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Lack of balance between classes

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  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018
    OP, youre too fixated on final damage, you can have tons of final damage and still hit low numbers. I have 140% final damage with 470k range and barely hit 1mils ( 6mils on bosses) on my Hero. Get % att and % dex on the marksman. Stop worrying too much about final damage.


    I just compared my hero to my marksman (Hero 185 MM 150)
    Hero has 490k fully buffed with link dmg fully stacked) 14x star force
    epic potentials
    tyrant cape with 155 str 2 stars
    % stats on gear

    hits no more than 1.5 mil

    Marksman: 150 (47k range)
    0 star force
    only fafnir crossbow
    empress gear
    no potentials no flames
    no links

    hits 300k-500ks



    My legion isnt set up for any class specifically, it's set up for boss damage and critical damage.

  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    UserRed wrote: »
    crimson24 wrote: »
    Rexaar wrote: »


    ~snip~

    you are forgetting that dark knight already gets 100% final damage and 30%+ crit damage that it trains with, as well as hero's 140% final damage. marksman has no huge source of damage outside of rangefinder that it trains with.

    ...Except Marksman's skill IS its damage. Without counting additional Final Damage and accounting for all damage increasing Hyper Skills (which Dark Knight lacks for Dark Impale), Piercing Shot deals 2520%, Raging Blow deals 1929.6%, and Dark Impale does 1680% damage. As shown here Piercing Shot deals miles more damage than the mobbing skills, and when taking into account that by itself Split Shot has a 50% uptime this means that 50% of the time you'll be nuking maps like CLP and Slurpy, and still destroying at other maps.

    When taking account FD things get a little more rough but this is justified due to Marksman being a better bosser, Hero supposed to be having high damage and poorer range and Dark Knight's lack of insane critical rate unlike Marksman, which does not have a hard time hitting 100% crit rate.

    piercing shot only deals 25% more damage than raging blow, that does not make up for the lack of damage marksman(and bowmaster) gets from other sources. not only that but one of their best skills(sharp eyes) is obtainable by every other class in the game. marksman is not a better bosser than hero or dark knight with the same funding. I have a hero by the way and the range on raging blow currently is ridiculous.
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    OP, youre too fixated on final damage, you can have tons of final damage and still hit low numbers. I have 140% final damage with 470k range and barely hit 1mils ( 6mils on bosses) on my Hero. Get % att and % dex on the marksman. Stop worrying too much about final damage.


    I just compared my hero to my marksman (Hero 185 MM 150)
    Hero has 490k fully buffed with link dmg fully stacked) 14x star force
    epic potentials
    tyrant cape with 155 str 2 stars
    % stats on gear

    hits no more than 1.5 mil

    Marksman: 150 (47k range)
    0 star force
    only fafnir crossbow
    empress gear
    no potentials no flames
    no links

    hits 300k-500ks



    My legion isnt set up for any class specifically, it's set up for boss damage and critical damage.

    thanks for the info and for the video. I am just going to play hero and hope that nexon doesn't pull what they did with Halloween totems with wondroid. after comparing hero and marksman I now realize that hero is just a much stronger class with equal funding.( and has the best scaling in the game) not only is hero better but it can also acquire one of marksman's best skills(sharp eyes). maybe in the future marksman will be buffed but for now im just going to play hero or another powerful class.
  • L4d2jpnL4d2jpn
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    edited October 2018
    FYI,
    100% damage skill on a hero != 100% damage skill on a Marksman.

    Nothing is one to one but you think it's so.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited October 2018
    crimson24 wrote: »

    that's my point. the 100%+ final damage drk/hero get are used completely when training. why is it any different for marksman. marksman should have 70% final damage regardless of range.

    Because it's a bossing skill. You don't use binds when grinding, should we change those too?
    DRK/Hero are different classes. You cannot place an orange next to an apple and constantly compare them based on surface appearance.
    In the end they're both mechanically different and you need to play them both to fully understand them.
    Marksman doesn't even need the +70% FD because it can just OHKO everything like all the other classes.
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018
    I think you just have your heart set on hero; clearly with the same funding, marksman could be stronger.

    If my marksman had the same stats and range in the video; it'd be hitting more than 2 mils at 150 compared to 1.5 on the hero at 185
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    crimson24 wrote: »

    that's my point. the 100%+ final damage drk/hero get are used completely when training. why is it any different for marksman. marksman should have 70% final damage regardless of range.

    Because it's a bossing skill. You don't use binds when grinding, should we change those too?
    DRK/Hero are different classes. You cannot place an orange next to an apple and constantly compare them based on surface appearance.
    In the end they're both mechanically different and you need to play them both to fully understand them.
    Marksman doesn't even need the +70% FD because it can just OHKO everything like all the other classes.

    rangefinder is not meant to be just a bossing skill. you don't now what your talking about.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited October 2018
    crimson24 wrote: »

    rangefinder is not meant to be just a bossing skill. you don't now what your talking about.

    You don't need it when grinding to OHKO mobs, it can't be used reliably to fight mobs, it adds IED under certain conditions, it is best used against slow or non moving targets.
    How is it NOT a bossing skill? Design wise, please explain why you think this isn't a bossing skill.
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    I think you just have your heart set on hero; clearly with the same funding, marksman could be stronger.

    If my marksman had the same stats and range in the video; it'd be hitting more than 2 mils at 150 compared to 1.5 on the hero at 185
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    crimson24 wrote: »

    rangefinder is not meant to be just a bossing skill. you don't now what your talking about.

    You don't need it when grinding to OHKO mobs, it can't be used reliably to fight mobs, it adds IED under certain conditions, it is best used against slow or non moving targets.
    How is it NOT a bossing skill? Design wise, please explain why you think this isn't a bossing skill.

    my point is that hero benefits from 140% final damage and huge horizontal and vertical range on raging blow while training, while marksman only gets 35% crit damage(sharp eyes only gives 5% crit more crit damage than what hero gets because of decent sharp eyes) and 25% higher damage on piercing. This means that a marksman with similar funding will do far less damage.

    I wish marksman was good because I geared mine but in its current state marksman sucks, and bowmaster isn't much better.(even one of explorer archers best skills sharp eyes can be obtained by every other job in the game)

    I am quiting this class for something more powerful like hero, drk, or ice lightning mage. I feel really stupid for doing the wondroid event on such a weak class as explorer archer. I really hope that nexon doesn't pull what they did with the Halloween totems with the wondroid event.
  • L4d2jpnL4d2jpn
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    edited October 2018
    Piercing Arrow
    Fires an arrow. Its effect increases with each enemy it hits.
    Level 1: MP Cost: 24, Damage: 205%, Max Enemies Penetrated: 6, Number of Attacks: 4, final damage increases by 20% at every pierce and damage is doubled.
    Level 30: MP Cost: 42, Damage: 350%, Max Enemies Penetrated: 6, Number of Attacks: 4, final damage increases by 20% at every pierce and damage is doubled.

    350*4 = 1400
    Fd increases by 20% per pierce and damage is doubled.

    VS

    Raging Blow
    Deals multiple blows to multiple enemies in front of you. The final blow will always be a critical. While you are Enraged, your single attacks are more powerful. Must be Level 30 or above to learn Hyper Skill Cry Valhalla.
    Level 1: MP Cost: 22, Max Enemies Hit: 8, Damage: 152%, Number of Attacks: 5, Final attack is critical. When in Enrage, Attack: 9 times, Damage: 109%, the final two attacks are criticals.
    Level 30: MP Cost: 40, Max Enemies Hit: 8, Damage: 268%, Number of Attacks: 5, Final attack is critical. When in Enrage, Attack: 9 times, Damage: 167%, the final two attacks are criticals

    Flat 268 * 5 = 1340

    1400 absolute min (with potential of +1.2*2 for a grand total of 3360) vs static 1340.

    Summed up by darkpassenger with a 490k hero range hitting 1.5m vs 47k MM hitting 300-500k. His marksman can theoretically out damage his hero with around 141k-230k range.

    At this point in time, you've got to just be trolling.
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    L4d2jpn wrote: »
    Piercing Arrow
    Fires an arrow. Its effect increases with each enemy it hits.
    Level 1: MP Cost: 24, Damage: 205%, Max Enemies Penetrated: 6, Number of Attacks: 4, final damage increases by 20% at every pierce and damage is doubled.
    Level 30: MP Cost: 42, Damage: 350%, Max Enemies Penetrated: 6, Number of Attacks: 4, final damage increases by 20% at every pierce and damage is doubled.

    350*4 = 1400
    Fd increases by 20% per pierce and damage is doubled.

    VS

    Raging Blow
    Deals multiple blows to multiple enemies in front of you. The final blow will always be a critical. While you are Enraged, your single attacks are more powerful. Must be Level 30 or above to learn Hyper Skill Cry Valhalla.
    Level 1: MP Cost: 22, Max Enemies Hit: 8, Damage: 152%, Number of Attacks: 5, Final attack is critical. When in Enrage, Attack: 9 times, Damage: 109%, the final two attacks are criticals.
    Level 30: MP Cost: 40, Max Enemies Hit: 8, Damage: 268%, Number of Attacks: 5, Final attack is critical. When in Enrage, Attack: 9 times, Damage: 167%, the final two attacks are criticals

    Flat 268 * 5 = 1340

    1400 absolute min (with potential of +1.2*2 for a grand total of 3360) vs static 1340.

    Summed up by darkpassenger with a 490k hero range hitting 1.5m vs 47k MM hitting 300-500k. His marksman can theoretically out damage his hero with around 141k-230k range.

    At this point in time, you've got to just be trolling.

    you completely ignored advanced combo attack.(and its 20% final damage hyper skill) I have a hero and a marksman within 5 levels of each other in the 180s. you don't know what your talking about. the damage on piercing shot is not doubled by the way and the extra damage per pierce is basically worthless because half of the mobs only take nearly half damage and do not die.

    Of course you could 1 shot everything if you are funded enough but that is not the point. my point is that hero, dark knight, archmage, and other powerful jobs are much stronger than an explorer archer that has the same funds because of the damage built into the classes and the ease at applying their damage.
  • L4d2jpnL4d2jpn
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    edited October 2018
    crimson24 wrote: »
    L4d2jpn wrote: »
    Piercing Arrow
    Fires an arrow. Its effect increases with each enemy it hits.
    Level 1: MP Cost: 24, Damage: 205%, Max Enemies Penetrated: 6, Number of Attacks: 4, final damage increases by 20% at every pierce and damage is doubled.
    Level 30: MP Cost: 42, Damage: 350%, Max Enemies Penetrated: 6, Number of Attacks: 4, final damage increases by 20% at every pierce and damage is doubled.

    350*4 = 1400
    Fd increases by 20% per pierce and damage is doubled.

    VS

    Raging Blow
    Deals multiple blows to multiple enemies in front of you. The final blow will always be a critical. While you are Enraged, your single attacks are more powerful. Must be Level 30 or above to learn Hyper Skill Cry Valhalla.
    Level 1: MP Cost: 22, Max Enemies Hit: 8, Damage: 152%, Number of Attacks: 5, Final attack is critical. When in Enrage, Attack: 9 times, Damage: 109%, the final two attacks are criticals.
    Level 30: MP Cost: 40, Max Enemies Hit: 8, Damage: 268%, Number of Attacks: 5, Final attack is critical. When in Enrage, Attack: 9 times, Damage: 167%, the final two attacks are criticals

    Flat 268 * 5 = 1340

    1400 absolute min (with potential of +1.2*2 for a grand total of 3360) vs static 1340.

    Summed up by darkpassenger with a 490k hero range hitting 1.5m vs 47k MM hitting 300-500k. His marksman can theoretically out damage his hero with around 141k-230k range.

    At this point in time, you've got to just be trolling.

    you completely ignored advanced combo attack.(and its 20% final damage hyper skill) I have a hero and a marksman within 5 levels of each other in the 180s. you don't know what your talking about. the damage on piercing shot is not doubled by the way and the extra damage per pierce is basically worthless because half of the mobs only take nearly half damage and do not die.

    Of course you could 1 shot everything if you are funded enough but that is not the point. my point is that hero, dark knight, archmage, and other powerful jobs are much stronger than an explorer archer that has the same funds because of the damage built into the classes and the ease at applying their damage.

    DarkPassenger uploaded a video of his hero at 490k doing 1.5m lines versus his MM at 47k doing 300-500k. Your obsession is with bonus/final damage which just shows in your range which is displayed here and with all that, the hero would be doing less.

    If you still want to ignore that, then you're obviously trolling.

    Congrats on finding the job you want to play, I'll be looking forward to what else you want to complain about with hero.

    *edit* Here, because you can only seem to visualize numbers:
    https://imgur.com/a/7DffFGn
    My Hero @ 49k fully buffed using frozen set, nothing other than my legion which is linked to crit dmg, buff dur and some IED. My MM is using full fensalir with nothing else @ 20k.

    First image - Hero, nothing to say other than the damage you see here is about what you would normally see on average.
    Second - MM, 1v1 with piercing shot @ 0 range. *****EVEN ON NONCRIT IT WAS 90K WHICH RARELY OCCURRED*****
    Third - MM, 1v1 with Snipe @ 0 range.
    Fourth - MM, Piercing Shot Multi targets. Note here how the final hits are doing more than double.

    You favor melee style, just stick with your hero and stop complaining about something you have no idea what you're talking about.
    DarkPassengerUserRed
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018
    btw piercing arrow does double per pierce, that's why you don't need range finder to mob.


  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018
    youre also mistaken about equal funding; hero yielding better damage. Back when the cap was 2mil-2mil, marksman needed less range to actually cap damage, inversely Hero could've had 2mil-2mil and not cap at all.

    Likewise, with bossing, hero can have 2mil-2mil but not do some content while marksman can have 2mil-2mil and do the content hero cant.

    without cap it scales.

    youre mistaken if you think wondroid and sengoku badge are immediate game changers, they are powerful items but when everything else is in order.

    To make use of hero's 140% final damage, youll need a lot more funding than you would need on a marksman.
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    btw piercing arrow does double per pierce, that's why you don't need range finder to mob.


    piercing arrow does not do double damage per pierce, it only does 15% extra. 15% extra per pierce does not help you when training because half of the mobs don't die.
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    youre also mistaken about equal funding; hero yielding better damage. Back when the cap was 2mil-2mil, marksman needed less range to actually cap damage, inversely Hero could've had 2mil-2mil and not cap at all.

    Likewise, with bossing, hero can have 2mil-2mil but not do some content while marksman can have 2mil-2mil and do the content hero cant.

    without cap it scales.

    youre mistaken if you think wondroid and sengoku badge are immediate game changers, they are powerful items but when everything else is in order.

    To make use of hero's 140% final damage, youll need a lot more funding than you would need on a marksman.

    I did not say that a 2mil range hero would do the same damage as a 2mil range marksman. a hero with the same gear will have a range almost 3 times as high as a marksman and will do higher damage when training because of rangefinder not being at maximum distance. even with rangefinder at max range hero probably still does higher damage. piercing arrow does 35% more damage than raging blow, marksman has 35% crit damage, and 70% final damage at maximum range. you can just subtract the 70% final damage because rangefinder is useless when training.

    Hero has the equivalent of about 80% more final damage when training.( because its orbs can actually be used unlike rangefinder and hero has decent sharp eyes)

    if you count marksman's crit damage as final damage marksman has about 105% final damage plus 35%higher final damage on piercing arrow compared to raging blow. hero has 140% final damage from advanced combo attack, plus decent sharp eyes. with rangefinder at maximum range hero and marksman have similar damage, when rangefinder is not at maximum range, hero has higher damage.
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    L4d2jpn wrote: »
    crimson24 wrote: »
    L4d2jpn wrote: »
    Piercing Arrow
    Fires an arrow. Its effect increases with each enemy it hits.
    Level 1: MP Cost: 24, Damage: 205%, Max Enemies Penetrated: 6, Number of Attacks: 4, final damage increases by 20% at every pierce and damage is doubled.
    Level 30: MP Cost: 42, Damage: 350%, Max Enemies Penetrated: 6, Number of Attacks: 4, final damage increases by 20% at every pierce and damage is doubled.

    350*4 = 1400
    Fd increases by 20% per pierce and damage is doubled.

    VS

    Raging Blow
    Deals multiple blows to multiple enemies in front of you. The final blow will always be a critical. While you are Enraged, your single attacks are more powerful. Must be Level 30 or above to learn Hyper Skill Cry Valhalla.
    Level 1: MP Cost: 22, Max Enemies Hit: 8, Damage: 152%, Number of Attacks: 5, Final attack is critical. When in Enrage, Attack: 9 times, Damage: 109%, the final two attacks are criticals.
    Level 30: MP Cost: 40, Max Enemies Hit: 8, Damage: 268%, Number of Attacks: 5, Final attack is critical. When in Enrage, Attack: 9 times, Damage: 167%, the final two attacks are criticals

    Flat 268 * 5 = 1340

    1400 absolute min (with potential of +1.2*2 for a grand total of 3360) vs static 1340.

    Summed up by darkpassenger with a 490k hero range hitting 1.5m vs 47k MM hitting 300-500k. His marksman can theoretically out damage his hero with around 141k-230k range.

    At this point in time, you've got to just be trolling.

    you completely ignored advanced combo attack.(and its 20% final damage hyper skill) I have a hero and a marksman within 5 levels of each other in the 180s. you don't know what your talking about. the damage on piercing shot is not doubled by the way and the extra damage per pierce is basically worthless because half of the mobs only take nearly half damage and do not die.

    Of course you could 1 shot everything if you are funded enough but that is not the point. my point is that hero, dark knight, archmage, and other powerful jobs are much stronger than an explorer archer that has the same funds because of the damage built into the classes and the ease at applying their damage.

    DarkPassenger uploaded a video of his hero at 490k doing 1.5m lines versus his MM at 47k doing 300-500k. Your obsession is with bonus/final damage which just shows in your range which is displayed here and with all that, the hero would be doing less.

    If you still want to ignore that, then you're obviously trolling.

    Congrats on finding the job you want to play, I'll be looking forward to what else you want to complain about with hero.

    *edit* Here, because you can only seem to visualize numbers:
    https://imgur.com/a/7DffFGn
    My Hero @ 49k fully buffed using frozen set, nothing other than my legion which is linked to crit dmg, buff dur and some IED. My MM is using full fensalir with nothing else @ 20k.

    First image - Hero, nothing to say other than the damage you see here is about what you would normally see on average.
    Second - MM, 1v1 with piercing shot @ 0 range. *****EVEN ON NONCRIT IT WAS 90K WHICH RARELY OCCURRED*****
    Third - MM, 1v1 with Snipe @ 0 range.
    Fourth - MM, Piercing Shot Multi targets. Note here how the final hits are doing more than double.

    You favor melee style, just stick with your hero and stop complaining about something you have no idea what you're talking about.

    you didn't even get piercing arrows damage correctly. it does 400% 6x and 15% higher damage per pierce, its damage is not doubled at all.( you don't even play marksman and call me a troll) you and your buddies are claims are wrong.

    without rangefinder activating at maximum range marksman has less damage than a hero does.( I don't want marksman to be weaker, I geared mine already but the numbers prove that it has much less stable damage)
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    marksman mobbing after 200 isn't bad except when split arrow is down. Split arrow is a very good mobbing skill that does alot of damage and is up half of the time. rangefinder should still be changed but split arrow allows you to mob effectively even when losing 70% final damage.

    piercing arrow might not kill anything but split arrow will. marksman should still have range finders 70% final damage regardless of range.
  • L4d2jpnL4d2jpn
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    edited October 2018
    crimson24 wrote: »
    you didn't even get piercing arrows damage correctly. it does 400% 6x and 15% higher damage per pierce, its damage is not doubled at all.( you don't even play marksman and call me a troll) you and your buddies are claims are wrong.

    without rangefinder activating at maximum range marksman has less damage than a hero does.( I don't want marksman to be weaker, I geared mine already but the numbers prove that it has much less stable damage)

    Again. https://imgur.com/a/7DffFGn

    So are you going to claim that my screenshots are photoshopped? Are you seriously that dense?

    We can't get you to understand that Final Damage and Bonus Damage aren't the only thing that matter, We can't get you to understand differences in skill damage %, We can't even get you to see Video and Photo evidence. Are you still going to claim that you aren't trolling?
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