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Discussion: "Both" Tab in Rankings

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  • QuickDrawerQuickDrawer
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    edited March 2019
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    JushiroNet wrote: »
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    JushiroNet wrote: »
    whens the seperation

    Never. Nexon has chosen reboot as the winners in the leveling race.
    do you want both tab removed or reboot removed ?
    i dont see how that will change the "race" and "winners" you said

    Removing both tab would show they're not actually comparable.

    Of course, since they refused to do that I guess they are comparable. When is normal server getting better exp rates?
    yea but still even without both tab that wont stop compare
    non-reboot allways do 1-200/1-250 way faster
    but yea i dont care for both tab its just crazy to see all this because a extra tab that people can avoid looking at it
    its not like ranks are not separated would better if ranking revmap then worry about both tab
    hi, still going strong about 3 or 4 weeks after the first 275, still doing 15+ hours a day non stop
    someone pls elaborate how reboot is fair and both rankings is also fair, ty
    lemme guess "Didn't pay enough to win" xd
    i dont think you got full $ items/buff needed :)

    I think i found the braindead reboot tard.
    says the person that plays 15h+/day , $$whale$$ and still fails to reach to a point ... (braindead you say ehehehehe)
    i mean its fine i dont care community likes that their golden boy got busted cheating with that mindset ranking > fairplay & life
    btw
    am playing KMS (GMS reboot system i liked more then non-reboot while i was playing ,but both in last years got ruined by same people that cheat and do evrything for that ranking while nexon NA dont care)

    hes already using all he can use, he is limited to very few 2x exp coupons and has to
    pepe wrote: »
    AKradian wrote: »
    pepe wrote: »
    it's bizarre how fixated this community is on the rankings to the point where temper tantrums are thrown at the existence of an optional tab

    amazing

    It's bizarre how some human beings care, passionately even, about things that other human beings don't.

    Don't belittle others' concerns, just because you don't share them.

    Oh please save me the humility, this whole discussion hinges on an optional tab that shouldn't bother any sane man. There is nothing wrong with pointing out the obsessive nature of maintaining faux competition in our community.

    like how reboot complains about useless content being removed bc they "meso farmed" in it when they can just meso farm somewhere else
    Fuhreak
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited March 2019
    HHG1 wrote: »
    - Is the ranking of a competitive nature? Yes.
    -snip-
    which is then perpetuated by Nexon keeping the "Both" tab where this competition takes full form.

    So you want the competitive ranking page to be less competitive? Huh? /s
    The p2w servers aren't exactly on equal footing either.
    Players can just buy their way to success, should we remove all of those rankings as well?
    Unfair advantages are going to be had in MapleStory. If you want a healthy competitive environment, you need to look elsewhere.
    This is why I (and many others) find the whole issue over the both tab to be quiet silly. MapleStory just isn't designed to be fair to all players across the board.

    Edit: By the way, I understand and respect the opinions of the people who want the both tab removed.
    I even agree with it for a lot of reasons. I'm the kind of person who takes on the opinion of the underdog if I happen to agree with it to any regard however. If Nexon/Players want true discussion, both sides need to be represented.
    I feel like very few players actually care, but those that do care very deeply about it.
    However I also see it as something Nexon never really intended to be a main focus.
    I think that not only does the both tab hold useful information, but also creates more competition.
    Because of the imbalance however, it has turned from healthy to unhealthy.
    I think the real fix is for Nexon to finally address issues that they have seemingly been putting off for a long time.
    EXP/Spawn Rate, Too much Pay2Win (Cubes), Party Quests/GrindParties, etc.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited March 2019
    like how reboot complains about useless content being removed bc they "meso farmed" in it when they can just meso farm somewhere else

    To be fair, one of those "useless content" areas did have a really good badge. It was (barely) more than just an area for meta chasers to farm mesos.
  • HHG1HHG1
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    edited March 2019
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    HHG1 wrote: »
    - Is the ranking of a competitive nature? Yes.
    -snip-
    which is then perpetuated by Nexon keeping the "Both" tab where this competition takes full form.

    So you want the competitive ranking page to be less competitive? Huh? /s
    The p2w servers aren't exactly on equal footing either. Players can just buy their way to success, should we remove all of those rankings as well?
    Unfair advantages are going to be had in MapleStory. If you want a healthy competitive environment, you need to look elsewhere.
    This is why I (and many others) find the whole issue over the both tab to be quiet silly. MapleStory just isn't designed to be fair to all players across the board.

    Not gonna address the sarcasm and hyperbole.
    Again, within each realm of possibility. Reboot and regular servers do not share the same possibilities for progression to begin with. It's about having the options. Reboot and regular servers don't have the same options available by default, so they cannot compete against each other. So they should not be forced onto the same ranking page.
    I really don't understand why you can't see that it's an issue that deserves a solution when the gap is so very large. You don't even have to have any personal investment or care all that much about the rankings to understand why a joint ranking is inaccurate and illogical.
  • WONDERGUYWONDERGUY
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    edited March 2019
    pepe wrote: »
    AKradian wrote: »
    pepe wrote: »
    it's bizarre how fixated this community is on the rankings to the point where temper tantrums are thrown at the existence of an optional tab

    amazing

    It's bizarre how some human beings care, passionately even, about things that other human beings don't.

    Don't belittle others' concerns, just because you don't share them.

    Oh please save me the humility, this whole discussion hinges on an optional tab that shouldn't bother any sane man. There is nothing wrong with pointing out the obsessive nature of maintaining faux competition in our community.

    like how reboot complains about useless content being removed bc they "meso farmed" in it when they can just meso farm somewhere else
    it wasnt like that
    reboot complained cus they could not "afk" farm without funds on low areas so they started suicide and cheat (macro/spanish or whatever they call it "legit")


    the both tab issue its we got nothing better to do so lets complain and waste memo space
    because both tab option its "hard to avoid" and we cant click on other option please split ranking ? :
    NA
    maplestory.nexon.net/rankings/overall-ranking/legendary?rebootIndex=2
    maplestory.nexon.net/rankings/overall-ranking/legendary?rebootIndex=1
    EU
    maplestory.nexon.net/rankings/overall-ranking/legendary?region=eu&rebootIndex=2
    maplestory.nexon.net/rankings/overall-ranking/legendary?region=eu&rebootIndex=1

  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited March 2019
    HHG1 wrote: »
    Not gonna address the sarcasm and hyperbole.
    Fair. I didn't expect you to.
    Again, within each realm of possibility. Reboot and regular servers do not share the same possibilities for progression to begin with. It's about having the options. Reboot and regular servers don't have the same options available by default, so they cannot compete against each other. So they should not be forced onto the same ranking page.
    Regular servers don't really have the same options available by default either. If player A has more money than player B, player A will always win.
    Unlike other games where cash is purely cosmetic, MapleStory is unhealthy for competitive markets from the get go.
    I really don't understand why you can't see that it's an issue that deserves a solution when the gap is so very large. You don't even have to have any personal investment or care all that much about the rankings to understand why a joint ranking is inaccurate and illogical.
    I'd argue that it's rather pointless as you can just climb the ladder faster by just spending money on the game.
    In fact I'd say having a ranking system in the first place is really the inaccurate/illogical thing here.
    WONDERGUY
  • HHG1HHG1
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    edited March 2019
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Regular servers don't really have the same options available by default either.
    Aside from Belgian players just recently, they do. The cash shop is available to everyone by default. The native EXP is the same for everyone by default. The progression options are there by default, just the same as Reboot have their own default options, their own realm of possibility. What players choose to do with those options is entirely up to them, but they are there, they were made available by Nexon. Hence the playing field is even.
    It still comes down to what options are made available from the start. Reboot and regular server don't have the same options and conditions, they don't play by the same rules as each other, therefore they should not be made to compete under the same ranking.

    As a more clear cut example; Reboot can't create Zero. Yet they are on the same rankings as servers that can. The Zero "Both" job ranking is made of entirely regular server Zeros because Reboot doesn't have the option to make them, so they have a huge disadvantage in that ranking. Would you say it's fair for "Reboot Zeros" to be officially competing on a joint ranking in this case? Would you say the "Both" ranking is not misleading?
    The reason the "Both" tab top players are currently Reboot players is because of the inherit difference in the servers. The "Both" ranking is inaccurate by default and should be removed.

    - Is the ranking of a competitive nature? Yes.
    - Are cheaters removed from rankings for gaining unfair advantages? Yes.
    - Do any of the servers have any native/built in advantage or disadvantage in the competition? Yes.
    - Does this advantage or disadvantage affect the rankings in any way? Yes.
    - Should these servers have separate rankings to keep the competition fair and accurate for both servers? Yes.

    Still comes down to that.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited March 2019
    HHG1 wrote: »
    It still comes down to what options are made available from the start. Rich and poor players don't have the same options and conditions, they don't play by the same rules as each other, therefore they should not be made to compete under the same ranking.
    Your saying works against you as well. Players in regular servers don't have the same options available. It's all relative to how much money they have.
    Still comes down to that.
    I'd like to know who made you the deciding factor on what the rankings are or aren't.
    Because I would answer no to both the first and last option.
    Until the ranking boils down to your raw naturally ability, I would say no, that's not competitive nature.
    This is why games like Smash Brothers are played with items off and only on certain stages.
    To reduce it to as little RNG and increase it to as much skill based as possible.
    MapleStory is hardly skill based and without RNG.

    As far as the last option, if it's already unfair and unaccurate by the very nature of the game, I see no reason to try to pretend removing the both tab will fix this.
    All you do then is make reboot rankings the only fair/accurate ranking page. Something we already have.
  • AKradianAKradian
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    edited March 2019
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    HHG1 wrote: »
    It still comes down to what options are made available from the start. Rich and poor players don't have the same options and conditions, they don't play by the same rules as each other, therefore they should not be made to compete under the same ranking.
    Your saying works against you as well. Players in regular servers don't have the same options available. It's all relative to how much money they have.
    Still comes down to that.
    I'd like to know who made you the deciding factor on what the rankings are or aren't.
    Because I would answer no to both the first and last option.
    Until the ranking boils down to your raw naturally ability, I would say no, that's not competitive nature.
    This is why games like Smash Brothers are played with items off and only on certain stages.
    To reduce it to as little RNG and increase it to as much skill based as possible.
    MapleStory is hardly skill based and without RNG.

    As far as the last option, if it's already unfair and unaccurate by the very nature of the game, I see no reason to try to pretend removing the both tab will fix this.
    All you do then is make reboot rankings the only fair/accurate ranking page. Something we already have.

    Reboot rankings aren't fair either, because not all players have the same options available. It's all relative to how much time they have, and whether they have a second computer to run a Kanna on.

    Point is: the rankings are fair as long as the options Nexon offers to players are the same. If some people are not in a position to make optimal use of these options, that is out of Nexon's hands.
    However, in the case of Reboot vs. non-Reboot, the game itself does not give the same options. It's not a matter of player choices or life constraints. It's unequal at a fundamental level, the definition of the playing field.

    FuhreakHHG1
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited March 2019
    AKradian wrote: »
    Reboot rankings aren't fair either, because not all players have the same options available. It's all relative to how much time they have, and whether they have a second computer to run a Kanna on.

    Point is: the rankings are fair as long as the options Nexon offers to players are the same. If some people are not in a position to make optimal use of these options, that is out of Nexon's hands.
    However, in the case of Reboot vs. non-Reboot, the game itself does not give the same options. It's not a matter of player choices or life constraints. It's unequal at a fundamental level, the definition of the playing field.

    I agree with the Kanna second PC thing as well as time. But this does just get back to my other point in that MapleStory is unfair/unbalanced by its very nature.
    The idea of equal footing rankings is a farce. It's nothing you should take too seriously, except maybe to compare yourself among friends or people in similar setups to your own.
    I believe it was setup as a "for fun" thing and somehow it turned into something a bit more serious.
    If people really care that deeply about the rankings, we need to get the KMS ranking system to reflect how serious Nexon is going to take them from now on.
  • HHG1HHG1
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    edited March 2019
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Your saying works against you as well. Players in regular servers don't have the same options available. It's all relative to how much money they have.
    They do have the same options available. They're right there. Personal circumstances have nothing to do with it, and there are plenty of ways to progress F2P. You make the choice when you decide which server type to play, which options you want access to and which gametype suits your needs better. There are endless amounts of threads asking for guidance on which server type to choose.
    I'd also appreciate it if you'd stop misquoting me to try and make a point.
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    I'd like to know who made you the deciding factor on what the rankings are or aren't.
    Because I would answer no to both the first and last option.
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    The idea of equal footing rankings is a farce. It's nothing you should take too seriously, except maybe to compare yourself among friends or people in similar setups to your own.
    I never said I was, I'm just trying to explain it objectively.
    The rankings are competitive because it's a numbered list based on who gets more EXP faster. People can pass each other and reach the end goal faster or slower than others. Thus it is a competition. A race.
    There are rankings in sports, and there are separate weight class rankings, there are even competitions that are separated by gender because the difference in physique matters. Rankings are rankings. You can be first and you can be last. Leaderboard.
    Like you said, it's a way to compare yourself to other people on it who have similar setups. Comparing a reg server player and a reboot player is inaccurate because they in no way have similar setups, they're vastly different by default, it causes animosity and demotivates players because these differences are not apparent on a "Both" ranking.

    You are free to look at the rankings however you want personally, but that doesn't change the fact that it's competitive and always has been.
    All I want is for that competition to at least be separated based on server type because of the different options available in them. The gap is entirely too large for it to be even remotely fair.
    Balancing the separate server options within themselves is a different issue and is something they tweak with constantly. As people have pointed out before me, putting some work into separating the rankings doesn't mean that they can't also adjust in-game balance. But unless Reboot and regular servers have the exact same progression options made available to them, I don't see a single reason to keep the "Both" tab, I see more reasons to remove it.

    I think we agree that the KMS system is superior either way. If Nexon had made any type of promise to look into implementing them, then I would have been willing to drop the subject temporarily while they figure that out and ask for an update later on, but they didn't and I'm just trying to understand why and hopefully have them reconsider.
    Fuhreak
  • WONDERGUYWONDERGUY
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    edited March 2019
    HHG1 wrote: »
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Your saying works against you as well. Players in regular servers don't have the same options available. It's all relative to how much money they have.
    They do have the same options available. They're right there. Personal circumstances have nothing to do with it, and there are plenty of ways to progress F2P. You make the choice when you decide which server type to play, which options you want access to and which gametype suits your needs better. There are endless amounts of threads asking for guidance on which server type to choose.
    I'd also appreciate it if you'd stop misquoting me to try and make a point.

    not all had a chance to make such decision
    reboot come way way late its unfair to force non-reboot with label as p2w and deal with it ( not like we can change that...)
    what if reboot become harder p2w with time like non-reboot ?
    for example
    mvp buff aint free unless you find/wait someone cast even then that guy did spend $ to get
    who says they wont do more things like that and slowly slide the lootbox scam

    eitherway when they dont lisent players and do $$ as they want . people move to KMS or other game
    so yea both tab or not we still got other issue that are not balanced

    almost 2months "Both" Tab in Rankings talk loooooooool
    Fuhreak
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited March 2019
    HHG1 wrote: »
    I'd also appreciate it if you'd stop misquoting me to try and make a point.
    I am not misquoting you. I am making my own quote based on yours.
    You are right about me making a point though.
    I never said I was, I'm just trying to explain it objectively.
    The rankings are competitive because it's a numbered list based on who gets more EXP faster. People can pass each other and reach the end goal faster or slower than others. Thus it is a competition. A race.
    There are rankings in sports, and there are separate weight class rankings, there are even competitions that are separated by gender because the difference in physique matters. Rankings are rankings. You can be first and you can be last. Leaderboard.
    Like you said, it's a way to compare yourself to other people on it who have similar setups. Comparing a reg server player and a reboot player is inaccurate because they in no way have similar setups, they're vastly different by default, it causes animosity and demotivates players because these differences are not apparent on a "Both" ranking.
    I am also trying to explain objectively why it's not fair in the first place.
    There are things that are against the rules in racing, such as performance enhancing drugs.
    Just because MapleStory has them as "part of the game" doesn't make it right or fair.
    You are free to look at the rankings however you want personally, but that doesn't change the fact that it's competitive and always has been.
    All I want is for that competition to at least be separated based on server type because of the different options available in them. The gap is entirely too large for it to be even remotely fair.
    I do agree with this. But I think this can easily be solved by just making the both tab non-default.
    Balancing the separate server options within themselves is a different issue and is something they tweak with constantly. As people have pointed out before me, putting some work into separating the rankings doesn't mean that they can't also adjust in-game balance. But unless Reboot and regular servers have the exact same progression options made available to them, I don't see a single reason to keep the "Both" tab, I see more reasons to remove it.
    I can respect that. I disagree with it, but I understand why you feel that way.
    I think we agree that the KMS system is superior either way. If Nexon had made any type of promise to look into implementing them, then I would have been willing to drop the subject temporarily while they figure that out and ask for an update later on, but they didn't and I'm just trying to understand why and hopefully have them reconsider.
    100% agree on the KMS ranking. I think it makes both groups happy.
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    almost 2months "Both" Tab in Rankings talk loooooooool

    I warned people about this. I've made plenty of bumps to this thread so my hands aren't "clean" either.
    But as I mentioned early on, if this gets an official thread, I want official threads for other issues like Kanna.
    There is a huge difference between user created threads and ones created by Nexon staff.
    Please treat the other issues as if they actually matter, Nexon.

  • JushiroNetJushiroNet
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    edited March 2019
    Unfortunately nexon has already ruled that doing nothing is easier than doing something. A common theme with many issues.

    FuhreakWONDERGUY
  • WONDERGUYWONDERGUY
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    edited March 2019
    GG
    search dosnt work tho
    but more clarification for ignorant



    now hopefully more serious discussion-changes about maplestory
    9F4l5nq.jpg
  • JushiroNetJushiroNet
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    edited March 2019
    This is perhaps a silly point, or perhaps an insight to nexon's mindset.

    We're not a normal server, oh no no no. We're not reboot.

    Reboot is the default according to nexon and we're not the default.
  • WONDERGUYWONDERGUY
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    edited March 2019
    JushiroNet wrote: »
    This is perhaps a silly point, or perhaps an insight to nexon's mindset.

    We're not a normal server, oh no no no. We're not reboot.

    Reboot is the default according to nexon and we're not the default.
    we are non-reboot and reboot
    its all same its maplestory
    one work with their wallet other with ingame meso

    noone its default

    its silly to be
    normal and not-normal server
  • JushiroNetJushiroNet
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    edited March 2019
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    its silly to be
    normal and not-normal server

    Correct because it would be normal and reboot. Not that complicated.

  • WONDERGUYWONDERGUY
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    edited March 2019
    JushiroNet wrote: »
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    its silly to be
    normal and not-normal server

    Correct because it would be normal and reboot. Not that complicated.

    you love server wars no matter what like other in here that only keep eye on both tab as option
    i mean its fine you dont like reboot let it go keep eye on tab you like (i like both equally alltho they got issues)
    its only non-reboot untill you select your world
    "normal" and reboot ? implying as they are not normal or something
    Fuhreak
  • JushiroNetJushiroNet
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    edited March 2019
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    i mean its fine you dont like reboot

    Not true in the way you're suggesting. Reboot players have every right to enjoy their server, and it's ok that reboot exists. What I don't like is the ridiculous favouritism nexon gives to reboot. I don't like the direction nexon is taking with this game. Am I not allowed to have opinions?
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    "normal" and reboot ? implying as they are not normal or something

    Reboot is not normal, so that would be correct. This doesn't make reboot bad necessarily but it is a distinct game type.

    It doesn't make sense to define normal servers as not being a game type that was added later. They're just regular/vanilla/normal.

    Fuhreak