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Remove BlackCipher please

advancedipadvancedip
Reactions: 235
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edited February 2020 in General Chat
Obviously Black Cipher cannot detect hackers.
There are hackers in MuLung, Ariant, and much more popular training spots.
The only way you can stop hackers is having active Game masters
How do I become a game master?
I will help you eliminate all the hackers for free with no cost.
WONDERGUY

Comments

  • WONDERGUYWONDERGUY
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    edited February 2020
    nah we got great autoban system jUsT gEt GuD
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited February 2020
    There's a lot more to a GM than just banning hackers. It's something you'd have to move to Nexon's location for.
    Not only this, most hackers are banned via auto-detect methods. Humans are much slower at banning than AI is.
    If you were to do anything related to banning you would probably just be teaching the AI how to catch people it hadn't already caught.
    I doubt you'd ever personally ban anyone and the reverse would actually be the case, you'd be unbanning people that the AI false flagged if you could prove it was a false flag.

    GMs these days don't really play games and go around patrolling for hackers.
    They're mostly there for events, answering questions, looking into issues, etc.
    Active GMs in the game will do almost nothing to cut down on hackers.
    Every single server has 20 channels. We have 7 servers counting the two EU ones.
    This means for EVERY single map in the game they have to check 140 versions of it.
    A single map chain is thousands of maps they have to check.

    Nexon is banning tens of thousands of hackers per week and sometimes over one hundred thousand.
    There's no way a group of humans could hope to match that.
    Black Cipher needs to be improved, not removed.
    Removing it would just allow anyone to hack because they no longer have to get tools to bypass hack protection.
    AggraphineKevinZamoradarikKrystal97
  • WONDERGUYWONDERGUY
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    edited February 2020
    yea make sense its better to have this AB system that ruins few legit players reputation and their will to keep play after devastating unban process
    instead of going after few high profile hackers/cheaters with proper GM team

    hackers are going to come back they dont mind geting few small acc banned
    legit false ban players wont come back/or see maplestory same even if nexonNA did offer some compesation it will be questnable still

    but whatever it makes server bars full and its better marketing numbers,even go that far and just offrank cheaters because of x beneficial status so i guess its ok as it is?
  • AggraphineAggraphine
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    edited February 2020
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    few legit players

    And that right there is why it's working fine as is. A <1% margin of error is well within acceptable bounds for something at production scale. People like you are so laser-focused on the probably ten or so legit players banned in error every month or so that you're blind to the tens of thousands of justified bans the system hands out.

    No one's gonna like how this sounds, but the number of actual players who are erroneously bopped by the system are statistically insignificant in the bigger picture. Even if a hundred legit players were banned in a week, that would still be less than 1% of all bans handed out by the system this week alone. And if a hundred legit players were ending up banned every single week, we'd hear about it.

    Fact of the matter is, you're looking at probably 20 or so errors in a three-month period on average. Just look at ban data threads, it's utter absurdity to claim the system does not work.

    Footnote: I'll say it again for you and everyone else. All given figures in my post for players banned are estimates, approximations, guesses. The only info I have is what's posted in the announcements section(linked above), everything else is a best-guess based on how frequently or infrequently I happen across reddit or forum posts regarding banwaves.
    Fuhreak
  • WONDERGUYWONDERGUY
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    edited February 2020
    as can be seen by the names just for reference
    10-140k ~ bans of such accounts each week in a 5k~ playerbase
    they dont care about the ban when they allready transfer the goods to "legit char" they are just burner accounts or whatever they name it
    sure it cleans good chunk of "hackers" but more like only on paper
    just like the operation was successful, but the patient died
    falsely strikeing legit players so often in allready small player base its not just margin of error that just we can go with it

    GM's and GM team is needed big time to help cut those ilegal trades that land in "legal chars"
    therefore hacking will become harder and less wanted (a better step for less hackers)
    tickets will also become less of a meme
    no one care how many acc/chars such as lokeqi2865ffe9iub3268dw890oplqawe got ban as much as how many actual players got stop/ban ingame because of breaking the rules

    KevinZamora
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited February 2020
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    as can be seen by the names just for reference
    70-140k ~ bans of such accounts each week in a 5k~ playerbase
    they dont care about the ban when they allready transfer the goods to "legit char" they are just burner accounts or whatever they name it
    sure it cleans good chunk of "hackers" but more like only on paper
    just like the operation was successful, but the patient died
    falsely strikeing legit players so often in allready small player base its not just margin of error that just we can go with it

    GM's and GM team is needed big time to help cut those ilegal trades that land in "legal chars"
    therefore hacking will become harder and less wanted (a better step for less hackers)
    tickets will also become less of a meme
    no one care how many acc/chars such as lokeqi2865ffe9iub3268dw890oplqawe got ban as much as how many actual hackers got stop/ban ingame

    An active GM will still be subpar in this when compared to an AI. You're asking a human to look through data involving trades with hackers and determine which of those trades were with legit players and another hacker or "main" of the hacker.
    Once again, AI can easily crunch data like this and decide if someone needs to be banned or not. The margin of error that happens with legit players is because sometimes hackers do things that look legit and fishy at the same time.
    The AI then learns that this is something that hackers do, and it issues out a ban for legit players doing the same thing.

    GMs need to investigate these false bans so they can tell the AI that it was a false ban, which the AI then learns from causing less false bans in the future.
    The problem is that hackers and legit players alike come crying to the GMs about false bans, meaning they're overwhelmed by tickets.
    It becomes easier to just trust that the AI knows what it's doing unless the margin of error becomes noticeable.
    Such as the case with some recent false ban waves like Kanna and runes. They look into stuff it the AI starts creating too many false bans.

    Regardless of opinion, the system works on the overall and moving forward the AI and the anti-hack both need to be improved, not removed.
    If you really want to see this game enter a nightmare death spiral, removing either of these two things would probably kill the game almost instantly.
    Or we would at least go back to the "glory days" where everyone had to deal with hackers on just about every map in the game.
    Anyone else remember the item vac hackers that would float about town and just steal items people were dumb enough to drop?
  • WONDERGUYWONDERGUY
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    edited February 2020
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    the problem of that dream Ai its that AI is just guide-ruler for hackers to know how to act on and adjust their hacks
    90% of the acc in the ban data are just there for one use and their bans dosnt matter that much like i said
    their goods and final end customers matter more (they cant remake the "end game" acc as much as keqi2865ffe9iub3268dw890op
    GMs/GM team can monitor 5k player behaviour eazy with that AI and help instead of leting it run and make final decision by itself

    i dont belive tickets are overwhelmed by requests am pretty sure they can filter out/put on hold new/recently made acc and other "bad" key points from the ticket system and put actual accounts on higher priority


  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited February 2020
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    the problem of that dream Ai its that AI is just guide-ruler for hackers to know how to act on and adjust their hacks
    GMs/GM team can monitor 5k player behaviour eazy with that AI and help instead of leting it run and make final decision by itself

    i dont belive tickets are overwhelmed by requests am pretty sure they can filter out/put on hold new/recently made acc and other "bad" key points from the ticket system and put actual accounts on higher priority

    100k players per week is still a lot of bans for GMS to handle even if the AI is flagging them.
    The problem lies in that if the AI is right almost 100% of the time, why even bother checking the work?
    It's easier to let it false ban someone and let them claim it was a false ban then just look into that one case vs the 100k cases.
    AI isn't a set in stone thing. As hackers adjust hacks, the AI will learn about the new hacks as well.
    It creates a constant uphill battle for hackers to deal with.



    To put it in layman's terms, the GMs tell the AI "This is a hacker, you want to ban these. This is a legit player, you don't want to ban these."
    Once the AI knows what the goal is, it tries to correctly flag hackers while leaving legit players alone.
    Once the AI gets to a point where it's right almost every single time, why even check the work? Just let it do its own thing.
    The problem is that every time a new hack comes out, this process has to repeat.
    The AI will catch some of the new hack methods because hackers will act similar to the old methods.
    But these new hackers will slightly muddy the way the AI sees hackers, which will cause more false bans.
    The GM on staff should check in on the AI every once in awhile, but again, after a certain point, there's almost no need to check the AI's work.
  • WONDERGUYWONDERGUY
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    edited February 2020
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    ehh all this wont change anything in nexonNA any time soon but yea anyway

    its not 100k players but accs by few users who use those to fund their "legit" accs or sell the goods to other
    also AI to combat hackers its just a dream its not same as learning how to finish x task
    both side works how to outsmart eachother

    if nexon makes that dream Ai that learns how to catch hacker/rule breaker
    rule breaks/hackers makes same kind of "ai" to learn fast how to avoid such flags

    so it will be endless AI war loop that catch so many wrongly each time it gets "updated"
    just like your video example the guy is "hacking" lets the AI beat the game perfectly without touching the keyboard/be near it
    how are you going to stop that and make legit speed runers with just Ai?


    all GM's/GM team can do its make that task of hacking/rule breaking harder and less pleasant
    just like in KMS there is hackers too but not as much as in GMS
    there will be hackers allways the point its to clean the damage from the hackers as much as possible but not hurt actual players
    once their "mains legit" acc gets ban and all the work wasted there wont be so many hackers doing it or trying to do so

  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited February 2020
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    ehh all this wont change anything in nexonNA any time soon but yea anyway

    its not 100k players but accs by few users who use those to fund their "legit" accs or sell the goods to other
    also AI to combat hackers its just a dream its not same as learning how to finish x task
    both side works how to outsmart eachother

    if nexon makes that dream Ai that learns how to catch hacker/rule breaker
    rule breaks/hackers makes same kind of "ai" to learn fast how to avoid such flags

    so it will be endless AI war loop that catch so many wrongly each time it gets "updated"
    just like your video example the guy is "hacking" lets the AI beat the game perfectly without touching the keyboard/be near it
    how are you going to stop that and make legit speed runers with just Ai?


    all GM's/GM team can do its make that task of hacking/rule breaking harder and less pleasant
    just like in KMS there is hackers too but not as much as in GMS
    there will be hackers allways the point its to clean the damage from the hackers as much as possible but not hurt actual players
    once their "mains legit" acc gets ban and all the work wasted there wont be so many hackers doing it or trying to do so

    The problem is that humans can't combat that AI as well as other AI would be able to.
    So if the hackers are using AI to avoid bans, then you need AI to combat their AI.
    The best way to prevent hackers is to make it not worth their time. An aggressive AI helps with that, but it only stops them in one spot.
    Account creation should be made harder for hackers as another step. You'll always have hackers within games, you'll always have false ban within games.
    You should work to minimize both of these aspects and honestly given the number of bans Nexon does, I think they've got a nice balance going on.
    WONDERGUY
  • AllowedAllowed
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    edited February 2020
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    There's a lot more to a GM than just banning hackers. It's something you'd have to move to Nexon's location for.
    Not only this, most hackers are banned via auto-detect methods. Humans are much slower at banning than AI is.
    If you were to do anything related to banning you would probably just be teaching the AI how to catch people it hadn't already caught.
    I doubt you'd ever personally ban anyone and the reverse would actually be the case, you'd be unbanning people that the AI false flagged if you could prove it was a false flag.

    GMs these days don't really play games and go around patrolling for hackers.
    They're mostly there for events, answering questions, looking into issues, etc.
    Active GMs in the game will do almost nothing to cut down on hackers.
    Every single server has 20 channels. We have 7 servers counting the two EU ones.
    This means for EVERY single map in the game they have to check 140 versions of it.
    A single map chain is thousands of maps they have to check.

    Nexon is banning tens of thousands of hackers per week and sometimes over one hundred thousand.
    There's no way a group of humans could hope to match that.
    Black Cipher needs to be improved, not removed.
    Removing it would just allow anyone to hack because they no longer have to get tools to bypass hack protection.

    Meh, Nexon Europe used to have home GMS aka people that worked from home for nexon.
  • AggraphineAggraphine
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    edited February 2020
    Allowed wrote: »
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    There's a lot more to a GM than just banning hackers. It's something you'd have to move to Nexon's location for.
    Not only this, most hackers are banned via auto-detect methods. Humans are much slower at banning than AI is.
    If you were to do anything related to banning you would probably just be teaching the AI how to catch people it hadn't already caught.
    I doubt you'd ever personally ban anyone and the reverse would actually be the case, you'd be unbanning people that the AI false flagged if you could prove it was a false flag.

    GMs these days don't really play games and go around patrolling for hackers.
    They're mostly there for events, answering questions, looking into issues, etc.
    Active GMs in the game will do almost nothing to cut down on hackers.
    Every single server has 20 channels. We have 7 servers counting the two EU ones.
    This means for EVERY single map in the game they have to check 140 versions of it.
    A single map chain is thousands of maps they have to check.

    Nexon is banning tens of thousands of hackers per week and sometimes over one hundred thousand.
    There's no way a group of humans could hope to match that.
    Black Cipher needs to be improved, not removed.
    Removing it would just allow anyone to hack because they no longer have to get tools to bypass hack protection.

    Meh, Nexon Europe used to have home GMS aka people that worked from home for nexon.

    And now nexon no longer has a European branch. Maybe not the best example to cite, friend.
  • TwilightHimeTwilightHime
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    edited February 2020
    GM's and GM team is needed big time to help cut those ilegal trades that land in "legal chars"
    therefore hacking will become harder and less wanted (a better step for less hackers)

    It would be rather difficult to distinguish "legit mains" that are being funded from hacked accounts. I'd say 90% of the crafting material and emob/eboss drops are obtained through hacks. When a major patch comes out, the market for these items becomes pretty dry pretty quickly and supply never keeps up until hackers figure out how to get past the new security.

    That means anyone could be flagged as one of these "mains" if they tried to trace item or cash flow.
    Sure you might have the stupid ones that just move all their mesos and items to one or two characters directly because they're stupid, but one would hope nexon can figure that out.
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    if nexon makes that dream Ai that learns how to catch hacker/rule breaker
    rule breaks/hackers makes same kind of "ai" to learn fast how to avoid such flags

    so it will be endless AI war loop that catch so many wrongly each time it gets "updated"

    Well, that's how auto-ban systems work: you report a hack, GM looks at what's going on, and decides whether they need to add a new rule to their system. Then when they decide it's time to do a sweep, every account that gets caught gets wiped and then bera is no longer always full for a few days.

    GM's manually looking at each case is no different from having a system run the same checks.
    70-140k ~ bans of such accounts each week in a 5k~ playerbase
    they dont care about the ban when they allready transfer the goods to "legit char" they are just burner accounts or whatever they name it
    sure it cleans good chunk of "hackers" but more like only on paper
    just like the operation was successful, but the patient died
    falsely strikeing legit players so often in allready small player base its not just margin of error that just we can go with it

    Well, it's either that or you have 140k characters hacking everywhere. I mean, sure it would be ideal if no legit players were flagged (not everyone that claims to be legit is necessarily legit either), but there isn't really much room for compromise here.

    Having a GM manually go through each character doesn't guarantee that the number of false positives will decrease either. In fact I'd say the number of false positives would only increase because humans get sloppy after checking 30000 characters that are doing the same things and if they happen to get lazy on the 30001st character and it's yours, it's the same result.
    WONDERGUYFuhreak