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Community Topic Regarding Suicide Kanna
Comments
Why on earth would using a skill that's designed to save your life, to save your life, be bannable? That's what it was designed to do.
EXP lose on death wasn't designed as a reward. It was designed as a punishment. Players turning it into a reward is abuse.
and yet dying give you the lost of exp like iframe give invincibility, so why I can't use both of them to my advantage. Nexon doesn't like the outcome of one of them change it instead of telling us don't use it. the nature of humankind is working with the tools we have, take those tools and we can't use them anymore. cut the bullshit don't tell me I have the option for an easy life and I can't use it, remove the option end of discussion. I don't want it to be legal the suicide thing just remove the fking option if u don't like how ppl take advantage of this remove it!!!
It's not even a comparison.
The only thing that you can reasonably make a case for is the hat-status disappearing when dying in Pierre. But feel free to make a suggestion/bug report on that if you want.
Now you do have a point here and quite frankly I'm still more of a newbie who's only played this game for about 4 months. It still brings up the question why "Suicide Kanna = An Exploit" discussion wasn't brought up for that period of a MINIMUM of 4 months even when a complete newbie like me could learn about it from the community. It really implies that Nexon as a company do not understand the functions of their own game and needs to always act retroactively when something like the false ban waves occurred and the community is outraged. Heck your words even suggest that if these false ban waves wasn't there Nexon would still have no official statement on Suicide Kannas.
This is how it is KMS, anyway, with the Wind Archer's Howling Gale bug not fixed for nearly 3 years vs Pathfinder's Raven Tempest, the aforementioned "bug" of Shield Chasing for Demon Avengers, and even the Night Lord's Spread Throw controversy where KMS buffed the skill in question without testing it and only listening to community then realizing they done goofed--It's definitely not proper that the developer/publisher of the game knows less than players or consumers.
The argument I have against this is what if they're not actually using hacks or macros, but actually playing the game? Even with the initial ban waves I still farmed at Byebye, and I personally thought that the reason why I wasn't blocked from the game was because I actually controlled my character continuously and never used a macro/bot/hacks like other plays may have or used suspicious dying mechanics (and subsequently it was these players who were banned). It also brings the question why it was at this certain point the autoban system decided to arbitrarily kick in and start banning people who "abused" suicide Kannas, instead of when it was a thing 4 months ago. That is of course, if that autoban was put in place to specifically combat against Suicide Kannas, which is obviously not the case as seen with Nexon admitting to "false bans".
I guess my point here is that the autoban was there to combat hackers--that's fine, but now that it's hit some others who may or may not have been guilty Nexon makes this a problem for the entire server which includes innocent players by restricting the practice altogether
I feel like I should reinforce my previous posts--people are pissed about the ban of suicide kannas. This is a fact. However, I think there would have been far less outrage or backlash if the following traits weren't present:
1) Nexon seemingly had no comment on this practice for at the minimum of 4 months
2) This was a retroactive statement following a series of autoban features they might have implemented that didn't kick in until now
3) There's really no proper logic for this to be considered an exploit, noting it as "unintended behavior" which can be extrapolated into other arguments
4) There are still other serious bugs or detrimental factors (e.g. hackers) that Nexon does not (or cannot) resolve
(I guess a good analogy here is if someone you hate did something to offend you vs if someone you liked did the same thing--you'd probably react a lot differently just because of your previous viewpoint with them and it's kinda the same thing here)
It kinda is. A lot of these skills have a large delay. I have a Pathfinder sub-main so Nova Blast for example, but how about a Marksman's True Sniping (oh my god imagine this skill not having iframes I'm legit lol'ing right now at the imagination), and many of the bosses have one-shot mechanics that if you got hit with during the usage of the skill, would cancel it altogether. Sure--if you git gud and know when to use these high-delay skills (e.g. with binds) that might work but not only do most classes not have a class-bind there's still the risk of bugs that might happen with canceled skills that can all be alleviated with just a short iframe. Thus these iframes aren't really meant for you to cheese or tank boss mechanics (and there's absolutely no boss mechanic all the way up to the Black Mage that MANDATES an iframe so this kinda supports that claim as well)
If you're not satisfied with this analogy, how about the common practice of using mules for significantly more advantageous benefits, such as Wild Hunter for the superior Sharp Eyes (30% Crit Damage vs 15% for other archers or 8% for DSE) and Call of the Wild (+10% attack) and Bishops for Heaven's Door which was utilized for ages in content such as Mu Lung Dojo and bossing? Though it's patched for both Dojo and the newly revamped Ghost Park it's still utilized for bossing as you can see in various KMS clips. These players receive significant advantages such as not needing to use their DSE and empty a slot in the V-Matrix for another node or blatant buffs and additional death count
How about Kishin mules and a 2 PC meta if you feel like the analogy should be GMS-tailored? I feel as if Nexon is fully aware of this issue since they did release Fury Totems (though it's limited and quite frankly a bit expensive), but this gives a significant advantage for people who have 2 machines (whether physical or virtual) and can be considered unintended behavior since you're getting the advantage of Kishin without actually playing on the Kanna, not to mention the people who use a Kishin mule often do so with a macro to refresh the Kishin which is explicitly against Nexon's Terms of Service.
These are just examples of "strategies" that players developed, implemented, and utilized over the years within the boundaries of the game system. Suicide Kanna just happens to be another one in that list along with many others I'm too dumb to think of right now.
It might not be a good practice to interpret everything you see on the internet as memes especially when there's effort for a serious debate. You contribute nothing even towards the argument supporting this ban announcement and it only makes you look bad
They might have changed the logic of the autoban to hit more people. Before this most people spaced out their death times to avoid an autoban, some died consecutively until 0% and the autoban didn't even trigger. There is obviously some kind of condition that would've triggered it in the past but I feel like nexon changed it recently and broadened it under the pretence that it was always illegal to suicide anyway. If this is true it would mean that nexon specifically targeted the suicide kanna meta in order to bring it to an end.
I don't disagree that Nexon tends to be more reactive than proactive though.
Again, it was not intended to be used this way, manually or not, which Nexon now has publicly stated as it became a larger topic of discussion. I went into detail of why I think it was more or less obvious in the thread I linked on page 1.
The autoban is still there to combat hackers, and now also to deter people from staying the same level, at the same map, forever to profit off of outdated and unbalanced content, just like the hackers do. That behavior has been discouraged time after time, if you pay attention.
In addition, Malaysia is probably the next piece of content to get removed anyway, especially since it overlaps with KMS content (Fantasy Theme Park).
There is a huge difference between strategically timed skills that offer iframes either as a trade-off or specifically to allow you to cheat death in a situation where life count is crucial, and the man-made meta of suicide kanna.
There is no mandatory use of iframes, unless you want to solo. But there are lots of reasons why they've been made available to you, unlike suiciding.
What I would argue might not be intended with iframes is the use of them in jump quests. Unsure if they've made any effort to combat that or not. Perhaps just locking skill-use in some.
Again, it's clearly something they've been cracking down as you mentioned with nerfs, etc. It's getting the "leeching treatment" while the suicide method largely benefits hackers specifically so they need to keep the autoban in place as a hacker-trap, for now at least.
If they implement better ways to catch and manage hackers in the future they might revisit the idea of limiting or removing exp loss to make the meta impossible instead, but for now it's enough to say "hey don't do this because it's not allowed and you will get banned".
Again, that's something that's still a topic and they've made some progress with, as small as it may be. I imagine they're still looking at the situation. You're not wrong that it's an equally unhealthy meta though. I don't think many people disagree.
Suicide kanna being addressed now, as it was a big and somewhat urgent topic (because of the bans), does not mean that other issues will never get addressed. I hope you understand that.
There's a bug-report section on the forum as well as suggestions if you feel inclined to bring something up. Making a fuss on reddit is also an option.
So, assuming that the intention of attack skills is to attack, which is logical, then its also reasonable to say that using iframes from attacking skills should be considered abuse in the same way dying to lose exp is. Thus, its actually an acceptable argument here, because it simply applies the same logic used to condemn suicide farming and applies it to another situation. This type of argument is called a reductio ad absurdum, and it's goal is to demonstrate that if we apply the same logic equally to other situations, it results in absurdity. Whether you believe it is a compelling argument doesn't mean it isn't a fair argument to make.
I disagree. It was never a punishment, it is an inevitable consequence of simply playing the game. To claim that it is a punishment is to imply that players who die have committed some offence. In games, certain actions have certain consequences, that's all there is to it. Whether you view those consequences as beneficial or detrimental depends almost entirely on the use of the consequence in game. You could argue that the loss of exp was intended to be detrimental, but you can't say it was intended to be a punishment, and just because it was intended to be a detriment, does not mean that it *must* be a detriment.
To bring it full circle, a consequence of certain skill animations is frames of the animation where the player is invulnerable, using those frames to avoid a ohko instead of using an attacking skill to, you know, attack... is not an intention that that the skill is designed to be used for, hence why the reductio argument works. You may not find it compelling, but it still applies. I've not made the argument in this thread because I think there are better arguments, but It has more merit than you seem willing to grant.
So you've never had a map kished while training? You don't have Gollux gear, or commerci gear, and don't use a Kanna? Surely you can understand how that sounds suspicious, right? Did you also not level a Kanna for legion, and never used a kanna link skill?
Not doing these things for the sake of not doing these things is not really a challenge, in fact, NOT doing content is easy. What it is, is a voluntary boat anchor chained to your ankle. Worse, it makes you nearly un-party-able for end game content, save someone pitying you enough to give you a carry. I would assume, if the above is true, you've not done much current end game content.
Weren't you the one that claimed party play is the aspect of the game you miss most and wish it played a more prominent role throughout maple? Yet you refuse to do the very content that makes you an equally contributing member of party play....
Honestly, it sounds a bit closer to virtue signaling than playing the game on challenge mode. You might as well be wearing a purity ring...
Now, you're gonna say that dying intentionally to receive that time of invincibility after death might be abuse, and while it technically could be, there is also a trade-off in most situations where you'll lose a life that you might need. An example of this is inexperienced players intentionally dying before the test-phase in Will to not cause the test to fail, or dying to be invincible while putting on drop gear. (I quote this later too, but the resurrection timer was added to prevent and limit some other profits of staying dead in a boss fight.)
Those are things that Nexon could potentially prevent if they want to. But again, it's not directly associated with hackers like suiciding is, which is why that's bannable and not just prevented.
I also imagine it would be much harder to create an autoban for that type of thing (instead of adjusting skills and boss mechanics as usual), than it is to detect multiple deaths that result in excessive exp loss.
If it's not intended or acceptable behavior, that is.
The ones that are part of an attack are usually there to ensure your survival during that attack, to make up for the attack costing HP or potentially putting you in a more dangerous spot after the attack, if you use it with any other intention than to do damage, you lose the burst/DoT/debuff and still have to wait out the cooldown or charge it up again. That's the trade-off.
The amount of iframe skills a class has and how the skill itself works is a matter of balancing. And BoD is just generally broken, but that's a different discussion.
If anything it just further proves that it's Nexon's intention to give you every chance to stay alive, not reward you for dying. Not that it needs proving, since they've said it themselves now.
If something is designed and intended to be a detriment, then using it for large profit is abuse and exploitation. That's why it's labelled as unintended behavior.
I know you've replied to this before but I'll quote myself from the older thread (prior to this announcement) for context;
So once again, it's very clearly intended to be a detriment, while iframes are not.
Could iframes be balanced and limited further? Sure.
Are they equal to intentionally taking advantage of a mechanic that was designed as a detriment, to then eternally stay in one area of the game for profit, legit players and hackers alike? No.
My point was *specifically* with respect to *attacks* that happen to contain iframes due to the way the animations work, for those I would say are clearly not "intended" to be used for defense (or rather, are not clearly described in game as permitted to be used for defense). Using an *attacking* skill, to defend against death, because it has iframes, is clearly counter to the "intended" purpose of "attacking".
If it were intended to be used in this way, then why do some characters not have iframes? For example: Night Lord. You might say Dark Sight, but both Shadower and Night Walker have iframes AND dark sight, so clearly one cant say Dark Sight is the reason, and clearly this puts both of these classes at an advantage over Night Lord in boss fights. So IF you're claiming that using attacking skills to avoid enemy attacks that would otherwise kill the player is legitimate gameplay, it would seem to say that Nexon has intentionally advantaged certain classes and disadvantaged others.
SO I think it fair to say using attacking skills to avoid boss mechanics is not intended gameplay. Ergo, I would say you've not satisfied the warrant of your claim that iframes on attacking skills are intended to be used in that manner. Thus yes, these both fall under the same category of "not intended gameplay", whether you feel one is more or less egregious is besides the point, a reductio argument still applies, you just don't find it compelling.
So while I mostly agree with you, the clear delineation between which of these is a violation and which of these is not, is still not so obvious as one might assume at first glance. I'm not saying its a good argument, Im just saying that the situation is more similar than most seem willing to admit.
Prior to the recent clarification, one could have turned that on its head and said that losing exp when dying "proves that it's nexon's intention" that you have the ability to prevent yourself from leveling. So it might be preemptive to assume that Nexon has iframes in attacking skills intentionally to provide you the opportunity to avoid boss mechanics. More than likely they are an unintended and difficult to eliminate consequence of the way the skills are animated.
Remember that Nexon had to design/program that attack to specifically make you gain iframes.
Either the skill is supposed to help you survive during the attack or make sure you absolutely survive during the attack.
It would be pretty hard to accidentally design/program iframes into an attack.
I don't think it's a good comparison, but I understand the reasoning behind it.
EXP Loss on death is a universal thing that is only removed in key situations.
I think this more than enough proves that you aren't supposed to die in the field if you can help it.
They remove the EXP loss on death in certain spots of the game because they except you to die.
In these areas where they expect you to die, EXP loss is removed. Why in these areas would they remove EXP loss?
There's plenty of subjectivity to dying in the field to lose EXP on purpose in a way. However, Nexon has stated now that this is objectively bannable.
I suppose humanity can't be trusted to not abuse things.
Beyond a certain point the punishment aspect of an unexpected death becomes a bit too strong imo.
Plenty of other MMOs have EXP loss on death, but those more often don't have anything easily abused like MS does.
Removing the EXP penalty on death just might be a valid final nail in the coffin for this issue.
However if Nexon does do this, they need to be sure to add droplets to 245+ areas in Arcane River.
Are you also going to say that an attack skill that also adds a debuff or DoT to the target is not used as intended if you're just using the skill to apply the debuff or DoT without caring about the immediate damage the attack itself does? What about an attack that is also a mobility skill?
Skills can have multiple intended uses, especially those that carry multiple functions.
No, I would not say that, because Dark Sight is not an iframe and doesn't protect you against anything and everything.
And yes, some classes have more utility than others. Some have more mobility. Some have harder hitting attacks. Some have more iframes than they need. Again, that's a balancing issue completely unrelated to suicide bans.
I did admit some similarities within specific situations and those are things that can be improved upon if Nexon sees fit. But it still doesn't draw the conclusion that using skills that offer invincibility frames to become invincible is not intended gameplay.
Theoretical arguments that lead to absurd levels are fun and all, but practice and context is ultimately what's going to matter here. It's also my personal preference to not engage in endless hyperbolic examples since they're rarely grounded in reality. Much like this "iframe = suicide kanna" side-track.
It's a good thing they've clarified it then. All we're doing here is make assumptions after all, mine just happened to be aligned with Nexon on this one.
I'll await word on the iframes, your theory about the animation is interesting but even if that were the case, Nexon has clearly embraced the iframes as an intended function of the skills that are affected. Some bosses also have iframes.
Either way it still has no impact on whether suicide kanna is abuse or not, since that has already been established for various reasons.
Have you forgotten this account's access was confirmed to be engaging in character skill cooldown manipulation activity directly, the reason for this permanent ban on normal gamers?
I mostly agree.
Also agreed.
Thats what I said... So, also agreed.
Any 12 year old developer can add an integer to a player and say "You can only lose exp 3 times per level", then reset the counter on level-up. Boom, no more false bans. Or they can take the difficult route and finally fix their system that was probably intended for all the vac hackers, but which also triggers on legit players too often. They'll probably take the "Do Nothing" route though.
there is huge miscommunication in nexonNA team and nexonKorea Team with what things to do
(neither of them play GMS or chek-know the issue )
just a week before they MEMoE their statements was
they can meso farm nerf as they want and force players for longer play time
but baning-hurt their legit players more instead of illegitimate players, just adds more wood on fire so players cant cope with but leave the game
I semi apologize but I'm reading this and giggling knowing that in a real maplestory world (aka: not Reboot) you get a few mil just for training in archana maps for an hour or more. Merching is also beneficial yet. The notion of suicide kanna is just too funny I cant quite understand what the big deal is but shouldn't this mean more people will go to real servers so we have a bigger population? Honestly maybe that could be a good thing, right?
This might be the most ignorant, self-serving thing I've seen you post so far. I don't know where to even begin with you. "Not a real experience"? "Real servers"? Wanting an entire server to die so "your" server can have a larger population? What is actually wrong with you?