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[Suggestion] Decent Kishin

MadManuMadManu
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edited May 2017 in Suggestions, Feedback, and Requests
As most people may know, the Beyond update will include a new node for Decent HS. I've been thinking that it would be nice to have a similar node for Kishin, right now people with a Kanna mule have a huge advantage when it comes to training or hunting for rare drops.

Running a Kanna mule means you need another computer or you have to break the ToS using a virtual machine.

Another solution that would work at least on reboot is to add Frenzy Totems to the cash shop for a price similar to Hyper tele rocks maybe, or make it Kanna's link skill. But I prefer the idea of the decent kishin node better because it would only affect characters over level 200, not every link mule/secondary character you make.
Demiheart

Comments

  • FennekinFennekin
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    edited May 2017
    I feel like that'd be a little OP... I already don't really like that they're making HS a node skill lol. But at least they're making it so you need to level it to get the full effectiveness, right? Which would take a lot of node shards. In fact, I think even at max level, it doesn't reach the full effectiveness? According to this - linky. At lvl 25, it only gives 27% exp (is it multiplicative like real HS or additive?) whereas real HS gives 1.5x which stacks multiplicatively.

    Kishin is even more important than HS. If they implement it, I'd want it to only be like, "half" as effective as real Kishin like Decent HS is, but I dunno how that'd work out lol. Triple the spawn but don't decrease spawn timer? Decrease spawn timer but don't triple the spawn? Make it only last 60-90 seconds til you have to rebuff (at max level)?
  • AKradianAKradian
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    edited May 2017
    Considering Nexon broke Kishin to sell Frenzy Totems, I really don't see them making that function available for free in normal servers.

    As for Reboot - I suppose 1-day and 7-day Frenzy Totems can be sold (for meso) in the Cash Shop. But not before all the hackers who gave themselves the skill are banned.

    I'm against making it a skill node because it would require a system for making it available in Reboot only.


    @Fennekin, real HS does not stack with anything anymore. It's just 50% exp on a separate line. So Decent HS is hardly worth the matrix slot unless you're so funded that you can 1-hit the 360 AF mobs without all your boost nodes, or so high-level that you got slots to spare. And you still need to level the node to get any worthwhile exp out of it.

    Could make a Decent Kishin that levels up. The respawn timer would get shorter, and the spawn count would get higher, as the skill levels. Up to caps that would necessarily be not as good as real Kishin, and therefore considerably inferior to Frenzy Totem.
    forumsareannoying
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited May 2017
    Fennekin wrote: »
    I feel like that'd be a little OP... I already don't really like that they're making HS a node skill lol. But at least they're making it so you need to level it to get the full effectiveness, right? Which would take a lot of node shards. In fact, I think even at max level, it doesn't reach the full effectiveness? According to this - linky. At lvl 25, it only gives 27% exp (is it multiplicative like real HS or additive?) whereas real HS gives 1.5x which stacks multiplicatively.

    Kishin is even more important than HS. If they implement it, I'd want it to only be like, "half" as effective as real Kishin like Decent HS is, but I dunno how that'd work out lol. Triple the spawn but don't decrease spawn timer? Decrease spawn timer but don't triple the spawn? Make it only last 60-90 seconds til you have to rebuff (at max level)?

    HS is additive now from bishop
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited May 2017
    the thing about kishin is that theres no difference in spawn from level 1 to max level, only the duration changes.
  • FennekinFennekin
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    edited May 2017
    Oh wow. It's funny - when I was leeching my kanna to 220, I calculated that I'd get ~30b/hr (after fixing my mistake with burning fields), but ended up getting only ~20b lol. Guess HS was the reason I was so off. I thought it was just 2x lag.
    the thing about kishin is that theres no difference in spawn from level 1 to max level, only the duration changes.

    Nexon did show that it's possible for spawn rates to be altered in differing intensities, though. It'd probably be a lot more work than other decent skills, but they might be able to make some kind of skill that improves spawn rate based on its level. I doubt it'll happen, though. Seems like it'd take too much effort.
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited May 2017
    Fennekin wrote: »
    Oh wow. It's funny - when I was leeching my kanna to 220, I calculated that I'd get ~30b/hr (after fixing my mistake with burning fields), but ended up getting only ~20b lol. Guess HS was the reason I was so off. I thought it was just 2x lag.
    the thing about kishin is that theres no difference in spawn from level 1 to max level, only the duration changes.

    Nexon did show that it's possible for spawn rates to be altered in differing intensities, though. It'd probably be a lot more work than other decent skills, but they might be able to make some kind of skill that improves spawn rate based on its level. I doubt it'll happen, though. Seems like it'd take too much effort.

    while im not questioning their abilities, they already have bugs and glitches here and there from their normal updates and such, a skill like this would most likely mean even more bugs.
  • forumsareannoyingforumsareannoying
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    edited May 2017
    AKradian wrote: »
    Considering Nexon broke Kishin to sell Frenzy Totems, I really don't see them making that function available for free in normal servers.

    This basically should be enough to close this thread. Remember when they sold perm hyper rocks...? And now think how they have never been sold again except through marvel. Yeah... Nexon won't do that.
  • iHateForumsiHateForums
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    edited May 2017
    AKradian wrote: »
    Considering Nexon broke Kishin to sell Frenzy Totems, I really don't see them making that function available for free in normal servers.

    This basically should be enough to close this thread. Remember when they sold perm hyper rocks...? And now think how they have never been sold again except through marvel. Yeah... Nexon won't do that.

    That is exactly what happened when they released Frenzy totem tho O.o As for the hyper rock Nexon stated the permanent rock/pendant slot Cs sale was not supposed to be released as permanent. I agree with you that nexon will not make a kishin decent skill, It would only hurt there sales since whales wont have to spend thousands attempting to get the totem.

  • CatoooloooCatooolooo
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    edited May 2017
    AKradian wrote: »
    Considering Nexon broke Kishin to sell Frenzy Totems, I really don't see them making that function available for free in normal servers.

    This basically should be enough to close this thread. Remember when they sold perm hyper rocks...? And now think how they have never been sold again except through marvel. Yeah... Nexon won't do that.

    That is exactly what happened when they released Frenzy totem tho O.o As for the hyper rock Nexon stated the permanent rock/pendant slot Cs sale was not supposed to be released as permanent. I agree with you that nexon will not make a kishin decent skill, It would only hurt there sales since whales wont have to spend thousands attempting to get the totem.

    as for the CS sale statement, I'm very skeptical about that due to the fact that other services (like EMS) have had multiple sales of this item and even did one before the merge.

    also I don't think a Decent "kishin" (would probably be Decent Monolith) would harm their CS sales as Decent all other skills have so far not hurt people selling DSE, DSI or other Decent nebs or potted items. they still want them because they don't have to deal with the CD, it also wouldn't be as effective (for whales) to not use a frenzy totem and use something inferior that would take lots of work to possibly work half as good. I doubt we would get a Decent "Kishin" as Kishin is a very specfic attack skill with passive effects people like to use, but the "Monolith" effect (the thing we are all really talking about) i could see.
  • forumsareannoyingforumsareannoying
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    edited May 2017
    Catooolooo wrote: »



    I don't think a Decent "kishin" (would probably be Decent Monolith) would harm their CS sales as Decent all other skills have so far not hurt people selling DSE, DSI or other Decent nebs or potted items.

    "Decent Kishin" would be MILES beyond what DSE, DSI or any/all nebs combined in value. Whether its a decent skill or monolith or whatever, there's no way in hell Nexon will release that. Not to mention that would make frenzy totems obsolete bcus why spend "thousands"of dollars when u can make do with a decent skill.
  • JulyJuly
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    edited May 2017
    They made a Decent improved Kishing skill, You can obtain it by opening Philosopher books or spin some Marvel! good luck :)
  • CatoooloooCatooolooo
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    edited May 2017
    Catooolooo wrote: »



    I don't think a Decent "kishin" (would probably be Decent Monolith) would harm their CS sales as Decent all other skills have so far not hurt people selling DSE, DSI or other Decent nebs or potted items.

    "Decent Kishin" would be MILES beyond what DSE, DSI or any/all nebs combined in value. Whether its a decent skill or monolith or whatever, there's no way in hell Nexon will release that. Not to mention that would make frenzy totems obsolete bcus why spend "thousands"of dollars when u can make do with a decent skill.

    because people always want the best option if they can afford it, if they did release a Decent Monolith skill it would defiantly not be the full power of the monolith skill the totem has, even at max level, that we can agree on. So why would whales spend time and money on that skill when they could buy a better version with less effort to make it half as good. People can already use Kanna mules to get around paying for the totem or use friends with Kannas that are willing to use kishin while you train, it's not like the totem was ever the only way.

    Kanna's skill is free and not as effective as the totem and while some people (who can't afford to buy the totem) still uses kishin mules or kanna friends, most of the whales are aiming for getting the totem whenever they can, and Decent monolith won't change that, just as DSI as a neb or pot line is still wanted over the core skill due to the shortcomings with the skill and the work that would need to be put in to make it equal.

    all a Decent monolith skill would do is make people less inclined to use kanna mules. Just like if there was an item you could buy from marvel that gave a way better version of HS, whales would choose that over a Decent HS skill or an HS mule (Bish or Phant)
  • forumsareannoyingforumsareannoying
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    edited May 2017
    Catooolooo wrote: »
    Catooolooo wrote: »



    I don't think a Decent "kishin" (would probably be Decent Monolith) would harm their CS sales as Decent all other skills have so far not hurt people selling DSE, DSI or other Decent nebs or potted items.

    "Decent Kishin" would be MILES beyond what DSE, DSI or any/all nebs combined in value. Whether its a decent skill or monolith or whatever, there's no way in hell Nexon will release that. Not to mention that would make frenzy totems obsolete bcus why spend "thousands"of dollars when u can make do with a decent skill.

    because people always want the best option if they can afford it, if they did release a Decent Monolith skill it would defiantly not be the full power of the monolith skill the totem has, even at max level, that we can agree on. So why would whales spend time and money on that skill when they could buy a better version with less effort to make it half as good. People can already use Kanna mules to get around paying for the totem or use friends with Kannas that are willing to use kishin while you train, it's not like the totem was ever the only way.

    Kanna's skill is free and not as effective as the totem and while some people (who can't afford to buy the totem) still uses kishin mules or kanna friends, most of the whales are aiming for getting the totem whenever they can, and Decent monolith won't change that, just as DSI as a neb or pot line is still wanted over the core skill due to the shortcomings with the skill and the work that would need to be put in to make it equal.

    all a Decent monolith skill would do is make people less inclined to use kanna mules. Just like if there was an item you could buy from marvel that gave a way better version of HS, whales would choose that over a Decent HS skill or an HS mule (Bish or Phant)

    I understand what you're saying but I don't think you understand me :/

    My point: Releasing a Decent Kishin skill will hurt Nexon. And Nexon was already criticized for nerfing Kanna's just to make $$$ off of Frenzy Totems and they just didn't care. They didn't even acknowledge the outrage(as far as I know). So what I'm trying to say is, they went that far to make more $$$ from Frenzy Totems, i don't think they will release a Decent Kishin skill as it will hurt their sales in a negative way.

    And yes, people can use Kannas or even a friends kanna but after a certain point(lv200+) it becomes hard for most people to get a Kanna to Arcane maps. Let alone keep them alive with the mobs there.

    BUT!!!! I sincerely wish that Nexon does add a Decent Kishin skill. I really really do because I'm not desperate enough to spend $1,000+ trying to get a Frenzy Totem. And I don't care if Decent Kishin would offer 60% less of the benefit, I would rather get the skill for free
  • CatoooloooCatooolooo
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    edited May 2017
    Catooolooo wrote: »
    Catooolooo wrote: »



    I don't think a Decent "kishin" (would probably be Decent Monolith) would harm their CS sales as Decent all other skills have so far not hurt people selling DSE, DSI or other Decent nebs or potted items.

    "Decent Kishin" would be MILES beyond what DSE, DSI or any/all nebs combined in value. Whether its a decent skill or monolith or whatever, there's no way in hell Nexon will release that. Not to mention that would make frenzy totems obsolete bcus why spend "thousands"of dollars when u can make do with a decent skill.

    because people always want the best option if they can afford it, if they did release a Decent Monolith skill it would defiantly not be the full power of the monolith skill the totem has, even at max level, that we can agree on. So why would whales spend time and money on that skill when they could buy a better version with less effort to make it half as good. People can already use Kanna mules to get around paying for the totem or use friends with Kannas that are willing to use kishin while you train, it's not like the totem was ever the only way.

    Kanna's skill is free and not as effective as the totem and while some people (who can't afford to buy the totem) still uses kishin mules or kanna friends, most of the whales are aiming for getting the totem whenever they can, and Decent monolith won't change that, just as DSI as a neb or pot line is still wanted over the core skill due to the shortcomings with the skill and the work that would need to be put in to make it equal.

    all a Decent monolith skill would do is make people less inclined to use kanna mules. Just like if there was an item you could buy from marvel that gave a way better version of HS, whales would choose that over a Decent HS skill or an HS mule (Bish or Phant)

    I understand what you're saying but I don't think you understand me :/

    My point: Releasing a Decent Kishin skill will hurt Nexon. And Nexon was already criticized for nerfing Kanna's just to make $$$ off of Frenzy Totems and they just didn't care. They didn't even acknowledge the outrage(as far as I know). So what I'm trying to say is, they went that far to make more $$$ from Frenzy Totems, i don't think they will release a Decent Kishin skill as it will hurt their sales in a negative way.

    And yes, people can use Kannas or even a friends kanna but after a certain point(lv200+) it becomes hard for most people to get a Kanna to Arcane maps. Let alone keep them alive with the mobs there.

    BUT!!!! I sincerely wish that Nexon does add a Decent Kishin skill. I really really do because I'm not desperate enough to spend $1,000+ trying to get a Frenzy Totem. And I don't care if Decent Kishin would offer 60% less of the benefit, I would rather get the skill for free

    you are missing my point

    I dont see how adding a skill that is, by default, inferior to what they are selling, will hurt nexon in profits from the item, unless you are saying the already unfunded or non-NX paying players will suddenly dump a ton of money just for the totem.

    you are looking at it from the perspective of any non- heavy spender and to you it looks like they would lose money, but honestly it wouldn't because players in general want the best of everything if they can afford it, especially the "whales".

    what I've noticed is that if most people see the best thing out there they compare to the best thing and say "they are losing out on X% " because they are not using the best items, this is how many of the "whales" look at it and players in general. A slightly better comparison would be 3% nebs to 4% nebs, simply due to that 1% more per neb they cost astronomically more because that's potentially 20% mainstat they are missing out on if they put a 4% on each equip. and sellers know that there are players that want the best on all their gear.

    the same is said of the totem, not only do you not need a mule but it's tradable (meaning they can move it from character to character if they want to change mains or other) and gives a better effect on spawn than kishin.

    the only real people that can afford the totem are the whales and the whales generally want the best of everything with what they spend. in the end not effecting nexon much.

    I am of the unpopular belief that nexon botched the nerf they were suppose to do to kishin (one that was reported to come anyway) and the kishin break was a result of nexon messing up as usual (skills with kanna broke often enough before the totem) and the breaking of kishin has coincided with the totem release, not to say that accident didn't somewhat have a type of effect of boosting whales to go for broke on getting the totem, I just don't find nexon competent enough to have a plan like that, that and kanna had been having a string of bugs in the updates leading up to that nerf anyway. Them taking forever to fix the bug is also usual as the previous kanna bugs before that one had taken a while to fix (that's more bugs in general though)

    the only real things they seem to spring into action for are mass disconnect issues and huge exploits, everything else sits on a waiting list for a week to months to maybe even years before a fix.

    The kishin incident was only a big problem because so many people rely heavily on it (especially reboot) on top of the nerf that was meant to happen, but I would say not even half the amount of people rely on the other kanna skills that have been bugged (or bugs like the potion pot restoring "MANA" ) because they do not main or really care about the Kanna class
    also in the same update didn't the Divinity ring or whatever it's called that gives heavens door come out, why would they not just break heavens door to make that ring sell as well. may as well nip that useful party skill to make some extra cash from that ring too if they are going to do it with kishin.
    Demiheart
  • forumsareannoyingforumsareannoying
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    edited May 2017
    Catooolooo wrote: »


    you are missing my point

    I dont see how adding a skill that is, by default, inferior to what they are selling, will hurt nexon in profits from the item, unless you are saying the already unfunded or non-NX paying players will suddenly dump a ton of money just for the totem.

    I guess I got carried away somewhere. But for the sake of staying on-topic, no. I don't think unfunded/non-nx paying players will suddenly spend more to try and get a totem. But it would simply make Nexon's decision to nerf Kishin and release the totem look really stupid. Because at first, we only had Kishin and it was great. Then, they nerfed Kishin for the p2w totem that only like 0.5%-1% have. And lastly, a decent skill would trump both Kishin and Totems.

    That 0.5-1% would probably still seek a totem... but the vast majority would go after the Decent skill. While I probably could get a frenzy totem, I would much rather spend the $ to complete my equips(which, let's be honest, no one ever really "finishes" funding in Maple) and I'm sure the majority of players feel this way as well.

    But for the sake of not debating anymore because, I just want to say that I'm fully behind Decent Kishin and hope it becomes a real thing :)
    Demiheart
  • iHateForumsiHateForums
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    edited May 2017
    MadManu wrote: »
    right now people with a Kanna mule have a huge advantage when it comes to training or hunting for rare drops.

    Agreed entirely, A friend of mine has the exact same drop rate as i do, Yet they get 3x as many nodes during a 2x event as i do due to having a kanna. I support having a decent kishin skill implemented alongside with the decent hs node.
  • DiscordOfColorsDiscordOfColors
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    edited June 2017
    a lot of party skills like sharp eyes speed infusion bless and soon even holy symbol are no longer unique per class thanks to 5th job, and there is one unique skill that isn't a part of kms and therefore it will not be added (most likely) in the override patch, and that skill is kishin shoukan. i believe the addition of that skill will greatly balance the game flow for the lesser funded who can't afford a) kish service b) a second computer or c) frenzy totem. i understand your main income right now is from random boxes with crazy things like frenzy and totem however the people who aim for the top would not stop with a nerfed version of kishin, they will still spend their time and effort to try and get the best of the best. that's why i think it will not hurt your income during such events if you will add this skill.

    i understand its a blasphemy to even think outside the box known as kms, but please consider this as it will really be a nice addition for the average mapler :)
  • RollsRolls
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    edited June 2017
    MadManu wrote: »
    right now people with a Kanna mule have a huge advantage when it comes to training or hunting for rare drops.

    Running a Kanna mule means you need another computer or you have to break the ToS using a virtual machine.

    I've seen people getting kanna mules to 225 so they can use them at Arcane River. It's absolutely atrocious that one would have to do that to train/farm at the highest efficiency. Honestly, decent kishin or cs frenzy totem, whichever one will make it possible to farm on my main again - which is far more enjoyable than just being on a mule.
  • DiscordOfColorsDiscordOfColors
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    edited June 2017
    AlexF wrote: »
    @DiscordOfColors,

    I've merged your thread since this was already suggested.

    lol. it looks like i just summed up this whole thread in my post.
    i rule B)
  • PetalmagicPetalmagic
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    edited June 2017
    Being in Reboot, I say no. Kannas are one of the only ways I can party with my friends anymore for 2x (I usually play the Kanna, oh wow, Im not an afk mule)