How many players actually go to forum? That is why most of my ideas above is based on facts, not on opinion. About how many people reply in here, doesn't means it represent the whole community. That is why i try to make this post based on facts. Not Merely opinion without fact. also people can make a lot of account either in forum or inside maplestory. Even some players have more than 10 level 200+ in 1 account. it still doesn't represent the community. that is why i try to elaborate facts. Not just opinion. So far opinion have made what maplestory today, getting less and less players. maplestory is dying. I can even count the numbers of players in FM channel 1 in Windia and some other servers. That is fact. Let me ask you, grinding is not boring? I did go to some players and ask, do you think endless grinding is boring? do you think grinding to lv 250 is boring? do you think grinding 40 chars to level 250 is boring? most of them say, yes it is so boring. not saying lv 250, even they say levleling at 230 is so boring. Mesos farming also boring.
I can agree with some things you say, for example the fact that most people only suggest short term things to be included or social dynamics/aspects of things like gender neutrality etc instead of actual content to progress the game, I think we see eye to eye on that. But like I said, if it were an alternative to farming/grinding, Im all for it. Maybe a limit of 5 entries per characters in the world youre playing.
50 times is too much, should be no more than 10 and maybe less if it is able to be done on all characters in your world.
Even 5 times a day per maple ID is a juicy amount of mesos if each run is 100mil. 1 run would be about the same as zakum farming on 40 characters with no meso drop.
oh another idea came up. Coz hacker can read Quests ID coz it is client sided, you don't actually have to switch all the quests to server sided. Only the PQ for mesos farming is server sided. so maybe 3-5 quests in total? it is if server sided quest is possible. And the PQ itself will have a random 5-10 quests inside it so hack will not be able to guess which quests/tasks will be given to players.
50 times is too much, should be no more than 10 and maybe less if it is able to be done on all characters in your world.
Even 5 times a day per maple ID is a juicy amount of mesos if each run is 100mil. 1 run would be about the same as zakum farming on 40 characters with no meso drop.
as an alternative is one thing...but he watns an outright replacement of it all :T
as an alternative is one thing...but he watns an outright replacement of it all :T
Don't worry, it'll all be fine since if we go through with these suggestions, Nexon can just wave some magical wand and bring back all maple's lost players and the game will once more be highly popular. And that's fact, not opinion. Am I doing this right?
Nope. it is not a magical wand. it is not possible to have maplestory to be great in a few days, even in few months. It is your opinion if you think it is possible to make maple highly popular in short time. In fact, it will takes time, and a process, and not only the lost players will come back, but it will also bring new players, from mouth to mouth they will tell the story of how fun is maplestory. They tell their brothers, their friends, or tell their neighbour if they think the game is fun. Btw, i was not the one who said about the lost players. But it will brings any lost players plus new players to come and enjoy maplestory. I am trying to bring maple to new heights and new fun.
To attract new players, they need a better marketing strategy. To keep current players, they need more than short term suggestions. A business is a business, and they need more than one time spending type of changes as suggestions. If there was a way to double the mesos gotten from the quests say via a nx coupon from cash shop, that could be plausible. again, as an alternative not replacement.
to go on a side note, for 2 really popular classes around being dual blade and night lord, I havent seen anyone suggest permanent throwing star covers and perm nx katara covers. We dont see long term suggestion much roni, thats why they get taken off guard with a suggestion like this.
Well, either it is replacement or alternative, it comes back to developers. Let them see all the facts that has been happening so far in Maplestory and decide. Most of the things i said above, most of them with the facts that can support my suggestion. I appreciate more the elaboration and addition of the ideas, to give more suggestion to maple. Instead of just saying "no" without giving a fact or opinion with the fact that can support it.
@Darkpassenger. Yeah, I agree with the marketing strategy. Tho as addition, it is not the only way, the fun inside the game will keep players playing and even spread the news. Marketing is also another way to attract newly fresh players as customer.
Well, either it is replacement or alternative, it comes back to developers. Let them see all the facts that has been happening so far in Maplestory and decide. Most of the things i said above, most of them with the facts that can support my suggestion. I appreciate more the elaboration and addition of the ideas, to give more suggestion to maple. Instead of just saying "no" without giving a fact or opinion with the fact that can support it.
@Darkpassenger. Yeah, I agree with the marketing strategy. Tho as addition, it is not the only way, the fun inside the game will keep players playing and even spread the news. Marketing is also another way to attract newly fresh players as customer.
dude, no facts support your ideas to any degree.
no one has said "no" without giving a fact that shatters your list of "solutions"
you want some cold hard facts
1. Automated scripts exist, hackers can and do use these scripts, they use them all the time and used to use them more in the past, and have and still use them for map jumping, turning in quests and to avoiding ban by GM.
2. "if they can detect the quests, then hide them" they literally can not do that, that is not how the game functions, all quest data resides in that 1 file called Quest.wz, and that wz file is the only way your client can recognize/ read/see Quest data, if it's not there then your client will not know it's there and therefore no one can see it. even if they "hid" the data of the quest server side, the Quest.wiz still needs a "tag" ID to identify that the rest of the data is stored server side so the client would recognize it, and that could still be exploited and identified through packet reading and manipulation.
3. the suggestions you propose do not stop, hurt or demoralize hackers, but will hurt and demoralize legitimate players of the game, the most that your plausible ideas would do to hackers is make them come up with a different automation script and by the next day they would be in full force.
all these ideas are terrible for a game that is meant to be a traditional MMO, for trying to get rid of a problem that goes beyond what you can conceive.
The devs will do with this suggestion that they do with most, look at it, laugh at it, and move on with progressing the game with mostly KMS content.
the best way to kill the hackers is by
1. figuring out how (or what in the code) allows them to identify when a GM is online (I suspect it's a GM command of somekind getting exploited)
2. if you can't patch the code, find a way to exploit it so their program sees a GM online all the time.
3. if you can't exploit it, use the info to your advantage and have a GM account on all servers, all the time, they do not need to be actively doing anything at first but it will lock out the bots for a while before they retire the GM detection program, this shouldn't be too hard if there really is "24/7 GM patrolling" anyway
hurt them with their own protection tool is a good way to lock them out or force them to no longer rely on it.
all these ideas are terrible for a game that is meant to be a traditional MMO, for trying to get rid of a problem that goes beyond what you can conceive.
The devs will do with this suggestion that they do with most, look at it, laugh at it, and move on with progressing the game with mostly KMS content.
And they'll be laughing a lot more at this one specifically.
It's hilarious, cause all you said's just going to be an "opinion" to him because you disagreed.
oh another idea came up. Coz hacker can read Quests ID coz it is client sided, you don't actually have to switch all the quests to server sided. Only the PQ for mesos farming is server sided. so maybe 3-5 quests in total? it is if server sided quest is possible. And the PQ itself will have a random 5-10 quests inside it so hack will not be able to guess which quests/tasks will be given to players.
If any piece of data is readable to you, it is also readable to the bot. So, even if a bot can't "hook" into the programme's memory, or read the quest data from a file, if you can open your quest log and read the quest description which tells you to kill three pigs and talk to someone or something, a bot can read that as well. As far as I know, there's no convinient way to obfuscate text to be unradable to a bot without turning everything into a CAPTCHA, and we don't want to turn everything into a CAPTCHA, because those are annoying and would be disruptive for the flow of the game.
@Catalooo.
On your expertise (which i don't really know how expert you are), are there really no way to lock documents into secret? I want to know before i hear your expertise opinions regarding autoscript and stuff, i need to know whether you have experience on the areas you are talking about? like how long have you been working on making games, application or anything related to it? Or if you have working in some anti-hacking company or stuff. Or is it so easy for everyone to become master and expert in anti-hacking with just few years of experience? I am honest since early i said that i don't have any expertise at all, zero expertise regarding this. This is my opinion, probably to become a hacker doesn't need expertise, but to be someone who can prevent hacker, i believe must be someone who really knows how things work.
Otherwise, if there is truly no ways to prevent others to take a peek into our documents, from years ago, all bank and finance company would have been going busted and bankrupt because all of their customers data would have been stolen by hackers. So my logics tells me there must be must some ways. That is why I am asking about your expertise. Or do you think that all of the bank’s customer data is no longer safe because there is no way to keep it safe from hacker? The fact is even though I know, especially bank, is struggling to keep their millions of customer’s data safe, but somehow they managed to do it. This is what I call Hard Cold Fact. Most what you said as hard cold fact sounds like a fact but it is actually because you “think” there is no way to prevent it. So tell me, how are those big companies keep their data safe? But my logic and from what I seen, I can see some company survive to protect their data and information safe eventhough it is requires expert to do this. Even Youtube will lost all of their important client data if there is no way to prevent hacker from stealing their data. I am no expert in this field, but my logic says, this is what I call hard cold fact. Not just a hard cold fact from your own point of view.
My questions,
1. so is there no way for any MMORPG out there to prevent their quests being hacked
2. So there is not even a single way in this whole world to prevent our documents to be safe from any hacker? there is no way to encrypt or save our data to get stolen by others?
"The devs will do with this suggestion that they do with most, look at it, laugh at it, and move on with progressing the game with mostly KMS content."
You might be expertise at programming and stuff, but you are zero in expressing your opinion or ideas. Making opinion and discussion by putting out pressure to others using some words like *laughable, terrible ideas, and stuff" proves that your ability to communicate with others or how to lead of a disccussion into a great ideas with others is zero. What i am trying to do is not to use words that de-moralise others to actually giving ideas. That is why I bring the discussion into Fact, not just opinion. Suggestion is welcome. I believe if you have expertise in programming field, it means you have made a lot of dollars. I suggest you save some of our pocket money to get some classes to help you learn to do better at doing discussion so probably you can get better score than zero.
But other than that, i appreciate the other discussions that you have made. So far only you have actually talk something that i think have a bit in depth and have vibe of expertise. Several others are just saying something that doesn't even touch the skin. So all i can feel the others are just pretending to be expert at programming. I think you have working on programming maybe around at least 5 years or more? Or are you just some student who is still learning about programming? At least I know whether I am talking to someone who is expert in programming or just some green student who think that they are the best expert in this field.
"the best way to kill the hackers is by
1. figuring out how (or what in the code) allows them to identify when a GM is online (I suspect it's a GM command of somekind getting exploited)
2. if you can't patch the code, find a way to exploit it so their program sees a GM online all the time.
3. if you can't exploit it, use the info to your advantage and have a GM account on all servers, all the time, they do not need to be actively doing anything at first but it will lock out the bots for a while before they retire the GM detection program, this shouldn't be too hard if there really is "24/7 GM patrolling" anyway
hurt them with their own protection tool is a good way to lock them out or force them to no longer rely on it. "
Hmmm I appreciate this suggestion, this is not opinion, not facts, but at at least i know that you put a bit of thinking in these suggestions. And i so appreciate suggestions that brings up this discussions into a different level. . Probably might work. So hope the GM will read it. I believe Maplestory/Nexon have their own expert in doing this. I actually thinking that hackers somehow get ahold of GM stuff coz i one time i tried to report a hacker who can move to different channel and at the same time move map in the split second. And it can be that they hold some GM command. I can't prove it so i can't report something i don't have prove at. All i did was going into the channel and the map and suddenly in a split second, the hackers was already in a different map on a different channel. On your 2nd suggestion, is it to try to detect anyone who uses GM command? what do you mean by sees GM online all the time? Or maybe a way so that GM can track down who actually use GM program without autorization? The 3rd suggestion, i don't know if making GM account appear on all server will help solve the hacker problem? Or maybe i understand it wrong. Having GM patrolling 24/7 is hardly possible unless Maplestory Global hires people in another country who have different time. Otherwise they would have to hire someone to work at night.
I believe hacker can read if someone coming into their map and then move them automatically into different map and different channel. Can it actually be prevented?
@SlicedTime
Are there no way to put it onto some secret code so that without this secret code, hackers will just read something they can't understand without the blue book (i mean without them knowing the secret code). Does maplestory actually giving out everything of all their program as open as in the air for hackers to see? If they have no protection into their program or coding, this is so bad.
And Yeah, I am 100% disagree to make it into CAPTCHA. not even cross my mind to doing it that way.
@SlicedTime
Are there no way to put it onto some secret code so that without this secret code, hackers will just read something they can't understand without the blue book (i mean without them knowing the secret code). Does maplestory actually giving out everything of all their program as open as in the air for hackers to see? If they have no protection into their program or coding, this is so bad.
And Yeah, I am 100% disagree to make it into CAPTCHA. not even cross my mind to doing it that way.
There is no way, if players can read it cheaters can too.
@SlicedTime
Are there no way to put it onto some secret code so that without this secret code, hackers will just read something they can't understand without the blue book (i mean without them knowing the secret code). Does maplestory actually giving out everything of all their program as open as in the air for hackers to see? If they have no protection into their program or coding, this is so bad.
And Yeah, I am 100% disagree to make it into CAPTCHA. not even cross my mind to doing it that way.
A botter doesn't NEED to be able to hook into the program memory or to read the .wz file. All a botter needs to essentially do is make a simple script that runs in an infinite loop. Of course, they are likely going to augment their bot by hooking it into the memory, thus allowing them to make more advanced bots. However, instead of hooking into the memory, they can just use "screen readers" to monitor certain values on the screen, such as HP and quest status. With a bit more work they can teach the bot to "read" the quest log right from the screen, allowing the bot to recognice quest requirements et cetera.
Hackers, on the other hand, need to be able to hook into the memory (at least in Maple's case), otherwise they wouldn't be able to achieve feats such as full-map blaze wizard attacks.
There's hardly any way to fight bots in a game like this. Nexon's biggest problem, in my opinion, is that there are falws in the game code, the game engine code, and/or the internal game logic, that can be exploited by hackers to massively boost the efficiency of bots. If those flaws were fixed and/or proper safe guards placed, bots would become far less effective, possibly reducing the incentive to bot.
The important thing to remember is that if you can read something, so can a bot if it has the same priviledges. If the data is accesible to you, it is also accessible to a bot. If you can read a quest log, so can a bot if the bot is programmed to do so. Task automation is not that difficult.
Most of these things are fairly simple. You don't need to be an expert to know that task automation is easy, or to know basics of cyber security.
This is what I call Hard Cold Fact. Most what you said as hard cold fact sounds like a fact but it is actually because you “think” there is no way to prevent it. So tell me, how are those big companies keep their data safe? But my logic and from what I seen, I can see some company survive to protect their data and information safe eventhough it is requires expert to do this. Even Youtube will lost all of their important client data if there is no way to prevent hacker from stealing their data. I am no expert in this field, but my logic says, this is what I call hard cold fact. Not just a hard cold fact from your own point of view.
Please. Looks like you believe everything you disagree with is an opinion, and everything you say is a fact. Because suspiciously enough, that's how it's been so far. You've keep demanding "facts" and yet nothing is a fact to you. It's all "just opinions." And if there's more evidence or explanations, on the off chance that's not an opinion, it's invalid cause that person "hasn't made 10 mmos" or "isn't an expert." This is a suggestions section. Anyone can make a suggestion, no matter how small or how inexperienced in the subject. Do I need a resume of over 30 years of working in every single facet of the making of 10 different MMOs to satisfy you? Because I'm sure that even if that were the case, you'd still find some excuse to invalidate what I'd have to say, no matter how conprehensive or extensive, because it's definitely not going to agree with you.
You might be expertise at programming and stuff, but you are zero in expressing your opinion or ideas. Making opinion and discussion by putting out pressure to others using some words like *laughable, terrible ideas, and stuff" proves that your ability to communicate with others or how to lead of a disccussion into a great ideas with others is zero. What i am trying to do is not to use words that de-moralise others to actually giving ideas. That is why I bring the discussion into Fact, not just opinion. Suggestion is welcome. I believe if you have expertise in programming field, it means you have made a lot of dollars. I suggest you save some of our pocket money to get some classes to help you learn to do better at doing discussion so probably you can get better score than zero.
You clearly don't know this game's GMs and how terrible they are. They copy paste responses, they deny you information, they deny you dialogue to discuss issues like bans, they don't even ban hackers that you report to them in live chat, despite them saying they'll look into it. They don't even play the game. It's questionable if they even read in game reports. People have lost most of their faith in GMs. And you expect that they'll read more than 10% of what people suggest here, let alone implement a decent amount of that? The most they will possibly do is get a good laugh at what a joke this entire thread is if they read it.
Quit trying to act like no one else has any ground to say anything. If anyone, that's you. You're the one attempting to invalidate any argument that doesn't support yours. You're the one acting like yours is the unquestionably superior idea, and that to dare dissent to it is "just opinion." But from what I can tell, there is absolutely no idea that disagrees with yours that you can ever possibly commend as constructive or this mystical substance that is "fact" that everyone but you is devoid of, because you aren't open to criticism.
But who am I to say anything? After all, everything I've said is just an opinion, not a fact.
@Catalooo.
On your expertise (which i don't really know how expert you are), are there really no way to lock documents into secret? I want to know before i hear your expertise opinions regarding autoscript and stuff, i need to know whether you have experience on the areas you are talking about? like how long have you been working on making games, application or anything related to it? Or if you have working in some anti-hacking company or stuff. Or is it so easy for everyone to become master and expert in anti-hacking with just few years of experience? I am honest since early i said that i don't have any expertise at all, zero expertise regarding this. This is my opinion, probably to become a hacker doesn't need expertise, but to be someone who can prevent hacker, i believe must be someone who really knows how things work.
Otherwise, if there is truly no ways to prevent others to take a peek into our documents, from years ago, all bank and finance company would have been going busted and bankrupt because all of their customers data would have been stolen by hackers. So my logics tells me there must be must some ways. That is why I am asking about your expertise. Or do you think that all of the bank’s customer data is no longer safe because there is no way to keep it safe from hacker? The fact is even though I know, especially bank, is struggling to keep their millions of customer’s data safe, but somehow they managed to do it. This is what I call Hard Cold Fact. Most what you said as hard cold fact sounds like a fact but it is actually because you “think” there is no way to prevent it. So tell me, how are those big companies keep their data safe? But my logic and from what I seen, I can see some company survive to protect their data and information safe eventhough it is requires expert to do this. Even Youtube will lost all of their important client data if there is no way to prevent hacker from stealing their data. I am no expert in this field, but my logic says, this is what I call hard cold fact. Not just a hard cold fact from your own point of view.
My questions,
1. so is there no way for any MMORPG out there to prevent their quests being hacked
2. So there is not even a single way in this whole world to prevent our documents to be safe from any hacker? there is no way to encrypt or save our data to get stolen by others?
"The devs will do with this suggestion that they do with most, look at it, laugh at it, and move on with progressing the game with mostly KMS content."
You might be expertise at programming and stuff, but you are zero in expressing your opinion or ideas. Making opinion and discussion by putting out pressure to others using some words like *laughable, terrible ideas, and stuff" proves that your ability to communicate with others or how to lead of a disccussion into a great ideas with others is zero. What i am trying to do is not to use words that de-moralise others to actually giving ideas. That is why I bring the discussion into Fact, not just opinion. Suggestion is welcome. I believe if you have expertise in programming field, it means you have made a lot of dollars. I suggest you save some of our pocket money to get some classes to help you learn to do better at doing discussion so probably you can get better score than zero.
But other than that, i appreciate the other discussions that you have made. So far only you have actually talk something that i think have a bit in depth and have vibe of expertise. Several others are just saying something that doesn't even touch the skin. So all i can feel the others are just pretending to be expert at programming. I think you have working on programming maybe around at least 5 years or more? Or are you just some student who is still learning about programming? At least I know whether I am talking to someone who is expert in programming or just some green student who think that they are the best expert in this field.
dude, you can not compare hacking an MMO to Hacking into a bank.
the fact that you make that comparison merely shows how much understanding you lack.
banks do not make you download a client on to your computer or phone which contains 90% of relevant data that the bank has, to work.
Banks also have huge investments into cyber security and highly advanced crypto algorithms for protecting the data on all their systems, which is in no way comparable to how Maple (or most online games) can or do combat hacking. the closest thing any company has gotten as far as gaming is concerned is with that one really complex anti-piracy that slows your computer down with games that use it.
As far as my qualifications, programming is a hobby of mine, been doing it for about 8 years, mostly cause I like to know how things work which is why I have not pursued a career in it, but I have to say, all that I said in my previous post is very basic information that anyone with basic understanding of programing and a basic understanding of how client based games operate, would know.
as for your 2 questions,
1. no, there is no MMO out there that can prevent you from reading the data but somehow (through magic) the client reads the data. there has to be a way to relay the data to the client, either through files directly relate to the client or through packets of data from the server to the client and if it's going from server to client then you can see the packet using a packet sniffer and on top of that the client needs to know to expect (have a protocol) this data or else the client either ignores the data or a crash is caused, and the hackers are exploiting the client. I mean they could possibly encrypt data in the packets better but since the hackers are just exploiting the client (which contains 90% of the data) they would easily be able to decrypt the packets.
As previously stated, botters do not even need to hook the data from the client, simply having a screen reader would be enough, but they would probably build it into the hacking program due to how the gold farms actually run multiple instances of maple from 1 computer.
2. there are ways to prevent our documents from getting retrieved from hackers, but your files are not available directly from a games client files. if the hackers were able to access every bit of data related to the game from the tools they are using and the methods they are using, everyone account would be hacked and all security would be compromised on nexons servers (which is where this data is kept), that's not the case, and hackers wouldn't be able to access this data with the same methods they use to exploit the client, unless nexon has a data leak somewhere (like the MTS incident)
But just to inform you of how there is no invulnerable system against hacking that can just be thrown into place, I'd also like you to know that even the government gets hacked from time to time, sometimes even with ransom-ware. to prevent hacking vulnerabilities in something like this requires lots of investment in just cyber security and constant updates of the hacking prevention system, much more than any game would be worth.
Now I could talk about how lousy and terribly thought up this idea is, and your lack of understanding or wanting to even take in the information because "lul u r not a gam dev" till the cows come home, but if that's honestly the only reason you are trying to deflect the facts that have been laid out, you should also need to be a game dev before you post an idea, at least get some yeas in of computer science, some coding languages, and develop an app or two before you post another Idea if you want to fight about the critique of it's plausibility and effectiveness.
@Daxi.:Basically players, or me, can't read. It is the client who read it for us. But i don't know fi that is what you meant.
@Rolls : Because what you said doesn't even touch the skin of anything.
@Sliced :
1. About the Automation on doing quest, even though it will let their char do things aumatically, mostlikely it will act similar to players. Hackers might still gain advantages but not as bad as when they are hacking 1 map while gathering a lot of mobs in 1 spot and kill them simultaneously. But still gain benefit tho lesser.
2. Are you trying to say that actually hacker modified the game code, engine code or internal game logic? Is it possible to track players who does taking advantage/modify the game engine logic?
3. You are talking about breaching into memory. So actually hacker just simply crack maple code, memory and client?
4. Even if the Quests is made to be random of 5-10 quests, can task automation still read it?
@Cataloo
1. So maple actually need to apply Crypto Algorithms,. And apply it into their game client security so that noone can read the game client. But mostlikely it will cost them sumj.
2. So it is actually not impossible but using complex anti-piracy that possibly will slow down maplestory game
3. Hmm all in all, the main trouble itself is the game client is easily cracked, readable and exploited
4. It is still possible if Nexon separate the data which not inside the game client so that hacker cannot steal the information.
Is 4 points i write above what you are trying to say?
I also noticed that the hacks used by Blaze Wizard seemed to changed. Days ago, they used to use a full map attack that hit about 8 lines that seemed to "rise up." Now I see them using a not as effective full map attack that hits only 3 lines and hits less mobs. I'm guessing the hackers are now hacking the skill Blazing Extinction because I occasionally see the "sun" and Blazing Extinction hits 3 lines compared to a mass of numbers. Twilight Perion seem to be somewhat clear. I haven't seen a thing there lately.
I have the feeling the old full map attack mentioned above got patched because there was the blaze wizards were gone for a while only to come back with a thankfully inferior full map attack and not a FMA with some other no-delay stuff.
These are only my observations from my strolls through Herb Town.
Comments
I can agree with some things you say, for example the fact that most people only suggest short term things to be included or social dynamics/aspects of things like gender neutrality etc instead of actual content to progress the game, I think we see eye to eye on that. But like I said, if it were an alternative to farming/grinding, Im all for it. Maybe a limit of 5 entries per characters in the world youre playing.
Even 5 times a day per maple ID is a juicy amount of mesos if each run is 100mil. 1 run would be about the same as zakum farming on 40 characters with no meso drop.
as an alternative is one thing...but he watns an outright replacement of it all :T
Don't worry, it'll all be fine since if we go through with these suggestions, Nexon can just wave some magical wand and bring back all maple's lost players and the game will once more be highly popular. And that's fact, not opinion.
Am I doing this right?to go on a side note, for 2 really popular classes around being dual blade and night lord, I havent seen anyone suggest permanent throwing star covers and perm nx katara covers. We dont see long term suggestion much roni, thats why they get taken off guard with a suggestion like this.
@Darkpassenger. Yeah, I agree with the marketing strategy. Tho as addition, it is not the only way, the fun inside the game will keep players playing and even spread the news. Marketing is also another way to attract newly fresh players as customer.
dude, no facts support your ideas to any degree.
no one has said "no" without giving a fact that shatters your list of "solutions"
you want some cold hard facts
1. Automated scripts exist, hackers can and do use these scripts, they use them all the time and used to use them more in the past, and have and still use them for map jumping, turning in quests and to avoiding ban by GM.
2. "if they can detect the quests, then hide them" they literally can not do that, that is not how the game functions, all quest data resides in that 1 file called Quest.wz, and that wz file is the only way your client can recognize/ read/see Quest data, if it's not there then your client will not know it's there and therefore no one can see it. even if they "hid" the data of the quest server side, the Quest.wiz still needs a "tag" ID to identify that the rest of the data is stored server side so the client would recognize it, and that could still be exploited and identified through packet reading and manipulation.
3. the suggestions you propose do not stop, hurt or demoralize hackers, but will hurt and demoralize legitimate players of the game, the most that your plausible ideas would do to hackers is make them come up with a different automation script and by the next day they would be in full force.
all these ideas are terrible for a game that is meant to be a traditional MMO, for trying to get rid of a problem that goes beyond what you can conceive.
The devs will do with this suggestion that they do with most, look at it, laugh at it, and move on with progressing the game with mostly KMS content.
the best way to kill the hackers is by
1. figuring out how (or what in the code) allows them to identify when a GM is online (I suspect it's a GM command of somekind getting exploited)
2. if you can't patch the code, find a way to exploit it so their program sees a GM online all the time.
3. if you can't exploit it, use the info to your advantage and have a GM account on all servers, all the time, they do not need to be actively doing anything at first but it will lock out the bots for a while before they retire the GM detection program, this shouldn't be too hard if there really is "24/7 GM patrolling" anyway
hurt them with their own protection tool is a good way to lock them out or force them to no longer rely on it.
And they'll be laughing a lot more at this one specifically.
It's hilarious, cause all you said's just going to be an "opinion" to him because you disagreed.
If any piece of data is readable to you, it is also readable to the bot. So, even if a bot can't "hook" into the programme's memory, or read the quest data from a file, if you can open your quest log and read the quest description which tells you to kill three pigs and talk to someone or something, a bot can read that as well. As far as I know, there's no convinient way to obfuscate text to be unradable to a bot without turning everything into a CAPTCHA, and we don't want to turn everything into a CAPTCHA, because those are annoying and would be disruptive for the flow of the game.
On your expertise (which i don't really know how expert you are), are there really no way to lock documents into secret? I want to know before i hear your expertise opinions regarding autoscript and stuff, i need to know whether you have experience on the areas you are talking about? like how long have you been working on making games, application or anything related to it? Or if you have working in some anti-hacking company or stuff. Or is it so easy for everyone to become master and expert in anti-hacking with just few years of experience? I am honest since early i said that i don't have any expertise at all, zero expertise regarding this. This is my opinion, probably to become a hacker doesn't need expertise, but to be someone who can prevent hacker, i believe must be someone who really knows how things work.
Otherwise, if there is truly no ways to prevent others to take a peek into our documents, from years ago, all bank and finance company would have been going busted and bankrupt because all of their customers data would have been stolen by hackers. So my logics tells me there must be must some ways. That is why I am asking about your expertise. Or do you think that all of the bank’s customer data is no longer safe because there is no way to keep it safe from hacker? The fact is even though I know, especially bank, is struggling to keep their millions of customer’s data safe, but somehow they managed to do it. This is what I call Hard Cold Fact. Most what you said as hard cold fact sounds like a fact but it is actually because you “think” there is no way to prevent it. So tell me, how are those big companies keep their data safe? But my logic and from what I seen, I can see some company survive to protect their data and information safe eventhough it is requires expert to do this. Even Youtube will lost all of their important client data if there is no way to prevent hacker from stealing their data. I am no expert in this field, but my logic says, this is what I call hard cold fact. Not just a hard cold fact from your own point of view.
My questions,
1. so is there no way for any MMORPG out there to prevent their quests being hacked
2. So there is not even a single way in this whole world to prevent our documents to be safe from any hacker? there is no way to encrypt or save our data to get stolen by others?
"The devs will do with this suggestion that they do with most, look at it, laugh at it, and move on with progressing the game with mostly KMS content."
You might be expertise at programming and stuff, but you are zero in expressing your opinion or ideas. Making opinion and discussion by putting out pressure to others using some words like *laughable, terrible ideas, and stuff" proves that your ability to communicate with others or how to lead of a disccussion into a great ideas with others is zero. What i am trying to do is not to use words that de-moralise others to actually giving ideas. That is why I bring the discussion into Fact, not just opinion. Suggestion is welcome. I believe if you have expertise in programming field, it means you have made a lot of dollars. I suggest you save some of our pocket money to get some classes to help you learn to do better at doing discussion so probably you can get better score than zero.
But other than that, i appreciate the other discussions that you have made. So far only you have actually talk something that i think have a bit in depth and have vibe of expertise. Several others are just saying something that doesn't even touch the skin. So all i can feel the others are just pretending to be expert at programming. I think you have working on programming maybe around at least 5 years or more? Or are you just some student who is still learning about programming? At least I know whether I am talking to someone who is expert in programming or just some green student who think that they are the best expert in this field.
"the best way to kill the hackers is by
1. figuring out how (or what in the code) allows them to identify when a GM is online (I suspect it's a GM command of somekind getting exploited)
2. if you can't patch the code, find a way to exploit it so their program sees a GM online all the time.
3. if you can't exploit it, use the info to your advantage and have a GM account on all servers, all the time, they do not need to be actively doing anything at first but it will lock out the bots for a while before they retire the GM detection program, this shouldn't be too hard if there really is "24/7 GM patrolling" anyway
hurt them with their own protection tool is a good way to lock them out or force them to no longer rely on it. "
Hmmm I appreciate this suggestion, this is not opinion, not facts, but at at least i know that you put a bit of thinking in these suggestions. And i so appreciate suggestions that brings up this discussions into a different level. . Probably might work. So hope the GM will read it. I believe Maplestory/Nexon have their own expert in doing this. I actually thinking that hackers somehow get ahold of GM stuff coz i one time i tried to report a hacker who can move to different channel and at the same time move map in the split second. And it can be that they hold some GM command. I can't prove it so i can't report something i don't have prove at. All i did was going into the channel and the map and suddenly in a split second, the hackers was already in a different map on a different channel. On your 2nd suggestion, is it to try to detect anyone who uses GM command? what do you mean by sees GM online all the time? Or maybe a way so that GM can track down who actually use GM program without autorization? The 3rd suggestion, i don't know if making GM account appear on all server will help solve the hacker problem? Or maybe i understand it wrong. Having GM patrolling 24/7 is hardly possible unless Maplestory Global hires people in another country who have different time. Otherwise they would have to hire someone to work at night.
I believe hacker can read if someone coming into their map and then move them automatically into different map and different channel. Can it actually be prevented?
Are there no way to put it onto some secret code so that without this secret code, hackers will just read something they can't understand without the blue book (i mean without them knowing the secret code). Does maplestory actually giving out everything of all their program as open as in the air for hackers to see? If they have no protection into their program or coding, this is so bad.
And Yeah, I am 100% disagree to make it into CAPTCHA. not even cross my mind to doing it that way.
There is no way, if players can read it cheaters can too.
A botter doesn't NEED to be able to hook into the program memory or to read the .wz file. All a botter needs to essentially do is make a simple script that runs in an infinite loop. Of course, they are likely going to augment their bot by hooking it into the memory, thus allowing them to make more advanced bots. However, instead of hooking into the memory, they can just use "screen readers" to monitor certain values on the screen, such as HP and quest status. With a bit more work they can teach the bot to "read" the quest log right from the screen, allowing the bot to recognice quest requirements et cetera.
Hackers, on the other hand, need to be able to hook into the memory (at least in Maple's case), otherwise they wouldn't be able to achieve feats such as full-map blaze wizard attacks.
There's hardly any way to fight bots in a game like this. Nexon's biggest problem, in my opinion, is that there are falws in the game code, the game engine code, and/or the internal game logic, that can be exploited by hackers to massively boost the efficiency of bots. If those flaws were fixed and/or proper safe guards placed, bots would become far less effective, possibly reducing the incentive to bot.
The important thing to remember is that if you can read something, so can a bot if it has the same priviledges. If the data is accesible to you, it is also accessible to a bot. If you can read a quest log, so can a bot if the bot is programmed to do so. Task automation is not that difficult.
Most of these things are fairly simple. You don't need to be an expert to know that task automation is easy, or to know basics of cyber security.
Please. Looks like you believe everything you disagree with is an opinion, and everything you say is a fact. Because suspiciously enough, that's how it's been so far. You've keep demanding "facts" and yet nothing is a fact to you. It's all "just opinions." And if there's more evidence or explanations, on the off chance that's not an opinion, it's invalid cause that person "hasn't made 10 mmos" or "isn't an expert." This is a suggestions section. Anyone can make a suggestion, no matter how small or how inexperienced in the subject. Do I need a resume of over 30 years of working in every single facet of the making of 10 different MMOs to satisfy you? Because I'm sure that even if that were the case, you'd still find some excuse to invalidate what I'd have to say, no matter how conprehensive or extensive, because it's definitely not going to agree with you.
You clearly don't know this game's GMs and how terrible they are. They copy paste responses, they deny you information, they deny you dialogue to discuss issues like bans, they don't even ban hackers that you report to them in live chat, despite them saying they'll look into it. They don't even play the game. It's questionable if they even read in game reports. People have lost most of their faith in GMs. And you expect that they'll read more than 10% of what people suggest here, let alone implement a decent amount of that? The most they will possibly do is get a good laugh at what a joke this entire thread is if they read it.
Quit trying to act like no one else has any ground to say anything. If anyone, that's you. You're the one attempting to invalidate any argument that doesn't support yours. You're the one acting like yours is the unquestionably superior idea, and that to dare dissent to it is "just opinion." But from what I can tell, there is absolutely no idea that disagrees with yours that you can ever possibly commend as constructive or this mystical substance that is "fact" that everyone but you is devoid of, because you aren't open to criticism.
But who am I to say anything? After all, everything I've said is just an opinion, not a fact.
the fact that you make that comparison merely shows how much understanding you lack.
banks do not make you download a client on to your computer or phone which contains 90% of relevant data that the bank has, to work.
Banks also have huge investments into cyber security and highly advanced crypto algorithms for protecting the data on all their systems, which is in no way comparable to how Maple (or most online games) can or do combat hacking. the closest thing any company has gotten as far as gaming is concerned is with that one really complex anti-piracy that slows your computer down with games that use it.
As far as my qualifications, programming is a hobby of mine, been doing it for about 8 years, mostly cause I like to know how things work which is why I have not pursued a career in it, but I have to say, all that I said in my previous post is very basic information that anyone with basic understanding of programing and a basic understanding of how client based games operate, would know.
as for your 2 questions,
1. no, there is no MMO out there that can prevent you from reading the data but somehow (through magic) the client reads the data. there has to be a way to relay the data to the client, either through files directly relate to the client or through packets of data from the server to the client and if it's going from server to client then you can see the packet using a packet sniffer and on top of that the client needs to know to expect (have a protocol) this data or else the client either ignores the data or a crash is caused, and the hackers are exploiting the client. I mean they could possibly encrypt data in the packets better but since the hackers are just exploiting the client (which contains 90% of the data) they would easily be able to decrypt the packets.
As previously stated, botters do not even need to hook the data from the client, simply having a screen reader would be enough, but they would probably build it into the hacking program due to how the gold farms actually run multiple instances of maple from 1 computer.
2. there are ways to prevent our documents from getting retrieved from hackers, but your files are not available directly from a games client files. if the hackers were able to access every bit of data related to the game from the tools they are using and the methods they are using, everyone account would be hacked and all security would be compromised on nexons servers (which is where this data is kept), that's not the case, and hackers wouldn't be able to access this data with the same methods they use to exploit the client, unless nexon has a data leak somewhere (like the MTS incident)
But just to inform you of how there is no invulnerable system against hacking that can just be thrown into place, I'd also like you to know that even the government gets hacked from time to time, sometimes even with ransom-ware. to prevent hacking vulnerabilities in something like this requires lots of investment in just cyber security and constant updates of the hacking prevention system, much more than any game would be worth.
Now I could talk about how lousy and terribly thought up this idea is, and your lack of understanding or wanting to even take in the information because "lul u r not a gam dev" till the cows come home, but if that's honestly the only reason you are trying to deflect the facts that have been laid out, you should also need to be a game dev before you post an idea, at least get some yeas in of computer science, some coding languages, and develop an app or two before you post another Idea if you want to fight about the critique of it's plausibility and effectiveness.
@Rolls : Because what you said doesn't even touch the skin of anything.
@Sliced :
1. About the Automation on doing quest, even though it will let their char do things aumatically, mostlikely it will act similar to players. Hackers might still gain advantages but not as bad as when they are hacking 1 map while gathering a lot of mobs in 1 spot and kill them simultaneously. But still gain benefit tho lesser.
2. Are you trying to say that actually hacker modified the game code, engine code or internal game logic? Is it possible to track players who does taking advantage/modify the game engine logic?
3. You are talking about breaching into memory. So actually hacker just simply crack maple code, memory and client?
4. Even if the Quests is made to be random of 5-10 quests, can task automation still read it?
@Cataloo
1. So maple actually need to apply Crypto Algorithms,. And apply it into their game client security so that noone can read the game client. But mostlikely it will cost them sumj.
2. So it is actually not impossible but using complex anti-piracy that possibly will slow down maplestory game
3. Hmm all in all, the main trouble itself is the game client is easily cracked, readable and exploited
4. It is still possible if Nexon separate the data which not inside the game client so that hacker cannot steal the information.
Is 4 points i write above what you are trying to say?
I have the feeling the old full map attack mentioned above got patched because there was the blaze wizards were gone for a while only to come back with a thankfully inferior full map attack and not a FMA with some other no-delay stuff.
These are only my observations from my strolls through Herb Town.