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Check out the v.254 - Midnight Carnival - Ludibrium Patch Notes
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Closed Changes to Drop Rate Formula Confirmation
Comments
i only mentioned my pursuit of the degree to paint a picture of my age. the longer the responses are, the more you seem to be invested in this, personally. Doesnt matter if you try to mask it with pseudo-logic but the underlying issue is you guys are taking the change way too personal. Now Im not saying economics is pseudo-logic, but more how you use it in congruence with the passive aggressiveness of getting the point across.
Analysis is good and all when youre not focused on a single detail. Probability shows that Nexon implements nerfs and implements re-balances. That passive aggressiveness tactic you guys use to get points across only gets your points dismissed. Backing people into corners but then mentioning words like "logic and reasoning" to play it off like it's some objective analysis. My responses have all been the same, that Nexon usually implements counter measures for these types of changes. Maybe not now, but they will later on. If youre trying to be analytical, previous updates and changes would show this is true.
and let the record show that I have barely even addressed you.
Here is Nexon's official response.
Q: What changes were made to the drop rate formula?
A: ~ The specific changes will not be released to the public. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Q: Does drop rate even affect Nodes and Symbols at all?
A: ~ Drop rate does affect Nodes and Symbols.
Q: If drop rate does affect Nodes and Symbols, what is the maximum %?
A: ~ You can have a maximum cap of 300% drop rate from item potentials; however, potions, buffs, and abilities' drop rate modifiers will not have a cap. In the case of Nodestones, the base drop rate of Nodestones was increased which helps players without drop rate gears, but changes were made so that additional drop rate multipliers will be applied in smaller increments. (Drop rate gear will be less effective at getting nodestone drops than before, but drop rate modifiers will still increase the drop rate of nodestones.)
Source : http://www.insoya.com/bbs/zboard.php?id=maple_info&category=2&divpage=2&no=36694
The Reddit post that you copied clearly states that this is the official response for Korean Maplestory, as all of these sources are KMS based. Do not misrepresent this as an official response for GMS, you can make the assumption that we will get the same changes as other MapleStory services as many do, but a misrepresentation of this as an official response for GMS is against the forums ToS
it isnt a misrepresentation because if they get the 300% cap, we will get the same 300% cap for gear.
thats 1.
2. I didnt say this is a GMS official response, it says it in the reddit link "in kms"
3. You guys are citing data and results from kms players and their drop results, but now that I posted this it is a totally different thing?
like I said before, dont put words in my mouth and dont try to back people into walls or corners.
I linked the source which is the reddit link and the reddit user linked his source. You cant really say what Im doing is against the ToS because theres no claim that this is Nexon America's response to the changes coming up. what I posted is a Q and A about the drop rate changes, that we will get, according to you guys that NA copies and pastes the changes directly from KMS, we can assume these pieces of information will apply to us. thats how analysis works.
and if I am doing something against the ToS, the mods or admin will tell me Ive done something against the rules.
We as GMS players have had no confirmation from Arwoo or patch notes that the change is 300% cap, like I said we can make assumptions that we will get the same changes as KMS as long as we don't designate it as "Official", none of my posts or anyone elses posts have designated KMS based information as official GMS based information so I think it is you who put words into my mouth this time around. The reddit post correctly stated that this was KMS information and unless a user clicked on their link or read all of the URL there was no wording in your post that the "official" part applied to the Korean MapleStory service, that was the only issue.
They dont have to click the link to read that it says KMS in the link. The probability the GMS cap for drop gear will be different to KMS drop gear cap is low.
but let me ask this now, having cited KMS players' results with the new changes in node farming, why was it that the outcry was an absolute like we would have the same results when as you said it was all assumptions and speculations?
why is it that when I brought this to attention now, did the outcry change to assumptions and speculations from them being an absolute. Is it to discredit that this information may apply to us?
If we cant take the KMS response for what it is, why should we use the KMS players results as a standing point to oppose the changes?
if thats your reasoning, Ill have to say youre incorrect. If that were the case, I wouldve just posted the cropped version of it saying here is the official response, that wouldve gotten me in trouble, I wouldnt have gotten away with it. Your perception of me and how you think im trying to portray myself is whats making you think these things. If youve noticed throughout my responses, I havent made things personal with any of you. Ive only mentioned about taking things as a challenge, and yes, to stop throwing tantrums ( not directed towards you specifially) but I mentioned that to those making this a spectacle.
But never have I said anyone is delusional, arrogant, ignorant, or any other personal attack. Bu the record shows thats how Ive been treated, which isnt a big deal but shows our real character.
You can try to paint me as rude and antagonistic all you like, but you may want to read through the record again as I've done nothing but respectfully disagree with you and point out the discrepancy in the official nature of that post; the forum moderators, of course, have final judgement in that matter. I would suggest to anyone to not describe something as official unless it directly references an official source or it is the official source, I don't see why I would have to argue that suggestion any further. If you do take issue with this and feel the need to discuss it further, feel free to pm me as a courtesy to others who are trying to read relevant comments.
youre implying thats what I did. it doesnt say it is GMS official response, I dont understand why you keep mentioning this. Insoya is naturally a Korean site, and the reddit link has kms in the link name. no where does it claim it is official gms response. so there was no reason to even bring this up. Like I said, if it was to discredit the validity of the assessment that our drop gear cap will most likely be the same as theirs and to give light to the fact that this thread has mainly overreactions, then we will have to wait and see.
if you guys can cite KMS information, I can cite KMS information, and I did, but in no way did I claim it was GMS information.
This is a GMS part of the forums so Official in this section means GMS official, again please PM me if you have any further issues with anything I've said.
This isn't about you not being able to oppose the majority. It's about you treating what the majority says as "misguided" and completely unfounded. It's about you saying everyone is "crying" and "throwing tantrums." Do you really think you can just get away with insulting people like that and expect not to get a negative reaction? You think you can just brush off every thought out argument as "overreacting" and "taking this too personal", "the longer [responses] get"? You're absolutely laughable if so.
You're just looking to start something by saying "quit crying" to one of the biggest and most game changing nerfs that'll ever have hit. Do you really think people can just brush this nerf off the way you think it would go, while they're already this deep into complaining about it? You underestimate the gravity of this nerf. We're talking double the amounts of time to farm nodes and droplets, while you keep saying "this is just more of a challenge" and treating everyone's statements as overreaction. How about I double your work hours and half your pay for the rest of your employment? That's "just more of a challenge," isn't it? And don't act as if GMS isn't going to just copypaste code over and get the same exact nerf as KMS. They've been doing that for years.
And then when people do put up with your elitism and try to put up a "fair and decent" argument (because you keep asking for one), you dismiss that too and say that it's "pseudo-logic" and that you're being "backed into a corner." And then every bit of actual data you dismiss as well off the basis that it's just as dismissable as DPM charts, which are way different of a statistic. Yeah, maybe you are backed into a corner. You've lost the argument already, so to stay in it, you're resorting to delegitimising everyone else's logic. Is there nothing these unworthy masses can present to satisfy a superior figure such as you? Likely not. If you're going to keep thinking that the arguments of everyone that disagree with you are absolutely worthless, then you're never going to get one you could possibly deem "worthy." That's your tactic for shutting down and looking down on your opposition.
And it never works.
I'm only restating what I've said before. You act like a sneering elitist one moment, and when there's no one on your side, instead of backing off or providing an actual argument, you play the victim. And then when no one's lookng, you climb back onto your high horse and repeat. That'll be about enough of that. Take a look at how other people like Spirit or Nyara present their opinions. They don't agree with everyone, but they don't act all rude and call everyone's thinking "misguided" or "clouded" or "pseudo-logic" like you do. They don't say everyone is "crying" or "throwing tantrums" and treating them like their complaining is of no significance, like you do.
Come down to Earth and maybe you'll be a little better received.
im not playing the victim, Im illustrating your tactics, tactics I dont care to partake in. I wont be addressing your comments on me being a victim or getting on my high horse and all that bs. Ill assume youre an adult so Ill treat you like one. This isnt about picking sides. I can only speak for myself. Your personal vendetta against me didnt let you see that I was never debating whether or not GMS copies KMS in changes. I even used it as support to my claim that if KMS has a new cap of 300% drop rate, we will be getting that too.
ok so using your own post about GMS copying KMS, we can certainly assert the new drop rate gear cap is 300% right and that drop rate multipliers and inner ability arent affected by the nerf only gear. We can assert that they wont tell us the drop rate formula and how it's going to work math wise, just that we shouldnt over extend. according to the post i linked from a reddit user that linked/translated from the korean site insoya, thats what KMS has a cap of. and like Ive said before, even if we both have 300% drop rate now, it doesnt mean we will yield the same results in farming. you may get more or I may get more in the same amount of time.
For the record, you cant double my hours and cut my pay, by law you would be required to pay me for my time and for my work. The difference is, we dont work for nexon, we are consumers not employees.Since theres no law that regulates gameplay ( and there will never be such laws) there goes that comparison. when we agree to the ToS, we agree to comply. How are you trying to compare wages and in game play? I would really like to hear your reasoning behind choosing this comparison. After all this game belongs to Nexon, they decide the changes. Even our accounts belong to them.
You need to take a step back, deep breath and think things through, because youre getting way too personal with me. We dont know eachother, and lets keep it that way, we dont have to throw out random accusations as to our characters. Im not insulting your character, dont try to drag me through the mud. and this isnt trying to play the victim, this is saying be careful.
I am an on and off player, and this account is probably one of the older ones around (since before the release of even pirates, I believe.) To be honest, the main issue the entire time was... well, time. The difference between a dedicated player and a casual player is wildly skewed. Drop rate isn't even the start of the differences between dedicated and not; potentials, mesos, star forced equipment, especially tyrants in GMS. A casual player will stuggle to get a high star tyrant equipment piece, a dedicated player can get a cape up to 10 or even 12 stars within a few days, should they spend enough time meso farming.
I like the idea of shutting down the requirement for needing drop rate, but how it's being implemented really won't work. The end result is every item becoming more expensive, and illegitimate ways becoming more common because of the difficulty spike this will provide. Nodestones and Arcane River Droplet Stones are already hard enough to find, and a minor boost to nodestone drop rate isn't going to be enough since the sheer number of them that you need is far beyond an extra one or two an hour. Not to mention droplet stones are being left untouched; in the current game it's said to take an hour per droplet stone to find. That's with the current drop gear. Casual players are completely barred off from even finding one droplet stone, and dedicated players are going to struggle to find more after this change, due to the fact that you need not a few droplet stones, but 240, just for the weapon alone. You need 160 for any piece of equipment, and just the weapon plus one piece of equipment, at the current rate with drop gear, is 400 non stop hours; which is far more time than many are willing to put in, even some dedicated players will get turned away by such low rates.
I'm saddened to see that drop rates will not improve at massive scales, allowing dedicated players to finish things quickly when it comes to nodes and arcane river droplet stones, while casual players will at least be able to see what a droplet stone looks like in their inventory because they aren't a once in a lifetime drop.
All of this is only concerning level 200+ characters as well. Players of lower levels are also being affected, and unlike nodestones which get a minor boost, they won't receive any benefits either.
I'm not against dedicated players getting drop rate equipment, in fact I'd like to say that they should be rewarded for doing so, but the simpler solution would be to boost the drop rates of items so that casual players have a shot at farming instead of knocking down those who put in the time. Many people simply don't have the time for farming all the nodestones, arcane symbols, and droplet stones that end game requires, not to mention anything lower than that also gets pushed down. I just want to see a time where even a casual player can see the end of the game instead of artificially raising the difficulty by means of drop rate. Having incredibly low drop rates will not make players want to farm them, it would push them to leave, since the odds are not even in their favor to find the item they're looking for.
Two instances of Begging the question, interspliced with poisoning the well. Your claim that that players need to learn to adapt. This is the beginning of your first begging the question/circular logic. You then link it with your second Begging the Question fallacy, stating that the reasons for making the changes are clear and fair. Your follow up is poisoning the well against anyone trying to defend that the changes or not clear and fair as paradoxical and illogical in nature. This posions the well for anyone trying to take this stance. You follow up with the end of the second Begged Question; that they are being fair across the board without giving any shred of evidence to prove your point on why they are being fair. You claim they are, you provide no evidence for it. The onus is on you to prove a claim you assert. The rest of your paragraph is a jab at the community base stating that they will always be unhappy. This can be considered as you further poisoning the well as you portray people disagreeing with nexon as unhappy contradictions.
Even if I gave you a charitable interpretation, this falls as you being very cold and condescending towards anyone else. You then end your post with the follow up to the first Begged Question which finishes your circular logic that players need to learn to adapt change. A claim you made first which you provided no evidence for, then concluded that it must be true.
You are making assumptions on the behalf of Nexon without providing evidence for these assumptions but using them as true statements. At best this can be taken as faith in a company to know what it’s doing, that’s the charitable interpretation. The other way this can be looked at that this is another begged question/circular logic. You claim that nexon isn’t to blame because they have plans ahead of time. You follow this up with that this a statement is true by repeating yourself, that they had plans in future times. You have not proven anywhere that this is the case, but you covered your base by inserting the word probably, because you can then fall back in that you didn’t claim they did with absolute certainty, but your first part of the circular logic states that there did plan for it. You are using an assertion that this is all planned without any evidence to dismiss another player’s claim.
You claim this without any evidence from Nexons side. As people have rightfully pointed out there are many items that give a massive boost to player with them as to those without them. And the only way to get them is through NX. Frenzy totem, while it is tradable, is only available through NX purchases. Somewhere in obtaining said item involves NX that beginner player would not be able to get without income or their parents debit/credit cards. You’re making assertions on Nexon’s behalf and claiming them as true. To further discuss this I would need how you define FAIR, EVERYONE, because the definitions you are using must be different that the ones most people use. WHALES as you stated other players called them, are part of everyone. So any direct nerf only applicable to a portion of a player base by definition is not fair to EVERYONE.
You can make a claim it makes it fairer in righting past wrongs by letting the system get this far wrong. If you follow this logic in that it is fairer to the other players, then by definition a specific portion of the players receiving a nerf while others receiving next to no change as stated by many people in the thread If kms data is to be believed is punishment. Punishment is defined as: the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense or as the penalty inflicted. So call it aptly for what it is. It is punishment to the players who have too much drop rate, so they want to reduce the effectiveness as an attempt to appeal to the beginner player that Nexon needs to keep their games thriving. While not making changes to other aspects of the game that rely just as heavily on NX to excel well at. This is hypocritical at worst, and if given a charitable interpretation misguided and coincidently oddly in their favor by not hurting their bottom dollar in other NX purchases.I will point you to a video by extra credit titled Free to play is currently broken. I simply insert this reference because it would make this post too long to get into why specifically Nexon needs new players to keep a game afloat. The video makes quick precise points as to why, and I’m using them as part of my evidence.
You’re using the irrelevant conclusion fallacy to state that his conclusion makes no sense, or that his points do not apply to his conclusion as a way to dismiss him. A charitable interpretation is that you genuinely did not understand his use of analogy, so I will break it down for you. The person is most likely referencing Nexon’s goal of “fairly” balancing the game in favor of the lower level players, and is applying the type of logic of dragging everyone else down to bring the others “up” as a crude method to point out that nexons way of attempting things make no sense.
You’re stating that you have no horse in this race. That since you are not affected by the changes they are fine from a perspective from a person who is not funded. You dismiss others arguments from the perspective that since its okay for me, then its okay for everyone else. You can only speak for yourself. Do not make assertion for others. You do not speak for myself who has less drop rate than yourself. These changes are a big deal for me and others if we follow similar path to kms. You follow with an assertion that it makes things more challenging without providing evidence as to why it makes the game more challenging. Either define the term your using, or don’t claim it as fact when people call you out on it. As PirateIzzy rightfully stated, making something more time consuming does not in itself make a task harder; while adding time to tasks CAN make something harder when suitable conditions are met it can also easily make a task easier. A task that requires intense focus for 5 minutes, as compared to making it more spread out so that you can do it over the duration of 10 minutes lessens the mental fatigue on the person, making the task overall easier. Here’s an example proving the exact opposite that more time consuming = harder. If you make assertions back them up.
You start this with claiming that the person is incapable of understanding nexons reasoning because of who they are, rather than what they are arguing. This is a form of Genetic Fallacy in the form of which you claim that the SOURCE is the problem, so they are wrong regardless of what they actually say. Text book definition right here Genetic Fallacy: is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on someone's or something's history, origin, or source rather than its current meaning or context.
Your second statement is an assumption on your part that you have provided for no evidence. Charitable interpretation is that you recognize that they are patterns and they tend to repeat, while having faith in the company. Another possible interpretation is that you are using an appeal to ignorance in the form of, just because a counter balance isn’t out yet, doesn’t mean it won’t be in the future. While you may very well be correct that in a future patch they might put a counter balance for this change, that does not affect the current players in the here and now. So they can rightfully state that at the current moment, with this patch coming it would hurt more players when no known reprieval is in sight.
The fact he insulted you as you claimed does not hinder nor help his argument. It is an insult and not an ad homenim. It’s an insult to point that your behavior has been vehemently in support of Nexon regardless of what the change entails.
You are being very uncharitable to PirateIzzy’s first paragraph. He starts with his conclusion, then states the reasoning behind it. (A) If the Nodestone drop rate buff wasn't significant enough for KMS players (who have tested this) then(B) it affects unfunded players even more due to botters being unaffected by it, who will then take advantage of the inflated prices of Nodestones. Which he follows that (C) the nerf to drop rate also affects the following items: Arcane Symbols, Arcane River Droplets (especially in Reboot), and cubes from bosses. These items are important in helping unfunded players get better gear, but their drop rate will not be enhanced currently. Maybe they will in the future, but at the moment this current change hurts more players than it helps because players will have less of what they require to improve their abilities. All of this is under the assumption that we will get similar changes that KMS received. If A> B, C, A ; Prove B true. While his C claim that they are other items that get affected by this change that hurt unfunded players as well isn’t necessary to prove his argument, it does help overall make the Argument sound. If A is true (that KMS player testing the nodestone drop rate buff is true) then his conclusion that B( this effects unfunded players more) is valid because it follows Modus Ponens. If A then B, A is true, then B is true. Objectively speaking IF KMS player data is correct, then unfunded players will have a harder time. This is based on pure logic. While you may claim that the statements are false, that will not affect the VALIDITY of his LOGIC. You can argue that his argument is not SOUND, but currently the nature of whether we will have similar results to KMS can only be seen once they are here. So we will have to hold out, but if are changes are similar then his argument is both valid and sound.
Claiming that he is using feelings instead of logic is not charitable at all when their clearly is valid logic in his posts as I demonstrated. You are also using “its already broken, so no point in fixing it” as a point to dismiss that Nexons changes can have far reaching effects in the economy. You are sidestepping his conclusion that the changes hurt unfunded players more, by stating that’s its an Irrelevant Conclusion. You are dismissing his point without providing evidence as to why we should just ignore the economy. You make the claim, now back it up, the onus is on you, not him.
You are then following up with a not a true scottsman fallacy. Define your terms, what is a HARDCORE MAPLER. Why would a hardcore mapler agree with these changes. You make the claims, now provide the evidence. The onus is not on the party who is receiving the claim.
You then proceed to strawman his entire argument into one of him and others recognizing they wasted their money and THAT is why they are outraged. You misrepresent, boil down his argument into a single sentence that is easily knocked down. Text book definition of strawman: the mistake of attributing to your opponents a ridiculous position they do not hold and that is easily knock down. This is done by Exaggerating, oversimplifying, or distorting the other person’s view, you set up an easy target. This absurd position is then refuted by showing how ludicrous it is.
Lack of an incentive != you have no motive to do so. You very well can have a motive to defend Nexon’s decisions that involves Nexon giving you nothing. Bringing this up does not counter the fact you have been overwhelmingly on Nexons side without providing evidence as to why these changes are good and that players should not be upset.
I’ve gone through your posts until right now and pointed your fallacies. Stating that in the future there will be something to make up for these deficiencies MAYBE, does not provide evidence as to why we CURRENTLY should support these changes. We are talking about the present. You dismiss his possible future long terms of maple in favor of yours without any evidence, while chalking down his evidence or straight up misrepresenting it at some points. That is very uncharitable at best, and sophistry at worst.