[New Users] Please note that all new users need to be approved before posting. This process can take up to 24 hours. Thank you for your patience.
Check out the v.233 Destiny: Remastered Patch Notes here!
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the Forums Code of Conduct: https://forums.maplestory.nexon.net/discussion/29556/code-of-conducts

Sales Tax.

Comments

  • darikdarik
    Reactions: 3,150
    Posts: 601
    Member
    edited September 2019
    darik wrote: »
    Dude they mentioned it on the note, DUE TO LEGAL REASONS WE ARE NOW OBLIED TO ADD A TAX, wtf do u want to tell u? The exact law and all that ? Just search it for urself, dont expect to be given everything in life , do a SMALL effort and search it ffs...

    Yes, they should be telling users exactly what laws they are complying with, if anything has changed.

    If a random guy stopped you on the street and said for "legal reasons" he has to check your belongings, do you just assume he's right?

    No but i check y hes saying that by myself and until its clear the reason i dont let him/her check them
  • AKradianAKradian
    Reactions: 39,815
    Posts: 6,244
    Volunteer Forum Moderator, Private Tester
    edited September 2019
    Could it not be classified as an item that is used to exchange with other items? Technically everything can be considered currency.
    If this were the case, we would pay taxes for the KK card when we purchase them from a local retailer. In which case Nexon wouldn't need to develop a system where they award less NX based on local taxes, because taxes would already be paid at the state level to the retailer. Since we do not pay taxes at the state level at a retailer when we purchase the card, they are clearly classified as gift cards, not items. At best one could try and argue that the act of redeeming the code in exchange for the NX is the point at which the gift card is exchanged for an item, but then the problem is that the advertising is now false, because you do not receive the quantity of the item listed on the package, and since NX is not a legal tender of which one could pay taxes, it makes no sense to award less NX.

    Rather Nexon should simply re-evaluate the value of NX with respect to the tender used, award the same NX, and pay the taxes as normal. (meaning items in the cash shop might cost 100 more NX per 1k nx or something, depending on where you live, but you get the exact amount of NX listed on the card)

    Hopefully that makes sense.

    Going by the pictures on the internet (I am thousands of miles away from any place that sells physical Karma Koins), there is no quantity of NX listed on a Karma Koin card. Only a dollar value. So there is no false advertising.

    Consider a store that sells fabric by the yard. The sign at the store says $1 per yard. And yet, if you have $10, you can't buy 10 yards of fabric, because of tax. This is not false advertising, it is the way price display laws work in the USA. (Unlike some other countries that require stores to display the price including tax). Note that it doesn't matter whether your $10 are in cash, or credit card, or a gift card purchased in this same store. They all give the same amount of fabric for the same amount of dollars deducted. Is the fabric a legal tender of which one should pay taxes?

    Karma Koin is a gift card, same as a gift card for the fabric store. The NX is the merchandise that you are buying. The "fabric". According to Nexon, it's not a currency. It's like Monopoly money. (Note that this is not a new definition they made up for this tax issue. This is what protects their games' cash shop random reward mechanisms from being subject to gambling laws. But that's a separate topic.) At the point where you are using Karma Koin to pay for NX, that payment is being taxed, and your $10 Karma Koin card is not enough to cover both the payment and the tax for 10 "yards" of NX. So you have to settle for less.
  • L4d2jpnL4d2jpn
    Reactions: 1,860
    Posts: 199
    Member, Private Tester
    edited September 2019
    Shouldn't they just add the taxes to the in-game item prices?....

    I don't know about you guys but I'd feel less ripped off by looking at a slight price hike with the understanding that they taxed the virtual items versus redeeming a gift card and visually receiving less.

    This way you can just charge a static tax with the justification that you're purchasing items from nexon's hq location (so assumingly CA tax rate).
  • DienstagDienstag
    Reactions: 820
    Posts: 22
    Member
    edited September 2019
    1 week's notice? awesome.
    MageOfBattlesFuhreak
  • GenkaiX1GenkaiX1
    Reactions: 840
    Posts: 43
    Member
    edited September 2019
    Why don't they lower NX rates to compensate? A gachopon ticket should no longer cost 1000k NX when I'm no longer getting 1K for $1.
  • TwilightHimeTwilightHime
    Reactions: 945
    Posts: 94
    Member
    edited September 2019
    At best one could try and argue that the act of redeeming the code in exchange for the NX is the point at which the gift card is exchanged for an item, but then the problem is that the advertising is now false, because you do not receive the quantity of the item listed on the package, and since NX is not a legal tender of which one could pay taxes, it makes no sense to award less NX.

    Rather Nexon should simply re-evaluate the value of NX with respect to the tender used, award the same NX, and pay the taxes as normal. (meaning items in the cash shop might cost 100 more NX per 1k nx or something, depending on where you live, but you get the exact amount of NX listed on the card)

    Yes, that would be my argument, that NX is an item which you purchase with cash (paypal/credit/karma koin/etc), and therefore a taxable transaction. I don't use karma koin, but i'm assuming If you load $100 onto a karma koin card, your card has $100 worth of legal tender?

    They're probably paying tax on paypal/credit transactions. If they start charging NX at the cash shop level, they'd be double-taxing paypal/credit users. Nexon apparently has already thought about this and distinguishes NX Credit from NX Prepaid, so they could just apply NX tax on NX Prepaid purchases.

    But then you'd get people complaining "why do I have to pay more NX for the same item just because I'm using prepaid cards etc etc" and it's the same issue again just under a different context. Plus do you really trust Nexon to implement NX tax properly and make sure that it still works after every patch? Better to just change how much NX you're getting which should be much less complex.
  • StarryKnightStarryKnight
    Reactions: 1,725
    Posts: 118
    Member
    edited September 2019
    AKradian wrote: »
    here is no quantity of NX listed on a Karma Koin card. Only a dollar value. So there is no false advertising. - snip -
    It seems you're correct, I checked my local retailer and the Nexon cards no longer show the NX. I used to buy gift cards a long time ago, and they always had the NX value listed on the package. Now it seems they only show a dollar amount, which does avoid any potential issue with respect to advertising. Thanks for catching that.

    The ones I used to purchase looked like these.
  • WONDERGUYWONDERGUY
    Reactions: 3,170
    Posts: 503
    Member
    edited September 2019
    ceo Kim knew about restrction
    btw the way nexon respond its stuborn again... like when they just locked countrys that ban lootbox instead of make changes

    if nexon did care for their leftover players that are loyal and still buy nx, they could add that %tax as "bonus" nx so players wont see change
    make it fixed rate for all nx;money
    (its unfair now to get difrently taxed cus your state )
    someone to get more someone less for the same amount of money in allready hard p2w gamble system good luck nexon
  • AKradianAKradian
    Reactions: 39,815
    Posts: 6,244
    Volunteer Forum Moderator, Private Tester
    edited September 2019
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    ceo Kim knew about restrction
    btw the way nexon respond its stuborn again... like when they just locked countrys that ban lootbox instead of make changes

    if nexon did care for their leftover players that are loyal and still buy nx, they could add that %tax as "bonus" nx so players wont see change
    make it fixed rate for all nx;money
    (its unfair now to get difrently taxed cus your state )
    someone to get more someone less for the same amount of money in allready hard p2w gamble system good luck nexon

    It's not unfair, it's just how things work in this world of countries and states making their own taxes, duties, and tariffs.
    If you and your friend from another state both order the same book from Amazon, with the same price tag, you might end up paying different amounts because of taxes.
    And it's not just the internet, either. If you decide to buy that book at a physical Barnes&Noble bookstore, you'll still pay a different amount, despite the same price being printed on the book, because of different taxes.

    It's true that Nexon could, if they wanted to, pay the tax out of their own pocket, instead of charging customers for it the way all businesses do. But we can't demand such generosity.
  • WONDERGUYWONDERGUY
    Reactions: 3,170
    Posts: 503
    Member
    edited September 2019
    AKradian wrote: »
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    ceo Kim knew about restrction
    btw the way nexon respond its stuborn again... like when they just locked countrys that ban lootbox instead of make changes

    if nexon did care for their leftover players that are loyal and still buy nx, they could add that %tax as "bonus" nx so players wont see change
    make it fixed rate for all nx;money
    (its unfair now to get difrently taxed cus your state )
    someone to get more someone less for the same amount of money in allready hard p2w gamble system good luck nexon

    It's not unfair, it's just how things work in this world of countries and states making their own taxes, duties, and tariffs.
    If you and your friend from another state both order the same book from Amazon, with the same price tag, you might end up paying different amounts because of taxes.
    And it's not just the internet, either. If you decide to buy that book at a physical Barnes&Noble bookstore, you'll still pay a different amount, despite the same price being printed on the book, because of different taxes.

    It's true that Nexon could, if they wanted to, pay the tax out of their own pocket, instead of charging customers for it the way all businesses do. But we can't demand such generosity.

    but this is not like your example
    they can do tax internally NX cash its virtual and can be generated/changed as nexon want
    while in your example the book and other things are all allready made ( money invest + profit ) cant change eazy so they are forced to tax after so they can keep the price but even those find way to adjust those that pay tax with small gifts

    for example with nexon
    nexon sells 1000 nx for 1$
    now x player in x country gets 10% tax
    they can offer that person 1100nx for his 1dollar and 10cents

    they wont lose money but they are going to make all satisfied for their money instead of searching to avoid that tax or state with lowest %

    but yea why genrate more nx for your players to feel good same as all other when you can give them less and adict more on lootbox
  • TwilightHimeTwilightHime
    Reactions: 945
    Posts: 94
    Member
    edited September 2019
    AKradian wrote: »
    It's true that Nexon could, if they wanted to, pay the tax out of their own pocket, instead of charging customers for it the way all businesses do. But we can't demand such generosity.

    Players could demand such generosity. After all, if players stop purchasing NX, then nexon doesn't make money.
    WONDERGUY
  • AKradianAKradian
    Reactions: 39,815
    Posts: 6,244
    Volunteer Forum Moderator, Private Tester
    edited September 2019
    AKradian wrote: »
    It's true that Nexon could, if they wanted to, pay the tax out of their own pocket, instead of charging customers for it the way all businesses do. But we can't demand such generosity.

    Players could demand such generosity. After all, if players stop purchasing NX, then nexon doesn't make money.

    Well, yes. But that applies to every other demand players have made over the years. It doesn't make them all justified.
    State sales tax is a tax on the residents of the state, not on the businesses selling to them. Nexon is just acting as a tax collector for your state. That is why Nexon is required by law to give e.g. New York the tax from the purchases of New York residents, and give Texas the tax from purchases of Texas residents (and why they can't "just tax everyone the California rate" as some here suggested). It's unreasonable to expect the tax collector to pay your taxes out of his own pocket.

    Obviously, if sales plummet, the company will need to think about ways to improve them. Maybe they'll give bonus NX, maybe they'll put Frenzy back in Marvel, maybe they'll raise prices, maybe they'll lower prices... Who knows?
  • AggraphineAggraphine
    Reactions: 19,405
    Posts: 3,553
    Member
    edited September 2019
    AKradian wrote: »
    AKradian wrote: »
    It's true that Nexon could, if they wanted to, pay the tax out of their own pocket, instead of charging customers for it the way all businesses do. But we can't demand such generosity.

    Players could demand such generosity. After all, if players stop purchasing NX, then nexon doesn't make money.

    Well, yes. But that applies to every other demand players have made over the years. It doesn't make them all justified.
    State sales tax is a tax on the residents of the state, not on the businesses selling to them. Nexon is just acting as a tax collector for your state. That is why Nexon is required by law to give e.g. New York the tax from the purchases of New York residents, and give Texas the tax from purchases of Texas residents (and why they can't "just tax everyone the California rate" as some here suggested). It's unreasonable to expect the tax collector to pay your taxes out of his own pocket.

    Also worth pointing out, some states don't charge a sales tax at all. It's all a damn mess, and is really something that should be handled at the federal level instead of having a hodgepodge of 50 different things to keep track of.
  • PlaySpencerPlaySpencer
    Reactions: 735
    Posts: 16
    Member
    edited September 2019
    GenkaiX1 wrote: »
    Why don't they lower NX rates to compensate? A gachopon ticket should no longer cost 1000k NX when I'm no longer getting 1K for $1.

    Voice of reason mate. Don't they "own" NX. I also think think they created NX... I don't think NX is regulated by the government.... Shouldn't Nexon control what the price of NX is? If the tax for a really basic example comes out to 60cents in one state. Why could they not lower the price to offset it and make it still only cost 10$. If one state has a sales tax 30cent, again why not offset it in thats state so it cost 10$. If that's too complicated in legal terms why can't you lower the amount in the cash shops to adjust for the lost credit.

    I don't want to point out other games like... literally every other game.. that gives you bonus credit for higher amounts spent... I think that has to do with tax offsets/incentives as well, But who knows!

    But in all seriousness, it's to bad a "fake" item/clothing" in a virtual game that can be bought with a "fake" virutal currency CANNOT be changed by those who make said fake thing but instead...
    Pass that cost off to the consumer! <~ as an Economist would say.
    WONDERGUY
  • PetalmagicPetalmagic
    Reactions: 7,660
    Posts: 1,572
    Member
    edited September 2019
    A little late to this party, but strangely enough...my store already charges a tax when you buy NX (comes up to $10.91 or so if I recall...been a while since I bought NX in store) so...I get double charged, in theory :T Yeaah that makes me...sad.
  • GenkaiX1GenkaiX1
    Reactions: 840
    Posts: 43
    Member
    edited October 2019
    Did anyone else not get charged sales tax when they bought NX online today? My screen just showed 30K NX for $30 and my state definitely isn't sales tax free.
  • hyacahyaca
    Reactions: 950
    Posts: 71
    Member
    edited October 2019
    Akradian, if I recall correctly this was discussed years ago. It is illegal to tax in-game currency.
  • AKradianAKradian
    Reactions: 39,815
    Posts: 6,244
    Volunteer Forum Moderator, Private Tester
    edited October 2019
    hyaca wrote: »
    Akradian, if I recall correctly this was discussed years ago. It is illegal to tax in-game currency.

    It's illegal to tax the game currency cards - or any gift cards - when you sell them (e.g., CVS selling a Karma Koin).
    It's not illegal to tax the game currency - or store credit in the case of a gift card - when you redeem them. In fact, it is required to do so (for certain states).

    If you think otherwise, feel free to sue Nexon. And Riot Games too, while you're at it, since they're doing the same thing.
  • hyacahyaca
    Reactions: 950
    Posts: 71
    Member
    edited October 2019
    AKradian wrote: »
    hyaca wrote: »
    Akradian, if I recall correctly this was discussed years ago. It is illegal to tax in-game currency.

    It's illegal to tax the game currency cards - or any gift cards - when you sell them (e.g., CVS selling a Karma Koin).
    It's not illegal to tax the game currency - or store credit in the case of a gift card - when you redeem them. In fact, it is required to do so (for certain states).

    If you think otherwise, feel free to sue Nexon. And Riot Games too, while you're at it, since they're doing the same thing.

    I don't think nexon is at fault at all. Certain states thought up the idea to tax ingame currency: e.g. meso, and it was not approved back then. I guess you could count nx as ingame currency -(Although it would have to be converted to maple points first).
  • Imatank5Imatank5
    Post: 1
    Member
    Anyone Else experiencing issues when trying to redeem KarmaKoin. It wont even give me a "Checkout" Option after selecting the taxed amount im trying to redeem...25k