[New Users] Please note that all new users need to be approved before posting. This process can take up to 24 hours. Thank you for your patience.
Check out the v.221 Spring Blossoms Patch Notes here!
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the Forums Code of Conduct: https://forums.maplestory.nexon.net/discussion/29556/code-of-conducts

Discussion: "Both" Tab in Rankings

Comments

  • JushiroNetJushiroNet
    Reactions: 5,950
    Posts: 747
    Member, Private Tester
    edited March 2019
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    JushiroNet wrote: »
    whens the seperation

    Never. Nexon has chosen reboot as the winners in the leveling race.
    do you want both tab removed or reboot removed ?
    i dont see how that will change the "race" and "winners" you said

    Removing both tab would show they're not actually comparable.

    Of course, since they refused to do that I guess they are comparable. When is normal server getting better exp rates?
  • HHG1HHG1
    Reactions: 5,966
    Posts: 780
    Member, Private Tester
    edited March 2019
    Since they're apparently equal enough in Nexon's eyes to be on the same rankings then they might as well allow transfers too. If the servers aren't different enough to warrant entirely separated leaderboards then why should there be any other barriers separating the two.
    You see my point here.

    The majority of the community, and especially those who actually care about the rankings and understand what rankings are supposed to be, don't want the Both tab to stay. Yet Nexon went for the half-measure that pleases the vocal minority (which have already moved on from the topic) but doesn't actually solve anything that has been brought up in this thread.
    There's a reason the topic of separation has been brought up time and time again.
  • KakeSealLordKakeSealLord
    Reactions: 605
    Posts: 14
    Member, Private Tester
    edited March 2019
    hi, still going strong about 3 or 4 weeks after the first 275, still doing 15+ hours a day non stop
    someone pls elaborate how reboot is fair and both rankings is also fair, ty
    lemme guess "Didn't pay enough to win" xd
  • WONDERGUYWONDERGUY
    Reactions: 3,060
    Posts: 495
    Member
    edited March 2019
    JushiroNet wrote: »
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    JushiroNet wrote: »
    whens the seperation

    Never. Nexon has chosen reboot as the winners in the leveling race.
    do you want both tab removed or reboot removed ?
    i dont see how that will change the "race" and "winners" you said

    Removing both tab would show they're not actually comparable.

    Of course, since they refused to do that I guess they are comparable. When is normal server getting better exp rates?
    yea but still even without both tab that wont stop compare
    non-reboot allways do 1-200/1-250 way faster
    but yea i dont care for both tab its just crazy to see all this because a extra tab that people can avoid looking at it
    its not like ranks are not separated would better if ranking revmap then worry about both tab
    hi, still going strong about 3 or 4 weeks after the first 275, still doing 15+ hours a day non stop
    someone pls elaborate how reboot is fair and both rankings is also fair, ty
    lemme guess "Didn't pay enough to win" xd
    i dont think you got full $ items/buff needed :)
  • VanillaTwistVanillaTwist
    Reactions: 500
    Post: 1
    Member, Private Tester
    edited March 2019
    When the community for years have been asking for a separation in rankings for years, Nexon leaves the job half done. There is just simply no reason to keep the "both" ranking tab even for the sake of comparison unless you want to compare Reboot vs the 14 (at the time of this post) normal server players.

    current standings:
    1-12 REBOOT
    13 MYBCKN
    14-16 REBOOT
    17 SCANIA
    18-19 REBOOT
    20 BERA
    21-23 REBOOT
    24 SCANIA
    25 REBOOT
    26 WINDIA
    27-31 REBOOT
    32 MYBCKN
    33-34 BERA
    35 REBOOT
    36 BERA
    37-44 REBOOT
    45 BERA
    46 REBOOT
    47 BROA
    48 SCANIA
    49 BERA
    50 WINDIA

    Really leaves a lot to compare between both servers when only 14/50 of the top 50 are players from normal servers.
    SealLord has been nonstop grinding for the past 6 weeks while players in reboot were ahead by almost a full 3 weeks if Nexon wants to leave that for comparison.
  • KakeSealLordKakeSealLord
    Reactions: 605
    Posts: 14
    Member, Private Tester
    edited March 2019
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    JushiroNet wrote: »
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    JushiroNet wrote: »
    whens the seperation

    Never. Nexon has chosen reboot as the winners in the leveling race.
    do you want both tab removed or reboot removed ?
    i dont see how that will change the "race" and "winners" you said

    Removing both tab would show they're not actually comparable.

    Of course, since they refused to do that I guess they are comparable. When is normal server getting better exp rates?
    yea but still even without both tab that wont stop compare
    non-reboot allways do 1-200/1-250 way faster
    but yea i dont care for both tab its just crazy to see all this because a extra tab that people can avoid looking at it
    its not like ranks are not separated would better if ranking revmap then worry about both tab
    hi, still going strong about 3 or 4 weeks after the first 275, still doing 15+ hours a day non stop
    someone pls elaborate how reboot is fair and both rankings is also fair, ty
    lemme guess "Didn't pay enough to win" xd
    i dont think you got full $ items/buff needed :)

    I think i found the braindead reboot tard.
  • WONDERGUYWONDERGUY
    Reactions: 3,060
    Posts: 495
    Member
    edited March 2019
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    JushiroNet wrote: »
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    JushiroNet wrote: »
    whens the seperation

    Never. Nexon has chosen reboot as the winners in the leveling race.
    do you want both tab removed or reboot removed ?
    i dont see how that will change the "race" and "winners" you said

    Removing both tab would show they're not actually comparable.

    Of course, since they refused to do that I guess they are comparable. When is normal server getting better exp rates?
    yea but still even without both tab that wont stop compare
    non-reboot allways do 1-200/1-250 way faster
    but yea i dont care for both tab its just crazy to see all this because a extra tab that people can avoid looking at it
    its not like ranks are not separated would better if ranking revmap then worry about both tab
    hi, still going strong about 3 or 4 weeks after the first 275, still doing 15+ hours a day non stop
    someone pls elaborate how reboot is fair and both rankings is also fair, ty
    lemme guess "Didn't pay enough to win" xd
    i dont think you got full $ items/buff needed :)

    I think i found the braindead reboot tard.
    says the person that plays 15h+/day , $$whale$$ and still fails to reach to a point ... (braindead you say ehehehehe)
    i mean its fine i dont care community likes that their golden boy got busted cheating with that mindset ranking > fairplay & life
    btw
    am playing KMS (GMS reboot system i liked more then non-reboot while i was playing ,but both in last years got ruined by same people that cheat and do evrything for that ranking while nexon NA dont care)
  • iLiMiTaDoiLiMiTaDo
    Reactions: 1,225
    Posts: 48
    Member
    edited March 2019
    the option both must be removed and add ramking for DualBlade
  • MerphistMerphist
    Reactions: 790
    Posts: 21
    Member, Private Tester
    edited March 2019
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    JushiroNet wrote: »
    WONDERGUY wrote: »
    JushiroNet wrote: »
    whens the seperation

    Never. Nexon has chosen reboot as the winners in the leveling race.
    do you want both tab removed or reboot removed ?
    i dont see how that will change the "race" and "winners" you said

    Removing both tab would show they're not actually comparable.

    Of course, since they refused to do that I guess they are comparable. When is normal server getting better exp rates?
    yea but still even without both tab that wont stop compare
    non-reboot allways do 1-200/1-250 way faster
    but yea i dont care for both tab its just crazy to see all this because a extra tab that people can avoid looking at it
    its not like ranks are not separated would better if ranking revmap then worry about both tab
    hi, still going strong about 3 or 4 weeks after the first 275, still doing 15+ hours a day non stop
    someone pls elaborate how reboot is fair and both rankings is also fair, ty
    lemme guess "Didn't pay enough to win" xd
    i dont think you got full $ items/buff needed :)

    I think i found the braindead reboot tard.
    says the person that plays 15h+/day , $$whale$$ and still fails to reach to a point ... (braindead you say ehehehehe)
    i mean its fine i dont care community likes that their golden boy got busted cheating with that mindset ranking > fairplay & life
    btw
    am playing KMS (GMS reboot system i liked more then non-reboot while i was playing ,but both in last years got ruined by same people that cheat and do evrything for that ranking while nexon NA dont care)

    I think you may have forgotten even whales cannot even pay to get 2x cash shop coupons.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
    Reactions: 6,670
    Posts: 1,254
    Member, Private Tester
    edited March 2019
    HHG1 wrote: »
    Yet Nexon went for the half-measure that pleases the vocal minority
    The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Vocal Majority does not mean that the majority feels that way.
    I would say that most people probably do not care about the rankings in the slightest.
    For the players that do, the both tab should not bother you at all if it's not default and the search works as it should.
  • pepepepe
    Reactions: 1,995
    Posts: 152
    Member
    edited March 2019
    it's bizarre how fixated this community is on the rankings to the point where temper tantrums are thrown at the existence of an optional tab

    amazing
    WONDERGUY
  • HHG1HHG1
    Reactions: 5,966
    Posts: 780
    Member, Private Tester
    edited March 2019
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    HHG1 wrote: »
    Yet Nexon went for the half-measure that pleases the vocal minority
    The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Vocal Majority does not mean that the majority feels that way.
    I would say that most people probably do not care about the rankings in the slightest.
    For the players that do, the both tab should not bother you at all if it's not default and the search works as it should.

    The issue is the Both tab being there in the first place as myself and others have explained in previous posts.
    Nexon makes all kinds of adjustments in the name of "balance" while the Both tab is left alone despite being a horribly unbalanced representation of the game. Anyone with basic understanding of what a public ranking is should be able to see why it's an issue.
  • AKradianAKradian
    Reactions: 39,250
    Posts: 5,998
    Volunteer Forum Moderator, Private Tester
    edited March 2019
    pepe wrote: »
    it's bizarre how fixated this community is on the rankings to the point where temper tantrums are thrown at the existence of an optional tab

    amazing

    It's bizarre how some human beings care, passionately even, about things that other human beings don't.

    Don't belittle others' concerns, just because you don't share them.
    Fuhreak
  • FuhreakFuhreak
    Reactions: 6,670
    Posts: 1,254
    Member, Private Tester
    edited March 2019
    HHG1 wrote: »
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    HHG1 wrote: »
    Yet Nexon went for the half-measure that pleases the vocal minority
    The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Vocal Majority does not mean that the majority feels that way.
    I would say that most people probably do not care about the rankings in the slightest.
    For the players that do, the both tab should not bother you at all if it's not default and the search works as it should.

    The issue is the Both tab being there in the first place as myself and others have explained in previous posts.
    Nexon makes all kinds of adjustments in the name of "balance" while the Both tab is left alone despite being a horribly unbalanced representation of the game. Anyone with basic understanding of what a public ranking is should be able to see why it's an issue.

    Rankings does not affect "balance" it only shows that one server is more popular and/or faster than the others.
    The "balance" you're talking about is a completely different subject matter.
    Since you're able to see that "issue" in the first place, that actually brings to light a different issue.
    That reboot is either more popular or faster than other servers. Both which should be red flags.

    Reboot (one server) should not be more popular than the rest combined.
    Or Reboot, being the "hard server" should not be faster than normal servers.
    The fact is, without the both tab, you wouldn't be aware of such issues in the first place.
    Both tab is actually a good thing, from arguments of your own side.
  • HHG1HHG1
    Reactions: 5,966
    Posts: 780
    Member, Private Tester
    edited March 2019
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    HHG1 wrote: »
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    HHG1 wrote: »
    Yet Nexon went for the half-measure that pleases the vocal minority
    The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Vocal Majority does not mean that the majority feels that way.
    I would say that most people probably do not care about the rankings in the slightest.
    For the players that do, the both tab should not bother you at all if it's not default and the search works as it should.

    The issue is the Both tab being there in the first place as myself and others have explained in previous posts.
    Nexon makes all kinds of adjustments in the name of "balance" while the Both tab is left alone despite being a horribly unbalanced representation of the game. Anyone with basic understanding of what a public ranking is should be able to see why it's an issue.

    Rankings does not affect "balance" it only shows that one server is more popular and/or faster than the others.
    The "balance" you're talking about is a completely different subject matter.
    Since you're able to see that "issue" in the first place, that actually brings to light a different issue.
    That reboot is either more popular or faster than other servers. Both which should be red flags.

    Reboot (one server) should not be more popular than the rest combined.
    Or Reboot, being the "hard server" should not be faster than normal servers.
    The fact is, without the both tab, you wouldn't be aware of such issues in the first place.
    Both tab is actually a good thing, from arguments of your own side.

    When I say that the rankings are imbalanced I mean that they are leaning one way harder than the other because of the differences in servers and cannot accurately represent the in-game balance because the two server types are fundamentally different.

    Your reasoning for the Both tab being useful is quite a reach and has no base in my argument. Having the two separate rankings would still reveal that Reboot is faster. Even the knowledge that Reboot has higher base exp, while regular server cannot use 2x coupons past 250 would make people draw the conclusion that Reboot would reach 275 faster. It makes sense that it's faster.

    Reboot balancing is not what this thread is about though.
    It's about whether having them both compete on the same ranking is appropriate or not. It's not.
    The only thing the Both tab has made incredibly obvious post-250 is the fact that it should not exist. Many of us made the same arguments months and years ago, but it wasn't officially brought up until now.
    Fuhreak
  • FuhreakFuhreak
    Reactions: 6,670
    Posts: 1,254
    Member, Private Tester
    edited March 2019
    HHG1 wrote: »
    When I say that the rankings are imbalanced I mean that they are leaning one way harder than the other because of the differences in servers and cannot accurately represent the in-game balance because the two server types are fundamentally different.
    Sure. But isn't it nice/cool to know that despite those differences, some people are still able to hold up?
    Your reasoning for the Both tab being useful is quite a reach and has no base in my argument. Having the two separate rankings would still reveal that Reboot is faster. Even the knowledge that Reboot has higher base exp, while regular server cannot use 2x coupons past 250 would make people draw the conclusion that Reboot would reach 275 faster. It makes sense that it's faster.
    Not your argument, but arguments made by people who agree with you.
    Reboot balancing is not what this thread is about though.
    It's about whether having them both compete on the same ranking is appropriate or not. It's not.
    The only thing the Both tab has made incredibly obvious post-250 is the fact that it should not exist. Many of us made the same arguments months and years ago, but it wasn't officially brought up until now.
    The both tab still has information that cannot exist without it.
    If you remove the both tab you cannot see when people hit the max level, and how many, compared to reboot.
    If 100 people are 275 on reg servers and 200 people are 275 on reboot... Without the both tab, how do you check how quickly each of those things happened?
    You can see 100 people at 275 on reg server, you can see 200 people at 275 on reboot, but you cannot tell how those two events developed in relation to each other.

    Being able to compare things that have a contrast is still useful and it's still something I'd like to be able to access.
    If we're going to keep or remove the both tab, I think it makes more sense to keep it as it's only information, which you may choose to ignore.
    Once the rankings are able to directly affect the game, then it might make sense to remove the both tab.
    For example, if the rankings gave MaplePoints to the top 100 players in the both tab, that would be unbalanced.
    I'll say it again just in case, players looking at the rankings and getting discouraged is not affecting game play directly.
    The rankings themselves, with or without the both tab, do not do anything to your ability to play the game.
  • HHG1HHG1
    Reactions: 5,966
    Posts: 780
    Member, Private Tester
    edited March 2019
    Sure. But isn't it nice/cool to know that despite those differences, some people are still able to hold up?
    Well, no. Because they are not supposed to "hold up" to each other. Because they're not supposed to be competing for ranks with each other. Because they're different. This is a public leaderboard. It's about fairness in rankings.
    The both tab still has information that cannot exist without it.
    If you remove the both tab you cannot see when people hit the max level, and how many, compared to reboot.
    If 100 people are 275 on reg servers and 200 people are 275 on reboot... Without the both tab, how do you check how quickly each of those things happened?
    You can see 100 people at 275 on reg server, you can see 200 people at 275 on reboot, but you cannot tell how those two events developed in relation to each other.

    Being able to compare things that have a contrast is still useful and it's still something I'd like to be able to access.
    If we're going to keep or remove the both tab, I think it makes more sense to keep it as it's only information, which you may choose to ignore.
    Once the rankings are able to directly affect the game, then it might make sense to remove the both tab.
    For example, if the rankings gave MaplePoints to the top 100 players in the both tab, that would be unbalanced.
    I'll say it again just in case, players looking at the rankings and getting discouraged is not affecting game play directly.
    The rankings themselves, with or without the both tab, do not do anything to your ability to play the game.
    If your concern is about information being available then I point to my original suggestion of implementing the KMS ranking system which does this way better. It has several more search options than we do. It even includes the date when someone hit 250 and 275 in the Hall of Fame page. But they keep the main overall and job rankings separated, as they should be.
    Even with just removing our Both tab, you can still see how many 275s there are in comparison.
    And iirc the top maple runners were rewarded MP based on their rank, so it's not a foreign concept.

    I'll say it again as well, just in case;
    The rankings, in any type of competition, are a representation of which person is faster within each realm of possibility. The "Both" tab goes against this, it displays inaccurate information, it promotes competition between two unequal participants, and it should be removed.
    The "Both" tab is essentially Nexon saying that you can and should compare the two as if they were on equal terms, which they are not. I strongly believe that the joint rankings are to blame for a lot of the hostility and constant comparisons between the two server-concepts. Taking away the forced competition, ie "Both" ranking, would definitely help with this and avoid confusion for new players.

    While it does not directly affect game-play, it is directly affected by game-play. Reboot and regular servers are separated in almost every way in-game. They should be separate on rankings as well to reflect this.
    I'm honestly baffled it wasn't done earlier, when Reboot was released.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
    Reactions: 6,670
    Posts: 1,254
    Member, Private Tester
    edited March 2019
    HHG1 wrote: »
    If your concern is about information being available then I point to my original suggestion of implementing the KMS ranking system which does this way better. It has several more search options than we do. It even includes the date when someone hit 250 and 275 in the Hall of Fame page. But they keep the main overall and job rankings separated, as they should be.
    I agreed with this and I still do. But until such a date where we get the proper rankings page, I'd say both should stay.
    It adds the benefit of them not having to work on the page, being able to leave it as is, while they focus on preparing our site for the KMS system.
    IMO the most desirable options are KMS Page > Non-Default Both > Both > No Both.
  • pepepepe
    Reactions: 1,995
    Posts: 152
    Member
    edited March 2019
    AKradian wrote: »
    pepe wrote: »
    it's bizarre how fixated this community is on the rankings to the point where temper tantrums are thrown at the existence of an optional tab

    amazing

    It's bizarre how some human beings care, passionately even, about things that other human beings don't.

    Don't belittle others' concerns, just because you don't share them.

    Oh please save me the humility, this whole discussion hinges on an optional tab that shouldn't bother any sane man. There is nothing wrong with pointing out the obsessive nature of maintaining faux competition in our community.
    WONDERGUY
  • HHG1HHG1
    Reactions: 5,966
    Posts: 780
    Member, Private Tester
    edited March 2019
    pepe wrote: »
    AKradian wrote: »
    pepe wrote: »
    it's bizarre how fixated this community is on the rankings to the point where temper tantrums are thrown at the existence of an optional tab

    amazing

    It's bizarre how some human beings care, passionately even, about things that other human beings don't.

    Don't belittle others' concerns, just because you don't share them.

    Oh please save me the humility, this whole discussion hinges on an optional tab that shouldn't bother any sane man. There is nothing wrong with pointing out the obsessive nature of maintaining faux competition in our community.

    Cool opinion. But the issue is very black and white if you know what a ranking is in this context. It's not just a flat chronological list of all players as some of you seem to want it to be. If that was the case then you might as well merge the EU server rankings with NA, ignoring the clashing IGNs and the fact that EU had different circumstances than NA up until two years ago. Might as well bring the off-rank players back on board too to be extra inclusive and have all that "extra information" available.

    - Is the ranking of a competitive nature? Yes.
    - Are cheaters removed from rankings for gaining unfair advantages? Yes.
    - Do any of the servers have any native/built in advantage or disadvantage in the competition? Yes.
    - Does this advantage or disadvantage affect the rankings in any way? Yes.
    - Should these servers have separate rankings to keep the competition fair and accurate for both servers? Yes.

    That is what it boils down to, and that is why "Both" is not just an optional tab. It's a numbered competition between two unequal parties, and that makes it the only faux competition here. It is the reason many people feel the need to throw disregarding comments like "well reboot has higher exp so it doesn't count" or "reg server can just p2w so it doesn't count", because they are in this faux competition with each other that encourages the comparison of the two entirely different concepts as if they were equal, which is then perpetuated by Nexon keeping the "Both" tab where this competition takes full form.