[New Users] Please note that all new users need to be approved before posting. This process can take up to 24 hours. Thank you for your patience.
Check out the v.234 Destiny: Homecoming Patch Notes here!
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the Forums Code of Conduct: https://forums.maplestory.nexon.net/discussion/29556/code-of-conducts

Nexon should buff map spawns and remove kishin

Comments

  • DFDFDDFDFD
    Reactions: 1,760
    Posts: 218
    Member
    edited September 2018
    if that's what you wanna make of it

    That's what I make of it because that's the only solution you brought up.
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
    Reactions: 8,955
    Posts: 2,669
    Member
    edited September 2018
    DFDFD wrote: »
    Lyeden wrote: »
    ). Why does it Always have to be kishin tho? Why not remove frenzy? Frenzy is way better then kishin and is P2W, While Kanna players Struggle to keep up in the current game.

    they wont remove a big money winning item like frenzy

    even if it wouldnt get removed, it should be more achievable. because atm it costs about 1500b~ mesos i guess?
    and grinding a kanna and running a second pc takes pretty much time, and ofc another computer.

    You can Always party up with a kanna, Yes party play is still a thing, people should be encouraged to play in a party but its nexon's fault for creating the meta we've been in for the longest time so i get you also want increased spawn for yourself, but if we gonna keep comparing classes illium basicaly has a instant full map clear in most maps, so did Lumi before they got nerfed (they probably were a bit too harst on Lumi tho), Bishop has a 70% exp buff, Demon avenger has 500k HP, Nightlord can Nuke bosses faster then Nexon can come up with another Kanna nerf (They very fast boi :D ), We souldnt compare classes, because if we keep doing that, noone will be able to enjoy this game, If you want Kishin so bad try maining a Kanna, but noone thinks to themselves why not main kanna? Because Kanna is a bad class with or without kishin Kanna will Always be lackluster in every other department.


    Again long story short: Every class is good at a certain thing and if you are jealous of a certain class because of a certain skill, try playing that class (i also have been guilty of making this assumption before) And by playing i don't mean train it to140 or 200 for a legion mule, Full on main it

    So your solution to this toxic game meta is that everyone should switch to Kanna mains?

    since when does "party with a kanna" translate to "main a kanna"
    Lyeden
  • LyedenLyeden
    Reactions: 1,510
    Posts: 61
    Member
    edited September 2018
    Maple pretty much became a solo game grinding wise, so I don't see any point of party playing though. I dont even think that anyone does that though..
    Anyways they will handle the situation smh later on I hope.
  • DFDFDDFDFD
    Reactions: 1,760
    Posts: 218
    Member
    edited September 2018
    DFDFD wrote: »
    Lyeden wrote: »
    ). Why does it Always have to be kishin tho? Why not remove frenzy? Frenzy is way better then kishin and is P2W, While Kanna players Struggle to keep up in the current game.

    they wont remove a big money winning item like frenzy

    even if it wouldnt get removed, it should be more achievable. because atm it costs about 1500b~ mesos i guess?
    and grinding a kanna and running a second pc takes pretty much time, and ofc another computer.

    You can Always party up with a kanna, Yes party play is still a thing, people should be encouraged to play in a party but its nexon's fault for creating the meta we've been in for the longest time so i get you also want increased spawn for yourself, but if we gonna keep comparing classes illium basicaly has a instant full map clear in most maps, so did Lumi before they got nerfed (they probably were a bit too harst on Lumi tho), Bishop has a 70% exp buff, Demon avenger has 500k HP, Nightlord can Nuke bosses faster then Nexon can come up with another Kanna nerf (They very fast boi :D ), We souldnt compare classes, because if we keep doing that, noone will be able to enjoy this game, If you want Kishin so bad try maining a Kanna, but noone thinks to themselves why not main kanna? Because Kanna is a bad class with or without kishin Kanna will Always be lackluster in every other department.


    Again long story short: Every class is good at a certain thing and if you are jealous of a certain class because of a certain skill, try playing that class (i also have been guilty of making this assumption before) And by playing i don't mean train it to140 or 200 for a legion mule, Full on main it

    So your solution to this toxic game meta is that everyone should switch to Kanna mains?

    since when does "party with a kanna" translate to "main a kanna"

    Since I actually finished reading her comment.
    "Party with a kanna" isn't a feasible solution anymore, not after they made the end-game purely drop dependent.
    Lyeden
  • DaxterbeerDaxterbeer
    Reactions: 6,920
    Posts: 997
    Member
    edited September 2018
    Kanna is currently weak in terms of DPS and is just a service to increase the spawn of a map. Boosting current maps spawns is also something that can be done to keep players moving forward than staying regions behind in Arcane River. If Kishin's spawn enhancing properties were removed, the skill can be designed as a DPS skill. I know buffing its damage is something we can do, but I was also thinking about making it a multi hit skill or possibly making the skill hitbox larger and attack interval faster. I am not a Kanna main, but I noticed some recurring terms in Kanna's skills and I was thinking a mechanic can be made from these.

    Aside from double turrets, another useful is a pair of summons that attack alongside Kanna at different intervals, effectively adding more lines at the user's location (some might prefer turrets over summons and I do agree some scenarios are good for leaving something parked.) The same could be done with Demon's Fury where Demon's Fury can be a summon that attacks with Kanna along with Kish. Demon Fury could also provide a final damage boost and attack speed boost to Kishin since both skills are classified as Demons.

    There are also Spirits-based skills mentioned in Rock Yaksha, Clay Yaksha which are Earth-based spirits along with Spirit Corral, a fox spirit attack. I forgot Monkey Spirits (OOF.) I was thinking about a system where skill points invested in Spirit-based skills passively boost pre-existing spirit skills and Demon skills do the same for Demon skills. Demons would be summoned skills, and Spirit-based will be attacks. The same could be applied to Shikigami Charm, Vanquisher Charm and Nimbus Curse (I decided to add Nimbus Curse since their are not enough charms to make charms category and a magic category is more suited)

    I don't think it was coincidence that some skills were classified as charms, demons and spirits. It was as though they were suppose to be grouped and skills in the same group strengthen one another. We have Haunting, Demon, Spirits and Magic as skill categories and Haunting seems to following the trend mentioned above. It would make sense if the other skills had a "family" system.

    I hope these skill changes would make Kanna more reliable as a hard hitter than a class whose sole purpose is to act as a spawn booster or buff mule.


  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
    Reactions: 8,955
    Posts: 2,669
    Member
    edited September 2018
    Given the fact that Haku's Blessing nerf and Hayato's nerf came from TMS/CMS, if those regions or JMS make the changes to kishin, GMS may very well copy + paste the changes. Other than that, it may not matter how much you guys cry about wanting kishin out the game.


    My question is exactly what triggered this sudden outcry.

  • bumbertyrbumbertyr
    Reactions: 6,400
    Posts: 1,167
    Nexon
    edited September 2018
    If those regions or JMS make the changes to kishin, GMS may very well copy + paste the changes.

    Actually, Jms already received a change to the skill. they have a version of Kishin that requires stacking multiple kishin's on the map to obtain a faster respawn effect which was put in about 2 years ago.

    Here's a reddit thread about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Maplestory/comments/47nrv0/rip_kishin_in_jms/
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
    Reactions: 8,955
    Posts: 2,669
    Member
    edited September 2018
    bumbertyr wrote: »
    If those regions or JMS make the changes to kishin, GMS may very well copy + paste the changes.

    Actually, Jms already received a change to the skill. they have a version of Kishin that requires stacking multiple kishin's on the map to obtain a faster respawn effect which was put in about 2 years ago.

    Here's a reddit thread about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Maplestory/comments/47nrv0/rip_kishin_in_jms/

    This wouldn't be a wise move to bring over to GMS, in my opinion, because of how crafty GMS players are. Given that GMS players are more willing to break ToS to get a little more convenience out of gameplay. I.E use of Virtual Machines etc


    My hypothesis regarding this sudden outcry is that it's a group of players that play or played unofficial (illegal) versions of the client and want changes to be made to the official one to be more like those.

    Cause personally, the only difference in training I see using a kanna is when I'm training characters under 150.
  • DaxterbeerDaxterbeer
    Reactions: 6,920
    Posts: 997
    Member
    edited September 2018
    bumbertyr wrote: »
    If those regions or JMS make the changes to kishin, GMS may very well copy + paste the changes.

    Actually, Jms already received a change to the skill. they have a version of Kishin that requires stacking multiple kishin's on the map to obtain a faster respawn effect which was put in about 2 years ago.

    Here's a reddit thread about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Maplestory/comments/47nrv0/rip_kishin_in_jms/

    This wouldn't be a wise move to bring over to GMS, in my opinion, because of how crafty GMS players are. Given that GMS players are more willing to break ToS to get a little more convenience out of gameplay. I.E use of Virtual Machines etc


    My hypothesis regarding this sudden outcry is that it's a group of players that play or played unofficial (illegal) versions of the client and want changes to be made to the official one to be more like those.

    Cause personally, the only difference in training I see using a kanna is when I'm training characters under 150.

    You are saying that a nerfed Kishin would promote more illegal activities to run more Kannas just to stack Kishin have the old effect? If Kishin had no enhancing effects and was purely an attack skill, the though of multi-clienting Kannas for self mule use will be pointless. This however doesn't stop the farming bots using Kanna as their primary botting character (maybe it is because KMS doesn't spend time updating non-KMS classes or patching hacks/exploits in them.)

    @Bumbertyr

    You know the hacking movements Kannas use when they are farming around the map? The system should have detection of the bots' ability to "float" above the ground and their ability to spam Monkey Spirits and Shikigami Charm at impossible intervals.

  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
    Reactions: 8,955
    Posts: 2,669
    Member
    edited September 2018
    Daxterbeer wrote: »
    bumbertyr wrote: »
    If those regions or JMS make the changes to kishin, GMS may very well copy + paste the changes.

    Actually, Jms already received a change to the skill. they have a version of Kishin that requires stacking multiple kishin's on the map to obtain a faster respawn effect which was put in about 2 years ago.

    Here's a reddit thread about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Maplestory/comments/47nrv0/rip_kishin_in_jms/

    This wouldn't be a wise move to bring over to GMS, in my opinion, because of how crafty GMS players are. Given that GMS players are more willing to break ToS to get a little more convenience out of gameplay. I.E use of Virtual Machines etc


    My hypothesis regarding this sudden outcry is that it's a group of players that play or played unofficial (illegal) versions of the client and want changes to be made to the official one to be more like those.

    Cause personally, the only difference in training I see using a kanna is when I'm training characters under 150.

    You are saying that a nerfed Kishin would promote more illegal activities to run more Kannas just to stack Kishin have the old effect? If Kishin had no enhancing effects and was purely an attack skill, the though of multi-clienting Kannas for self mule use will be pointless. This however doesn't stop the farming bots using Kanna as their primary botting character (maybe it is because KMS doesn't spend time updating non-KMS classes or patching hacks/exploits in them.)

    @Bumbertyr

    You know the hacking movements Kannas use when they are farming around the map? The system should have detection of the bots' ability to "float" above the ground and their ability to spam Monkey Spirits and Shikigami Charm at impossible intervals.

    Im not saying it would promote it, people will find it within themselves to "resort" to it.
    another thing, making Kishin Shoukan into a turret type skill, would make kanna even more lack luster. I know a few Kanna mains that quit after the Haku nerf, I hypothesize a Kishin removal or nerf would be the killing blow to other kanna mains on the fence.


    One upside to this would be the deterrence of botters and how they use Kannas to bot mesos, nodes, and elite rewards. But Bots/hackers are craftier still, if the spawn rate would be increased, it would mean another class would become the "go to" for botters given that they wont need kishin to farm their mesos, nodes and elite rewards. So, it would be square one again.


    So, my conclusion would be that, if Kishin would be removed, there would be no base spawn rate increase, or if it does, it wont be to the extent of Kishin, it would be like the base meso rate increase that happened some time ago, marginal increase. truthfully, that would be a solution to getting rid of bots. remove kishin and leave the spawn rate where it is. So there's no incentive for bots to bot. or make it difficult for them to.

    The problem Nexon is facing is that too many wants and subjective needs are being declared, and they should only try to focus on one at a time to be able to do it right, it takes some time to go over the changes because a marketing plan has to be done for every change, want and "need" being thrown out there. To see if that truly is the best possible route.
  • AKradianAKradian
    Reactions: 39,855
    Posts: 6,268
    Volunteer Forum Moderator, Private Tester
    edited September 2018
    So, my conclusion would be that, if Kishin would be removed, there would be no base spawn rate increase, or if it does, it wont be to the extent of Kishin, it would be like the base meso rate increase that happened some time ago, marginal increase. truthfully, that would be a solution to getting rid of bots. remove kishin and leave the spawn rate where it is. So there's no incentive for bots to bot. or make it difficult for them to.

    There is always an incentive for bots to bot.
    This game has had meso-farming bots since its inception. In fact, I daresay every game has gold-farming bots, to one extent or another.
    The classes they use have changed over time, that's all.
    My hypothesis regarding this sudden outcry is that it's a group of players that play or played unofficial (illegal) versions of the client and want changes to be made to the official one to be more like those.

    Please don't make baseless accusations.
    The outcry is from players who
    - are in Reboot and are sick and tired of meso-farming on Kanna instead of playing their main, and/or
    - don't have a second computer to Kishin themselves (but have experienced training with Kishin through a friend's help, or even just heard from everybody how much better it is), and/or
    - don't want to have to level/leech their Kishin mule Kanna to 225 (Arcana), 235 (Esfera), and now 255 and beyond, just so they can continue using it in high-level areas.
    Cause personally, the only difference in training I see using a kanna is when I'm training characters under 150.

    You must be doing something wrong.
    No matter what level and what map you use, Kishin makes it so there are more enemies within range of your attack skills. So unless you train using a single-target skill, you always gain exp faster in a Kishin'ed map.
    DFDFDLyeden
  • SwordStakerSwordStaker
    Reactions: 1,525
    Posts: 67
    Member
    edited September 2018
    I would like to know where this outcry for Kishin came from. Last I checked people loved the skill. If someone is complaining about it in Reboot they seriously need to get a life. Reboot has no trading, no economy and its all self grinding. If you weren't using a Kanna to farm mesos you would use another class. Be thankful you even have the option to use Kishin. That's what it is, an OPTION. Leave Kanna's alone jfc.
    Dodoch
  • LotheapLotheap
    Reactions: 310
    Posts: 13
    Member
    edited September 2018
    kishin is 1.7x amount of mobs at 2sec spawn? without it it'll be 5sec spawn.
    so kishin is giving 1.7*5/2 = up to 4.25x buff to everything, multiplicative to everything else, provided you kill things fast enough.
    leeching a kanna who steals 40% of your xp and meso is still up to 2.55x buff, with up to the full 4.25x drop rate.

    removing it requires 4x buff to xp, drop and meso to be the same as of now (possibly making it easier for lesser-mobbing classes).

    windows has a built-in virtual machine function called hyper-v, if hyper-v is illegal does that means windows is XD
  • LotheapLotheap
    Reactions: 310
    Posts: 13
    Member
    edited September 2018
    I would like to know where this outcry for Kishin came from.
    maybe the upcoming oct/nov balance patch, which should touch on jett/beast/kanna unless the devs are seriously ignorant.
    all the change should be planned already, and given nexon's history it's fairly unlikely to be anything good.

    if you play jett and beast you already hate yourself so no one cares, but if the kanna change is following nexon's standard then we are all fked.
    Lyeden
  • ElaieElaie
    Reactions: 585
    Posts: 27
    Member
    edited September 2018
    bumbertyr wrote: »
    If those regions or JMS make the changes to kishin, GMS may very well copy + paste the changes.

    Actually, Jms already received a change to the skill. they have a version of Kishin that requires stacking multiple kishin's on the map to obtain a faster respawn effect which was put in about 2 years ago.

    Here's a reddit thread about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Maplestory/comments/47nrv0/rip_kishin_in_jms/

    Since nobody knows when or if we will get a nerf at all. I speak for the community as a whole on this; Please communicate with us if any nerf is ever going to be applied to it. Even just a maple memo about talking to us about the situation and what Nexon plans to do. We really want to know what exactly the future for kishin is whenever possible.

    Currently, lots of us are on edge and feel left in the dark. Especially since we didn't get an answer from Arwoo about asking the devs about it yet.

    I just figure if we all know what's going to happen sooner, we can all have time to accept fate beforehand.
    LotheapLyeden
  • SuperJonicSuperJonic
    Reactions: 1,190
    Posts: 50
    Member
    edited September 2018
    I would like to see kanna's getting a bit more....buff than a kishin remove. But at the same time, I wish the kanna bots were gone. Just throwing it out there.
  • UserRedUserRed
    Reactions: 1,590
    Posts: 101
    Member
    edited September 2018
    How about we just nerf Kishin instead of removing it entirely, but buff spawn rate accordingly so that using Kishin would get the same results as right now? Win win, people with Frenzy/Kishin mules don't lose months of work and noobs with no Kishin mules get some benefit.
    Lyeden
  • SorrowSorrow
    Reactions: 2,780
    Posts: 314
    Member, Private Tester
    edited September 2018
    Suggestion 1: Increase current spawn rate by 30% and reduce Kishin/Frenzy Totem's spawn rate by xx% rather than removing it.
    Suggestion 2: Come out with a Node that increases spawn rate while still being slightly inferior to Kishin, e.g. 40% spawn rate.
    Lyeden
  • DFDFDDFDFD
    Reactions: 1,760
    Posts: 218
    Member
    edited September 2018
    I would like to know where this outcry for Kishin came from. Last I checked people loved the skill. If someone is complaining about it in Reboot they seriously need to get a life. Reboot has no trading, no economy and its all self grinding. If you weren't using a Kanna to farm mesos you would use another class. Be thankful you even have the option to use Kishin. That's what it is, an OPTION. Leave Kanna's alone jfc.

    You've managed to completely miss the point.

    Currently-
    -people have to make a dedicated Kanna to farm meso instead of simply farming on their mains
    - people have to log on to a second computer just so they can Kish themselves while training, otherwise get only a third of the EXP and drops.

    THIS is where the outcry is coming from, not some wild conspiracy theory you may have come up with.

    Nobody is asking to destory Kanna as a character, the power of the class doesn't lie in Kishin's spawn rate alone, and adjustments can easily be made to compensate for its removal. The only change we're asking is to fix the current and extremely unhealthy game meta and replace it with one that is better for almost everyone. So I don't get exactly what you're so outraged about. I'm guessing it's because you don't play on Reboot and are too selfish to care.

    My hypothesis regarding this sudden outcry is that it's a group of players that play or played unofficial (illegal) versions of the client and want changes to be made to the official one to be more like those.

    Major facepalm
    Lyeden
  • ThatGuyZennyThatGuyZenny
    Reactions: 1,300
    Posts: 35
    Member, Private Tester
    edited September 2018
    Appearantly Reboot is the only server now…… i give up, this guy is just too dense