нσяιƶεη

Fuhreak wrote: »

нσяιƶεη wrote: »

[...]

For future reference, I wouldn't throw out any items before you know for sure what they are.

Meh, hardly matters though. It was a really dopey looking one, would have tossed even if I knew what it was/did.

Fuhreak wrote: »

Converting data isn't the hard part. The harder part is making sure the new system CAN use the old data (or else conversion is required) or if that isn't possible, making sure no oversights are taken with the old database and that conversion is 100% successful and no errors are made.
They only get one shot if they go the conversion route. Because any additional changes beyond the initial conversion will affect a LIVE COPY.
Making sure this isn't the case will take time.

No, what do you mean "they only get one shot if they go the conversion route." League of Legend's client is still riddled with bugs, people are still complaining that it's slower than the Legacy client, and people are constantly talking about them on League Boards or Reddit. Even a company as massive as Riot is having problems with releasing a perfect client, you think anyone expects Maplestory to do the same? No one expects perfect software from anybody. That's why they have bug fixes and patch notes. Is Maplestory perfect right now? Are there no errors in the code? The game is riddled with them because the current programming method is dated and amateurish in organization and execution. The point is to constantly improve, to constantly adapt. Maplestory is taking very, very minor steps in comparison to other games or even basic standards, it's why their software is still incredibly slow and dated.

Just an FYI, it's been 3 years since the release of League of Legend's Legacy client and they are still updating to fix bugs/slow programming. It just goes to show that it's a process, a process Maplestory isn't willing to take.

It depends on how deeply the code is affected to get the improvements you want. It could be very deep in the code meaning that it will break almost everything.
Unless it was programmed with modularity in mind, any change will most likely break a lot if not all functions.
The reason such a change was easier for LoL is that they keep their "client" (Launcher) separate from the actual game itself. (IE: It's a modular system)

I've stated time and time again that I know this will be a difficult process. Exactly to what extent, I'm not aware, but I am certain that it will take much time, money, and effort to do. New systems don't just pop up like that, everything needs to be done by a skilled development team with a coordinator. I'm more upset that they haven't taken more major steps toward a properly functioning game, when that is what it truly needs, and have stuck to these 600+ bug fixes for years. If they'd properly updated the system as the years passed, this problem would not have been as big as it is now.

Coding in a work environment and by yourself are two completely separate beasts. That gap you imagine from just a year of a class to professional coding, that's the gap between coding alone and coding on a team, professionally or not.
The larger the project the more those extra team members have to be coordinated to not mess each other up.

Yes, as I've stated, there is a job for that... it's called a program coordinator. They make decent money and handle everything from budget to work hours to the assignment and distribution of tasks. While it's obvious to you and me that I'm no professional, the point is that they are. They know how to work with other development workers, it's what they've been doing for years.

It's not an impossible task, no. But again, I don't think you know just how much you're asking Nexon to bite off here.
Publishers are likely to decline these types of things. It takes such a long time and is such a massive undertaking that a publisher usually isn't willing to put up with it.
Even if Nexon wanted to do this, when I say it might take longer than a year, I completely mean that.

Seriously? I've already stated that it's hard to respect someone that doesn't even try and you've literally just given me more reason to not respect them. Every one of your arguments are about how it is "likely" or "probably" when the state of the game is as big a mess as it is.

During this time when the programming is happening, you're displacing several teams as well. Artists, Musicians, Scenario Writers, Designers... basically anyone who isn't a programmer is most likely going to be displaced (Forced to work on a different team), fired (easier to replace low level drones than keep them around) or forced to go onto leave, if that be unpaid or otherwise.
This means a lot of people are going to look for other jobs and may never return to the company.
Nexon (Nor any company) most likely isn't going to pay them to sit on their asses all day. It's actually more of a risk to attempt something like this and if not handled correctly, can actually kill a game.

You don't seem to realize that companies have different departments, yes? You have a team that handles the software, a team for music, a team for storylines, character design, artwork, balancing, etc. They aren't all in one department, that's completely inefficient and there's no way a single person can be fluent in every part of a game's needs. Their development team will likely (not sure how large the team is) be overwhelmed with such a task so Maplestory has the completely obvious option of hiring private contractors. Their contracts can be made for them to be hired for as long as it takes to complete the new system, it's not a rare thing. There are more freelance programmers than there are full-time.

I "berate you" because in my eyes, you ARE making light of what needs to be done here.

Sigh. Whatever dude. I've stated multiple times that I know that it won't be easy, that it will take much time, effort, money, that it will take initiative... but yep. I'm "making light of what needs to be done."

Fuhreak wrote: »

You sum it up nicely here. This is why I again say, you don't understand the scope of what you ask for.
You are asking for an entirely new engine to be developed. While also still working with all the old content.
This is such a huge undertaking and why the age of the game absolutely DOES matter. MapleStory has a decade and a half of content that would have to work with this new engine.

I don't see why you have to make the old content work with the new content. That's just making an unnecessary addition to the problem. Making the old content work with new content would be difficult, especially if getting the old code to respond to the new code is tricky. All you have to do is rewrite them in the new software- I say "All you have to do," but I realize it would hardly be that easy. However, it would likely be much more straightforward than having to go through loops in trying to figure out a way to make the relationship work between the old and new. Yes, it will be a lot of effort but in terms of potential benefits? It could go quite a long way.

Not only this, but you have to make sure this new engine supports the old outdated files or has a conversion method for those old files into the new files.
These old files being things that are not easily converted like image files, but rather complex systems like databases (IE: Player data)
Most likely this kind of undertaking would take years and meanwhile Nexon still has to support the current game.
It's not the most feasible thing to do, and to suggest that "It's either this or they don't care at all" is beyond ignorant.

While I don't think it would take years, converting player data from the old to new system would be admittedly difficult. This is one of the few places where simply rewriting the code wouldn't work and you'd need a conversion method. I'm not sure if you said "years" because you thought they'd have to individually transfer player account data, but it would be far faster and more efficient if they made a sort of [item_xxxx](old system) = [item_zzzz](new system). Since they'd already be writing the code for the new system, all it would need is a proper conversion method. I realize that this would add a step in computing, for example: you press 'Z' to pick up a snail shell. The system would read the pick up command for: [item_xxxx], [item_xxxx] = [item_zzzz], a two-step process instead of simply a pick up command for [item_zzzz].

This is going on the assumption that they can't just simply reference from the old system. When League of Legends redid their client, they didn't just dump every single thing in favor of the new. I can still see some of the same functions that existed in the Legacy client (old client) in the current client. What they did was restructure/add new functions and basically modernize the client so that they could set "a strong foundation... [to] stand for years to come"- as they so put it. It didn't involve having to remake every single individual function. Usable parts were kept and the ones that didn't make the cut were trashed. It wouldn't be unreasonable to say that many basic functions of Maplestory now could still be used in a new system.

In order to get what you want, you're basically asking that this entire game be thrown out and that Nexon start fresh.

Well, I already established from the last point- no. They don't need to toss everything, just the bits that are dated (which is still a lot).

If you really want that, I suggest you go play MapleStory 2 or a different game entirely.
Alternatively, take a stab at learning to at least read code and look into source code for games.
You'll find out just how ignorant you really are.

While there are likely a lot of things I don't know (same for everyone), I don't see why you'd say I'm ignorant. I've not once made light of the process in creating a new system (something you try and berate me for at every turn), I've acknowledged and said many times myself that it would be a difficult task, but I've also made it clear that it's not an impossible one. I don't know where you keep getting these notions, I've literally stated as clear-cut as possible what I thought would be best for the game.

I know how difficult coding is, I took a year-long class and while I found it fun, it was pretty stressful debugging, especially if it was in a complex program. That said, these are professionals- not to be mistaken with a one-year course like me. Some of them have years upon years of experience, I'd imagine it'd be quite insulting if I immediately wrote off their skills like that. They've somehow kept this spaghetti game afloat, if barely, all these years- it wouldn't be a stretch to say they're experienced (unless some were hired off private contracts which have since expired).

PS: I've already tried Maplestory 2, but it wasn't for me. The game was just kind... bubbly. I don't know how to put it but it was throwing me off so I stopped.

Aggraphine wrote: »

So 600+ bug fixes don't matter because there are still bugs to be fixed? If that's not moving the goalposts I don't know what is.

"They never fix bugs"
"Here are 600+ bugs they've fixed this year alone"
"BUT WHAT ABOUT THESE BUGS THAT ARE STILL IN THE GAME HMMM?"

Also, saying they're "not trying" because the game still has bugs is a ludicrous assumption to make. Have you ever had to maintain a legacy system?

This is why I specifically stated it the way I did, which you seem to have missed gloriously. Look again:

нσяιƶεη wrote: »

I can't have much respect for anyone that is not trying, I'm sure everyone would agree. By "not trying," I mean in their game system as a whole, not those minor bug fixes you've spoken about.

As you can see, I specifically stated that in reference to the game state as a whole, not individual bug fixes. I've also never stated that Maplestory never fixes bugs, I don't know where you got that notion but it's completely wrong and besides the point. I've said multiple times that while the developers are bug fixing the game, it's not what the game needs. You can't effectively optimize a system this bad. You can try, but it's likely not worth the effort and would but far more beneficial to make a whole new system (for effort and yield).

Fuhreak wrote: »

If you wish to compare games, you need to at least compare games with a similar setup. Hence why RO is a good example.
League is an awful example. They're not even the same genre. They don't require the same attention.
League was also created later (Released 2009, Riot opened doors 2006, so probably in development since then)
Programming standards had already changed a lot by this point to create better bases for these games to be supported on.MapleStory was released in 2003, so most likely development goes back to at least 2001 or 2000.
MMORPG was still a very young genre at this point, hence why adaptable codebase and long term support weren't really a priority for these games.
If you want a better comparison, you need to at least find an MMO from around 2003.

See? You don't seem to understand my entire point. I've been saying this whole time that they need to change. You keep trying to box games into categories when I've been saying that those categories need to be gone. Maplestory shouldn't be sitting back, content that they can keep the game in this state simply because they are "old." If you want to every be successful, you've got to be able to adapt. League is over 10 years old now. It's still keeping up to the times- they've made many minor and major changes through the course of the years to stay relevant in terms of both software and content. However, Maplestory seems mainly interested in attempting to stay relevant in content only and their software is clearly taking a backseat priority.

Who says games from nearly 20 years ago can't still be maintained and updated to be relevant in the present? You seem very insistent that games from 20 years ago should only be compared to other games from 20 years ago, but how is that going to change anything. I want Maplestory's software to be updated to modern standards, something that won't get done if you keep trying to compare Maplestory on "similar terms." I want Maplestory's software to become as efficient and organized as League of Legends, not this nonsense RO game that you yourself have clearly stated to being a mess.

Pets would still retain that main function if meso bags didn't exist. There are still plenty of items for them to pick up that players are too lazy to mash a pickup key to go grab.

Yes... we are talking about the same thing. There was no need to bring that up?

This is why I don't think you understand the scope of what you're asking for.
If you did, you'd be easily able to tell that they are in fact trying.
Look at all the various changes MapleStory has had in the past few years.

Going from Nova to Current:

New Classes: Illium, Cadena, Ark, Pathfinder, Hoyoung
New Areas: Morass, Esfera, Savage Terminal, Moon Bridge, Labyrinth of Suffering, Limina, Elodin Forest, Ancient Ruins Partem, Cheong-woon Valley
New Systems: Maple Achievement, V Matrix Points, Bonus Flames|25 Stars (New for GMS), Boss Practice Mode, Fairy Bros
New Bosses: Papulatus Revamp, Will, Gloom, Verus Hilla, Captain Darknell, Black Mage

There's a few things I missed in that I know but not the point.

Those are content changes. Completely useless in the software department which was the whole point of this discussion. Maplestory's software needs to be revamped in its entirety. These changes in content do absolutely nothing for how the game runs on OS and are irrelevant.

But all these content updates come with bug fixes as well. Going from just this year until current, (This year isn't even over yet) there are over 600 listed fixes on the website. Excluding things like "Windows Update" or "Server backend fixes".
These are just the listed changes. There are most certainly more that either were not listed, forgotten about or simply backend that players don't need to know about.

Again, these are all minor updates and bug fixes. It's like pointing at band-aids and saying they've done good when there's a bloody broken leg right there next to it. All these bug fixes you are talking about are just mini patches fixing an impossibly broken system that won't get fixed no matter how many band-aids you slap on it. Like I've been saying, they need an entirely NEW system, or at least organize everything in this one, because none of their changes will make this game run better. The problem is a fundamental issue to how they've structured Maplestory's software.

I think if you still feel that the developers "lack initiative" then you lack respect for just how hard it is to be a developer.

I can't have much respect for anyone that is not trying, I'm sure everyone would agree. By "not trying," I mean in their game system as a whole, not those minor bug fixes you've spoken about. If you want to say they've been trying, stop trying to point out all these individual changes/updates and point me to where Maplestory's developers are actively optimizing the system as a whole. This means things on the scale of getting rid of this ridiculous system of layering content on top of content.

I don't mean to undermine the developer's efforts in trying to keep this game afloat, but quite frankly, it's like trying to keep the Titanic from sinking after it hit the iceberg. It's already going down, the game is still deteriorating. Rather than slapping band-aids on a gaping hole, they need a new damn boat.

Those 600+ bug fixes you've mentioned, while admirable, it does nothing for the macro state of the game. It's quite similar to a broken vase. What the developers are doing now is picking up broken pieces and instead of tossing it away and getting a new vase, they're gluing the pieces back together.

I've given you two analogies as to what I'm saying and what I want so that you don't misunderstand this time. TLDR: minor bug fixes < whole system organization and/or revamp.