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Community Topic Regarding Suicide Kanna

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  • WONDERGUYWONDERGUY
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    edited November 2019
    shouldn't this mean more people will go to real servers so we have a bigger population? Honestly maybe that could be a good thing, right?
    you can dream about bigger population in non-reboot, (definitely not GMS non-reboot with all the broken $$$ and cheaters)
    even after merge non-reboot still emty so enjoy your giggle while can

    the moment they reach the point of fully destorying reboot GMS will shutdown
    ( its allready on edge but hold tight on with no GMS team but CTRL C-CTRL V from KMS)

    the kanna suicde its not that big of a deal (only a bit for new players that we are not geting them anyway)
    also tthe unfair ban that they dont want give "2nd chance" to farmers will cost nexon alot especially when there is x person that got ban for macro/cheating but because of *****benefits got turn to off-rank only
  • StarryKnightStarryKnight
    Reactions: 1,625
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    edited November 2019
    Any 12 year old developer can add an integer to a player and say "You can only lose exp 3 times per level", then reset the counter on level-up. Boom, no more false bans.
    The goal of losing exp is to motivate players to *avoid* dying, not eliminate it altogether. Losing EXP more than three times per level is super easy, especially at high levels where you can spend months at the same level. If a player loses exp 3 times, over the course of several months, you think they should be permanently banned for that?
  • AggraphineAggraphine
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    edited November 2019
    Any 12 year old developer can add an integer to a player and say "You can only lose exp 3 times per level", then reset the counter on level-up. Boom, no more false bans.
    The goal of losing exp is to motivate players to *avoid* dying, not eliminate it altogether. Losing EXP more than three times per level is super easy, especially at high levels where you can spend months at the same level. If a player loses exp 3 times, over the course of several months, you think they should be permanently banned for that?

    So then we add a decay period to the counter. If no deaths/no level-ups in x-amount of days, reset counter.
    Fuhreak
  • StarryKnightStarryKnight
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    edited November 2019
    Aggraphine wrote:
    So then we add a decay period to the counter. If no deaths/no level-ups in x-amount of days, reset counter.
    I think this misunderstands the problem entirely. Dying is not the problem here, the vilification of it is. Dying is not a punishment, its a carrot on a stick. Its suppose to make you want to succeed more, it's not meant to be some kind of three strikes and your out rule. It never was.

    The only time dying is even an issue here is when we are talking specifically about suicide kanna's, and people are only caring because suicide kanna's have turned something that is meant to dissuade dying into something encouraging it. Ergo the whole "unintended gameplay".

    Punishing all players of all levels and all classes for making too many mistakes, forgetting to pot, forgetting to buy safety charms, forgetting to turn on pet, or just playing maple distracted or drunk, is not a solution, its stupid. You're all suggesting things that would basically kill the game. No one wants to play a game where having a bad day is enough to get you banned.

    How about people stop making suggestions that punish people for making mistakes, or just playing badly. Implementing a rule like this is absurd, and even if you aimed to only apply it to kanna's, and only during the level ranges of which suicide kanna's is a thing, it would still be singling out an entire class, and punishing players for incidental game mechanics that are fundamentally built into the game.

    No, these are not good solutions. If you want a reasonable solution, the simpler ones are better. Eliminate exp loss on death, entirely. Boom, every conceivable problem from this is solved. And yet, even that is a bad solution, because now dying doesn't mean anything, its a meaningless action, might as well make everyone not lose health too..

    How about a way to have a character turn off exp growth? Then kanna farmers dont need to suicide, thus can't violate any kind of "intended gameplay" rules. It's a better solution, but then the hackers will simply turn their exp growth off too. Fine, let them, but how about the game detects when a player has farmed a map non-stop for 24 straight hours, and find a way to do more intensive bot detection then? Maybe do an actual captcha? Some hackers will eventually solve that one, but its an infinitely better idea than treating people who die, for whatever reason, as though they've done something wrong.

    That's just not a good idea, period.
    WONDERGUYtestll8806darik
  • HakubiHakubi
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    Just came back from a long hiatus, booked time off work, made food for then next few days, getting set up to pull an all nighter to the update and seen this.
    There is zero way to progress on Reboot in my eyes now outside of doing daily Ursus for 40 years straight and even that wouldn't be enough. I'm a fairy new player and my Kanna was only 1 line meso and the 20% IA so I never got to do it... but they sure are intent on killing this game. No intended shift of the meta as a workaround for Reboot either. You're pretty much forced into stagnation. What are people going to actually be doing for meso now? Arcane Kanna got smacked with it too so it's not like they increased the barrier to entry. Farming on mains (like my hero) isn't very viable. Rolling alts isn't profitable. I think they're honestly sick of supporting the server if this is their stance. No pottable badges, couple hundred billion meso behind the people playing for years and never going to bridge the gap because the grind just got exponentially worse.

    Bye bye farming was horrible from the looks of it but there was nothing to replace it which is the real issue here. I can't see a silver lining to this. I guess I'll check back in a few years hopefully something has changed for the better.
    WONDERGUYtestll8806
  • VinsaneVinsane
    Reactions: 2,110
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    edited November 2019
    Botters aren't coming up with creative methods, more like simple older methods they've revisited. Perhaps GM's could visit an old simple method, that utilizes a recording system (a public programs that comes standard with any computer) and leave it running in well-known botters map for 24 hours and that should be more then enough too find out whose legit or not without hurting the player base while without revising the rules. It's has i would say, if you need to explain it more then once to make a point it's not good, period.
  • HHG1HHG1
    Reactions: 5,986
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    edited November 2019
    Aggraphine wrote:
    So then we add a decay period to the counter. If no deaths/no level-ups in x-amount of days, reset counter.
    I think this misunderstands the problem entirely. Dying is not the problem here, the vilification of it is. Dying is not a punishment, its a carrot on a stick. Its suppose to make you want to succeed more, it's not meant to be some kind of three strikes and your out rule. It never was.

    The only time dying is even an issue here is when we are talking specifically about suicide kanna's, and people are only caring because suicide kanna's have turned something that is meant to dissuade dying into something encouraging it. Ergo the whole "unintended gameplay".

    Punishing all players of all levels and all classes for making too many mistakes, forgetting to pot, forgetting to buy safety charms, forgetting to turn on pet, or just playing maple distracted or drunk, is not a solution, its stupid. You're all suggesting things that would basically kill the game. No one wants to play a game where having a bad day is enough to get you banned.

    How about people stop making suggestions that punish people for making mistakes, or just playing badly. Implementing a rule like this is absurd, and even if you aimed to only apply it to kanna's, and only during the level ranges of which suicide kanna's is a thing, it would still be singling out an entire class, and punishing players for incidental game mechanics that are fundamentally built into the game.

    No, these are not good solutions. If you want a reasonable solution, the simpler ones are better. Eliminate exp loss on death, entirely. Boom, every conceivable problem from this is solved. And yet, even that is a bad solution, because now dying doesn't mean anything, its a meaningless action, might as well make everyone not lose exp too.

    How about a way to have a character turn off exp growth? Then kanna farmers dont need to suicide, thus don't aren't violating any kind of "intended gameplay" rules. Better solution, but then the hackers will simply turn their exp growth off too. Fine, let them, but how about the game detects when a player has farmed a map non-stop for 24 straight hours, and find a way to do more intensive bot detection then? Maybe do an actual captcha? Some hackers will eventually solve that one, but its an infinitely better idea than treating people who die, for whatever reason, as though they've done something wrong.

    That's just not a good idea, period.

    I don't think they meant that you get banned if you die more than 3 times per level, they mean that you stop losing exp for a period of time after 3 deaths. And if they don't die during that period of time they will start losing exp upon death again, or it will be reset on the next level. That's how I understood it anyway.
    So it'd help players get pushed forward, even if they have bad days. It's not a punishment.
    That system could be abused though, for free permanent safety charm effect. (Die at low %, get period of not losing exp, die during period, period of not losing exp continues, period resets at level up, repeat)
    Better if it's a set period of time instead of depending on a player action during the period.

    Eliminating exp loss entirely would make the abuse of low level maps quite impossible, but we'd also see more high level hackers and need new detection methods, some that possibly renders more false-positives.
    Turning off exp growth would encourage abuse of low level maps, and also greatly benefit hackers. So it'd directly go against Nexon's intentions.
    And captchas are just a temporary bump in the road, hackers will get around it in a week or two.

    I personally still think sticking to the autoban is the best solution for now. They get to keep detecting bots using the method, and legit players are encouraged to go for higher level content and other meta. Rapid suicide at your own risk, because the bans will be upheld, essentially.
    And we're not talking about the couple of deaths you'd get on a bad day. It's very hard to replicate it unintentionally.
    CrispHotdogFuhreak
  • CrispHotdogCrispHotdog
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    edited November 2019
    I couldn't care less about the bots that exploit auto-death, bots do a million and one other things that make them stand out like a house on fire. This form of detection is not worth the cost to gameplay. Why this game hasn't got a server sided captcha is beyond me, it would stop hackers in their tracks. They'd need something like an artificial intelligence to get around it. Furthermore if the reward for solving such a captcha was actually decent (say, a low chance tier up miracle cube if you got the captcha right) people would be alot more okay with receiving one.

    Although I somewhat sympthasize with the few who nobly say it's not 'what's meant to happen', I in fact believe this is a false statement. For starters Maplestory developers designed the kanna class for the very purpose of helping other players level and gain funds, particularly in reboot. It has had this purpose for over half a decade now and in my opinion nexon needs to make meso aquisition easier if they are going to change such a core mechanic to funding. Otherwise expect a mass exodus of players. Furthermore %Meso gear will essentially become useless should kannas be banned. Could you imagine spending the countless hours to get max meso% on a kanna so that you can invest in funding your other characters, only to have that kanna locked to farming highler level monster maps that do not actually give nearly as much funds as the lower level maps? In reboot you can't even transfer this gear to another character! We're talking months of hard work here down the drain.

    Tldr: My bottom line is If Nexon want's to change the mechanic (which is in fact the foundation of funding for most reboot players), then fine. But they better be prepared to follow it up with alternative new and novel way to get meso. And it better not have a darn limit cap, I'd prefer to have the option of spending 20 hours of grinding to get X, then 20 days of 1 hour grinding. That's a whole other can of worms but I believe this 'daily cap' mechanic is a thorn in player retention.

    WONDERGUYdarik
  • StarryKnightStarryKnight
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    edited November 2019
    I don't think they meant that you get banned if you die more than 3 times per level, they mean that you stop losing exp for a period of time after 3 deaths. And if they don't die during that period of time they will start losing exp upon death again, or it will be reset on the next level. That's how I understood it anyway.
    If so, then my mistake. I would have assumed, like you, that such a move would simply get abused as free infinite safety charms for the day, thus it seemed unlikely that was the intention, but perhaps.
  • abctiger8abctiger8
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    I'll be honest, I'm not familiar with the debate. From what it seems like,
    Bye bye farming was horrible from the looks of it but there was nothing to replace it which is the real issue here
    this is the real issue here. However, I did see a lot of bots farm a whole map where I had to complete my quests, preventing me from leveling up. So, good riddance that they are actually doing something about it. I doubt that people who used suicide kannas are rarely humans and not a hack or a bot.

    But even leveling up is a problem. I've been playing on and off since 2005, and I have never even reached lvl 200 on one character.
  • PyroPyro
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    edited November 2019
    How about people stop making suggestions that punish people for making mistakes, or just playing badly.
    Didn't read everything anyone said, but it looks like you're interpreting my suggestion as saying we should keep the bans. My suggestion was meant to be you can die an infinite amount of times but only drop a max of 30% exp. The decay idea from Aggraphine would be a nice addition to the functionality.

    Edit: Was reading a little more and that does seem to be the case. Free safety-charms would be easily exploitable by suiciding 3 times at 0%. Maybe something more along the lines of -30% per day (or maybe X% per X minutes). Instead of counting deaths, it counts the % down to the decimal. It'll be hard to stay at one level (the way nexon wants it), and it'll still make you lose hard work if you die (like nobody wants but everyone gets :D)

    Anyways, banning was the wrong solution. There's a better solution somewhere out there.
  • darikdarik
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    edited December 2019
    abctiger8 wrote: »
    I'll be honest, I'm not familiar with the debate. From what it seems like,
    Bye bye farming was horrible from the looks of it but there was nothing to replace it which is the real issue here
    this is the real issue here. However, I did see a lot of bots farm a whole map where I had to complete my quests, preventing me from leveling up. So, good riddance that they are actually doing something about it. I doubt that people who used suicide kannas are rarely humans and not a hack or a bot.

    But even leveling up is a problem. I've been playing on and off since 2005, and I have never even reached lvl 200 on one character.

    I agree the main iasue is that they nerfed the ways to get meso on reboot and people had to resort to suicide kanna, if they fixes the meso curve on reboot we wouldnt be talking about this right now
    What i disagree with u ia in the leveling department, i just made a new account and in 3 days with moderante playing i reached 140 without any issues at all and with burning events and everything, getting to 200 is super easy these days to the point that if u sont reach it its because ure lazy lets be honest
    WONDERGUY
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited December 2019
    darik wrote: »
    What i disagree with u ia in the leveling department, i just made a new account and in 3 days with moderante playing i reached 140 without any issues at all and with burning events and everything, getting to 200 is super easy these days to the point that if u sont reach it its because ure lazy lets be honest

    I agree. I'm even a pretty lazy person myself.
    I've already hit 215 on the tera burn character and all of the 200+ grind was done while sick. Grind really isn't that hard anymore.
    Yes there were 3x coupons, yes I'm on reboot. Moot point. I will remind that I don't use a lot of non-KMS things including Kanna, Gollux or Fury totems.
    A little bit of motivation (the 20k MaplePoints) was all I needed to grind at a decent rate even without those other things.
    Pyro wrote: »
    Anyways, banning was the wrong solution. There's a better solution somewhere out there.

    I still say that banning people for abusing game mechanics for gain on a scale this grand is easily bannable.
  • AggraphineAggraphine
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    edited December 2019
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    darik wrote: »
    What i disagree with u ia in the leveling department, i just made a new account and in 3 days with moderante playing i reached 140 without any issues at all and with burning events and everything, getting to 200 is super easy these days to the point that if u sont reach it its because ure lazy lets be honest

    I agree. I'm even a pretty lazy person myself.
    I've already hit 215 on the tera burn character and all of the 200+ grind was done while sick. Grind really isn't that hard anymore.
    Yes there were 3x coupons, yes I'm on reboot. Moot point. I will remind that I don't use a lot of non-KMS things including Kanna, Gollux or Fury totems.
    A little bit of motivation (the 20k MaplePoints) was all I needed to grind at a decent rate even without those other things.
    Pyro wrote: »
    Anyways, banning was the wrong solution. There's a better solution somewhere out there.

    I still say that banning people for abusing game mechanics for gain on a scale this grand is easily bannable.

    I agree with this, but still feel that handing out bans before saying anything, then having the public statement retroactively apply to these bans is pretty skeevy and shouldn't have happened.
    Fuhreak