solving lag) Make Kishin increase base drop rate and XP of enemies (so it stacks multiplicatively with all sources of drop and xp boosts to make it function as similar as possible to the end result of current Kishin). Since Kishin increases spawn rate and count so much, this would have to be legit like +100% or more to base drop and xp rates of mobs otherwise it'd essentially be a nerf (ye, Kishin is that currently that strong).
2. (Good, but not perfect) Reduce spawn rate and boosted spawn count, but increase XP and drop rate to compensate.

Solution to people feeling like they need a Kishin Mule to get farm XP and Drops at a reasonable rate:
-Make Kishin a Link Skill. Duration scales with Kanna lv (70/120/210), and obviously do one of the lag solutions otherwise you'll kill the servers due to everyone now having kishin.

Solution that would cover both:
- Boost XP and Drop for all of GMS by like 2x across the board, and make Kishin just an ordinary summon for damage.




RadiantSightMorningAfterSeven

Comments

  • AstersAsters
    Reactions: 975
    Posts: 56
    Member
    edited November 2018
    mobs should have their own increased 2x drop and exp .

    the amount of mobs doesn't not affect the servers in my opinion, no one that i know said they lag or dc more when they are around kishin?

    it's the amount of active players. affect server stability .

    total removal of kishin should happen simultaneously with Frenzy removal or it would be monopoly .
  • xMrMeowxMrMeow
    Reactions: 1,135
    Posts: 44
    Member, Private Tester
    edited November 2018
    I personally think 2X xp and drop across the board for all mobs is the best option since they've specifically said "Kishin causes lag on our servers".

    Replacing Kishins spawn rate with xp and drop still has the same issue of GMS players not liking Maplestory's grind as much as KMS players and feeling like Kishin balances this out (a lot of players heavily prefer the game with a Kishin mule, especially for leveling side characters for legion), and making it a link skill would be kinda awkward (link skill that just give 100% xp and drop... then it's like a core link skill that everyone has to use)
  • FuhreakFuhreak
    Reactions: 6,820
    Posts: 1,280
    Member, Private Tester
    edited November 2018
    While I don't agree with a 2x rate, (I personally never needed it, I think it would feel too much like a private server.) that may be the best replacement for kishin.
    A link skill may be a better alternative, but it still requires players to make... well... a Kanna... Thus the overreliance continues.
    It is my opinion that Nexon should have never allowed for spawn boosters, as people think they need them now. That the game is slow without them.
    As someone who played heavily without them, when I did actually get the chance to use them, it felt... too easy. (Mind you I only play a few hours each day.)
    If we're really going down the KMS warpath (a 1:1 copy, or close to it.) Nexon needs to be absolutely sure they have the player base who supports this idea.
    Doing that is going to piss off a lot of players, something that even a supporter of the idea, does not want to see.
    I think a better method is to improve the quality of life of the game, so that BOTH regions are happy.
  • thrakkesthrakkes
    Reactions: 2,015
    Posts: 359
    Member
    edited November 2018
    No idea why, but no one mentioned adding cooldown on Kishin, to avoid mass spamming Kishin. Do you guys think that botters can 100% chance to bypass cooldown? And if Nexon decides to give new Kishin more EXP bonus instead of respawn time decrease, then EXP bonus should stack multiplicatively with base exp and cards/coupons.
  • DiximaNDiximaN
    Reactions: 1,190
    Posts: 94
    Member
    edited November 2018
    First of all: Kanna should be excluded from Tera Burning to avoid the class being exploited by botters
  • FuhreakFuhreak
    Reactions: 6,820
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    edited November 2018
    DiximaN wrote: »
    First of all: Kanna should be excluded from Tera Burning to avoid the class being exploited by botters

    I'm against punishing players for the behavior of hackers. I don't think Nexon should do that.
    What if someone was actually wanting to make a Kanna for Tera burning?
    thrakkes wrote: »
    No idea why, but no one mentioned adding cooldown on Kishin, to avoid mass spamming Kishin. Do you guys think that botters can 100% chance to bypass cooldown? And if Nexon decides to give new Kishin more EXP bonus instead of respawn time decrease, then EXP bonus should stack multiplicatively with base exp and cards/coupons.

    Whatever Nexon does do, they need to make sure the class actually requires a player behind the wheel to make the Kanna useful for the party.
    Kishin should be useful, but not required. Like Holy Symbol, it should be nice, but not THAT nice.
    Holy Symbol can be easily outdone by EXP coupons, 2x Event, Burning Zones, etc.
    Nothing has the sheer power of Kishin, other than an extremely pay to win Frenzy Totem. (Which should be removed with Kishin imo, no double standards please.)
  • DiximaNDiximaN
    Reactions: 1,190
    Posts: 94
    Member
    edited November 2018
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    DiximaN wrote: »
    First of all: Kanna should be excluded from Tera Burning to avoid the class being exploited by botters

    I'm against punishing players for the behavior of hackers. I don't think Nexon should do that.
    What if someone was actually wanting to make a Kanna for Tera burning?

    I'm against that too, tbh I'm against nerfing Kishin at all as long as Nexon's gold mine Frenzy Totem still exists, but there is no other option. With the situation now, servers are gonna be flooded more than ever, this time with tera-burned Kannas. Events like this are like zillion kilogram of gold to hackers (as evidence - you still see tons of non legit Kannas with the Frozen set) . So doing such as thing is very necessary in my opinion
  • FuhreakFuhreak
    Reactions: 6,820
    Posts: 1,280
    Member, Private Tester
    edited November 2018
    DiximaN wrote: »
    I'm against that too, tbh I'm against nerfing Kishin at all as long as Nexon's gold mine Frenzy Totem still exists, but there is no other option. With the situation now, servers are gonna be flooded more than ever, this time with tera-burned Kannas. Events like this are like zillion kilogram of gold to hackers (as evidence - you still see tons of non legit Kannas with the Frozen set) . So doing such as thing is very necessary in my opinion

    You're most likely right, as Nexon said it didn't plan on making the change soon, I doubt they'll change it before Tera Burn.
    If they're not going to disable the spawn rate effect on Kishin, blocking Kannas in general is the next best thing.
    A move I'm sad to see them have to do, but at this point they've backed themselves into a corner.
  • thrakkesthrakkes
    Reactions: 2,015
    Posts: 359
    Member
    edited November 2018
    Now that I just think of it, I just read blocking Kanna. Why don't we just make the class available occasionnally like Beast Tamer? o-0 Even Zero.
    RadiantSight
  • RadiantSightRadiantSight
    Reactions: 1,025
    Posts: 50
    Member
    edited November 2018
    The difference between having kishin/frenzy active versus not having it active is too much.
    For reference, the time it takes for most maps to check for dead enemies before it spawns monsters is 6 seconds. Kishin reduces the check timer to 2000ms or 2 seconds and adds +50% mob count into the map while Frenzy reduces it the check timer to 2000ms or 2 seconds and adds +100% mob count into the map.

    The problem is if Nexon wanted to go with what they said in the memo and compensate it with EXP/drop, it would have to be approximately +300% more EXP and drop rate to compensate If Kishin/frenzy was planned to be removed without angering more than half of the community which would be out of Nexon's standards.

    My thoughts about balancing kishin/frenzy is kind of like what the topic starter said except with different values.
    My ideas were:

    -Normal time to check for dead enemies before it spawns monsters would stay at 6 seconds because this is out of Nexon(non-KMS)'s control.
    -Kishin's check timer reduced from 2000ms to 1500ms and the extra mob count from +50% to 0 (Remove value)
    -Frenzy's check timer reduced from 2000ms to 1000ms with the extra mob count value down from +100% to 0. Add +20% passive EXP bonus or make it part of the Monolith skill.
    -Kanna's link skill at max level 2; Along with the permanent damage % increase, add +10% more EXP and +10% Drop rate which does not count to the potential drop rate limit.

    -Add a V matrix skill that functions like a weaker kishin that reduces the mob check timer to 2000ms at all levels and passively increases EXP by +15%, drop rate by +15%, and meso rates by +30% that lasts for 270 seconds with a 180 second cooldown at level 30. This skill does not do damage.


    Maybe removing a function while compensating it with decreased checking time and some EXP/drop buff on a link skill would at least make servers slightly more manageable and provide a compromise between current kishin and future kishin. Frenzy would still look more powerful and richer compared to kishin.
    A weaker Kishin skill in V matrix would at least bridge the gap between not using spawn boosters and using one as well as rewarding players who level continue to level up for normal/reboot players.


    Short summary:

    -Kishin's mob check timer reduced from 2000ms to 1500ms and the extra mob count removed
    -Frenzy's mob check timer reduced from 2000ms to 1000ms with the extra mob count value removed. Add large EXP/drop bonus of some sort to make up for some loss.

    -Add a V matrix skill that functions like a weaker kishin that reduces the mob check timer to 2000ms at all levels and passively increases EXP by +15%, drop rate by +15%, and meso rates by +30% that lasts for 270 seconds with a 180 second cooldown at level 30 that does no damage.
  • LyedenLyeden
    Reactions: 1,510
    Posts: 61
    Member
    edited November 2018
    A link skill for it would be nice.
  • pepepepe
    Reactions: 2,125
    Posts: 161
    Member
    edited November 2018
    Spawn modifiers should have never been introduced to this game. Both Kishin and Frenzy have created far more problems than it has solved. People can't even let the former go without the latter going as well. This is how dependant we have become on spawn modifiers and the kanna class.

    Kishin is the opium of the maple world.
    FuhreakLyedenShadEight