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  • DaxterbeerDaxterbeer
    Reactions: 7,470
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    edited November 2
    I have no idea where how this thread went from complaining about the show/venue, wishing for GMS features to suddenly complaining about supports not be strong enough when you are trying to encourage parties that don't have to worry about the meta.
    People like playing certain classes, being forced to play a class you don't want to play just to have an "easier" time bossing would kill the game. Supports allow players to still play the class they like and able to do bosses because they either never had hands to begin with or getting older and are less mechanically able than what they used to have.
    let players have fun with the game and have whatever party composition they like to clear current end game bosses.

    I have no clue whether your pushing for supports or remove the worries of not having a support since these make no sense at all.
    Yes. You get this by making it so that supports are no longer mandatory. You get that by nerfing supports and adding the damage back to every single class in the game.
    You do not get this by buffing supports.

    Yes. There is also the alternative or the addition of giving other classes other utility in their kits to provide more survivablity aside from damage because Bishop offers things such as a Holy Shell, Heal etc. The utility gained from this could be passive or active party buffs so that everyone can contribute to the party with additional damage or buffs. At the same time, Bishop who is considered pretty low on the DPS chart can also receive boosts to her own skills so she can be a regular class. There really should not be any support class and just have all classes provide a feature to the battle that help themselves and their party members.
  • StaconaStacona
    Reactions: 2,035
    Posts: 457
    Member
    edited November 2
    Fuhreak wrote: »

    i said healing, not support skills

    .......................

    ......promotes the social aspect to an online game and it is not forced. Forced gameplay is if they made it impossible to clear without a support, optional gameplay is when it is able to clear with or without a support, but the support makes it "easier" to survive the boss fight.

    It literally only opens more people to be able to do content WITHOUT sacrificing current play patterns.

    Ideally, you want half the classes to be support classes that are varied in playstyles and what they offer for the party in a truly meaningful way, not this state where they are so weak that Mercedes is considered a support with 3 debuffs. The other half will be damage classes, some of which can have some party utility or buffs, but nothing substantial.

    This blend will make it both easier to find a good party composition, especially when the player base is very thin in end game, while opening up a lot more classes to be viable or even replace current perceived top meta picks without the need to nerf those classes.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
    Reactions: 7,680
    Posts: 1,631
    Member, Private Tester
    edited November 2
    Stacona wrote: »
    Fuhreak wrote: »

    i said healing, not support skills

    Healing skills work (on others) in every phase except phase 4.
    You can also heal in every phase (personal).
    You are still wrong.
  • StaconaStacona
    Reactions: 2,035
    Posts: 457
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    edited November 2
    Fuhreak wrote: »

    ????????

    Phase 1-3 does not prevent someone dying out of black mage, ghost state prevents that and having hard carries strong enough. You need to introduce an entirely new utility type of skill that can restore life count for party members for this.

    Phase 4 is when healing is the most relevant, but support skills for others does not work here.

    I was never wrong about anything, you are interpreting things into something that was never said or implied.


    1. Losing lives without dying is a stupid mechanic. Needs to go. This causes nothing, but stress and fake-PTSD, Black Mage ruined me when Extreme Lotus came out until I learned that New Lotus is done fairly and I don't die out without actually dying just because I get hit by a few attacks.

    2. Losing double lives is also stupid.

    Both of these are unintuitive and should just never be a thing, just let the lives mean exactly what they should. Reduce live count to 10 if you need to, at least that way it is intuitive design on the player to know exactly why they keep dying out of the fight.

    The problem is that they have bullet hell the whole fight with an unintuitive mechanic of losing lives and more lives than you should. While ironically phase 4 is the most bullet hell and has the least of this problem because you only lose lives if you actually die because of the shield mechanic. Which the shield mechanic is not intuitive either since why do you need to learn of an entirely new mechanic for the 4th and final phase of a boss fight that does not use it at all previously?


    Definition of a bullet hell is when you have multiple projectiles and/or objects that you need to dodge.
    It has nothing to do with patterns, but even if that is the case how are you dodge the bullets in phase 4 black mage? You are both tanking half of them and the other half go right through you and do nothing.
  • StaconaStacona
    Reactions: 2,035
    Posts: 457
    Member
    edited November 2
    Daxterbeer wrote: »

    Freedom of choice.

    Bringing up supports to a place where they can properly do their job.

    Having more variety of supports.

    All of this can exist at once, most people will opted for an easier experience, but nothing should be forced on the player regardless. So you make bosses doable with no support, but supports should be properly scaled up to be strong to do their job properly, which results in partying with a support(s) will make the bosses easier, but nothing you need to do in order to clear the content.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited November 2
    Stacona wrote: »
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Phase 4 is when healing is the most relevant, but support skills for others does not work here.

    I was never wrong about anything, you are interpreting things into something that was never said or implied.
    Healing only does anything for phase 4 black mage.
    You implied it here, if I misinterpreted something it is because your message was vague, but implied that either 1. Healing only works or matters in P4 (wrong) 2. Healing support only works in P4 (wrong)
    P4 is where healing matters the least actually because it's one of the easier phases.
    Definition of a bullet hell is when you have multiple projectiles and/or objects that you need to dodge.
    It has nothing to do with patterns, but even if that is the case how are you dodge the bullets in phase 4 black mage? You are both tanking half of them and the other half go right through you and do nothing

    That is not the definition of a bullet hell. Otherwise all shoot'em ups would be bullet hells, which they are not. Bullet hell is a very specific type of shooter where dodging is more centric to the theme of the game, one that is made possible by bullet patterns. I am sorry if you do not have the skill to dodge in P4, but it is very possible and actually not hard at all for certain classes. Others require a bit more skill but it is still possible to play P4 without being hit.
    This sounds like a "git gud" issue on your part.

    It is obvious we are not going to agree nor are you going to have good faith arguments, so once again I will be exiting this thread.
    Please learn to listen to people and be more clear with your posting in the future.
  • StaconaStacona
    Reactions: 2,035
    Posts: 457
    Member
    edited November 2
    Fuhreak wrote: »

    Those are bullet hells, I think you are thinking of beat 'em ups like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles for the Arcade / SNES. And to some degree, yes they are still bullet hells.

    MapleStory is not dark souls nor should it be, if anything it is most similar to Megaman X these days, to some degree modern maple bosses have a similar feel to megaman x design bosses - new Lotus probably resembles this the most.

    We do agree though, you just want people to only play exactly how you play the game. I want to open the game up to more play styles while keeping the style that you enjoy.


    Explain why you think something is right or wrong than just saying something is right or wrong.

    Phase 4 is the hardest phase, it is just perceived the easiest because you lose lives normally with the gimmicky stuff removed from the fight by that point. I just spam skill healing to survive phase 4, r.i.p. cat mode heals and cat tree.
    Easiest to not die out I guess if that is the metric we are going by, rest of the phases you can die out by curse which makes healing almost useless.

    The rest of the fight was only somewhat enjoyable when i was able to do it in hawk mode since it felt more skill based and less frustrating. The boss needs to get completely overhauled the same way they overhauled Lotus. I criticized old Lotus just as much and guess what? They did a full rework for the entire boss fight into an entirely new fight and he is significantly better for it.