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GMS-Raising Star Cap, Rebirth Flames & Neb Revamp?
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I've already tried Reddit, but I got some negative responses due to nagging and the timing being not right (V wasn't in effect yet when I started on Reddit.) Making another post on Reddit would certainly be suicidal. I don't think this thread will be any more visible outside the forums unless people started spreading this topic around to friends and other social platforms. I was seeing sparks of this conversation starting in the official Discord channel, but we still need more supporters such as players ranging from the casual to the extremely dedicated ones.
We can only hope for other Mapler's support on this matter and if Nexon will even acknowledge this request.
https://clips.twitch.tv/OilyPluckySmoothieDancingBanana
This dude's items are older than the Unlimited update. Maybe that is why he could spam boss flames. There is also the Silent Crusade Belt that he has in his inventory.
If you want to protest for anything, protest for more ways to earn cubes.
if anything the nebulites are what makes the power players stronger and the weaker players weaker, we need flames so that the weaker players could become stronger without relying on the stronger playres selling or approving of that.
other versions of maple story have flames and they seem fine. (even ems had flames before they merged with us) and all of the content is a copy paste from kms.
if you like it or not we need more power, because nexon korea won't change the bosses just for gms, so just deal with it. it's KMS>All other versions.
we were supposed to get flames instead of nebulites but some players cried because of the 10 psok restriction, so we got nebs i hope those players are at least happy.
we need flames so that F2P players will have a much greater chance at trying out end game content without relying on stronger players as much.
Nebulites = P2W,not optainable from any events, or rewards. and if you want to remove a neb from an item you have to pay real money, and pay real money for a chance to tier up a rank, as well as a tier down in rank.
Flames of rebirth = F2P, You can craft flames, and they even come from the event shops. can use unlimited nuber of flames per item without having to spend real money.
now flames aren't the best of the best, yes they are rng , you can use 1 and get the best stats or 100 and get trash, but at least you can reuse one without having to buy an item from the cash shop
So tell me what's better?
A. P2W Nebulites
B. F2P Flames that you craft, get from events.
pretty much all of the chaos scroll of goodness rewards from gms, are a replace for not having flames, kms/other versions get's flames, yea the best ones ( etrenal ) as well as the second best ones powerfull, from monster collction and events.
tell some other ways to get [A] Nebulites besides spending real money, or buying from someone?
(i know gms had the Maplehood watch event but that's not a replace to not having nebulites from monster collection/other events/rewards)
Pretty much it's KMS translated to english, and we need to adapt to that, because they won't go out of there way and decrease the bosses hp and overall power creep.
that's why we need more power becuase if not then we can't do end game content, and f2p player are getting hurt even more.
The end game bosses are balanced around end game equipment. Adding new power up systems as alternates to existing ones only shifts the end game further away. Short term gain until the next even stronger boss comes out that you'll need AO and nebs to beat.
How much further does the bar have to rise before Horntail goes the way of Zakum? They just finished Papulatus, maybe it's already being worked on. If you want to close the gap then look to existing systems. More cubes, fix nebulites, open bpot to f2p.
We will never have a boss that you need nebs and AO to beat. We are the only server with this kind of nebulite system. It was short sighted to add them in the first place, and it quickly degraded from this neat idea where you could find and use specific nebulites on your equips when it was announced to another paywalled upgrading system. Hell, our hopes were dashed before it even launched, when extractions revealed the existence of the nebulite box and alien cubes, and after the patch, we quickly found out that you could only get one B rank nebulite from boxes per day, and then they hugely decreased the drop rate of nebulite boxes. The only other server with nebulites is CMS, and you can only put them in the alien themed equips or one anniversary face accessory. There is almost no chance they will ever do anything about nebulites, they haven't so far and no other servers have this problem, and hence, wouldn't do anything to solve it, so what's the point of supporting this stagnant system? Why not just get rid of them and replace them with additional options?
Additional options provide variety in equipment. For newer and weaker players, this means you can pick up equips that will be useful, you don't just have to basically use the same equips until you get a CRA set. This mean there's some point in getting new equips, every CRA hat won't be the same as every other CRA hat and there'd be a difference in market value. Accessory Crafting would receive the ability to craft flames, giving players the ability to change their options, and hopefully, but not likely, make some money by selling flames (most likely via service, I suppose, if they make them like our crafted cubes).
Additional Options are freely available to everyone, unlike nebulites, where the only options are to gamble or dish out billions of mesos. Flames are not the only way to change them. You can hunt for new equips, you can fuse equips with alchemy to get a new equip with different additional options. Given that weaker players probably have equips that they could more easily replace, like with epic potentials, which, with transfer hammer and occult cubes, makes it easier than ever to replace, it's much more viable for them to hunt for new equips or fuse for them, while stronger players would probably just want to flame their already created equips.
We don't need more power. The hardest boss in the game can be defeated without flames so there's no need for them. GMS players are only marginally weaker than KMS players, if at all. Kannas make mages do big numbers. What we do need is for it to be easier (or possible at all) to get that last 20% gearing. Hell making it easier to get to 40% gearing would be a positive change. Once you get 6% stat on all your stuff your progression takes a nose dive. We need more cubes and access to nebs and bpot, not AO.
Explain to me how nebulites are better than additional options, explain to me how it's great to have completely average equips, explain to me what point there is to buy or sell new equips if everyone already has the best base equip they could possibly be. Explain to me how nebulites could even come close to creating the market that additional options can.
We don't need nebs if they're not going to put the effort into creating a good nebulite system. Get rid of them and bring over additional options. That's the best possible nebulite revamp. We lose this RNG paywall system and get a completely free system supported by KMS. You want a good way to progress after 6% stat? Additional options are it.
The fact that some of us can do things with the cobbled together mess of systems we have doesn't mean it's fine the way it is.
Almost every suggestion that improves F2P damage will also benefit whales as well. It is absolutely absurd to think that we don't deserve additional options just because there are 20 Lucid soloists in the game. They got there mainly from scrolling and cubing perfection. I don't want to hear more about GMS being more than capable of doing endgame bosses just because a few Youtubers showed off their damage or someone did some calculations assuming someone splurged for 40% stat per equip. I don't think players would splurge just to kill Hard Lucid or other bosses.
Damage gain is not the important note on the system. I don't really care about damage gains, at least for my main, but I am more interested in Accessory Crafting and the popularity of other content. Flames came with new content as well as some overhauled content. These included, but not limited to Dojo, Ursu, Kritias, and Legion Shops. Legion is already being used and players are competing in Dojo for gloves, honor and star dummies and there are teams going to kill Ursu. Players already taking advantage of these opportunities will feel their effects immediately if flames do come to GMS. The more unused content so far include Kritias and Accessory Crafting.
Crafting flames was suppose to a specialty of Accessory Crafters during the RED Update. Without Flame Crafting, mediocre Meister Accessories are the only impressive thing they could make (their accessories are being beaten my Gollux and Absolab Accessories.) A lot of crafting materials in the second image are unused. Mana crystals and spell essence were suppose to be an ingredient in making flames, but without the system in place, there is almost no use or market for them. Scroll Extractors from Alchemists are also a tool needed to extract flames, scrolls and recipes for materials. Two professions would benefit from having flames implemented to the system.
Kritias Shop as of now is only good for gloves and resets unless you are stupid like me back a few months ago when I bought the Kritias set items. Kritias would become more active if flames were introduced because the shop contains the most important part of the flame (the unrelenting and forever unrelenting flames.) These materials are similar to how Master Cubes and Meister Cubes are different because they use different cubing blades, but with similar ingredients.
I know you want to focus on other ways on improving damage such as cube and bonus potential availability for free to plays and I totally agree with that, but I am against your idea of thinking we don't need a new way of improving range because a few whales made the impossible possible.
This topic won't go away, beacuse nexon thinks they can milk us from our money.
did you know that in kms they can actually buy cubes and bonus cubes,and pets with reward points from the cash shop, not some special reward points shop. and they can buy it as manny times as they want the only restriction is how much reward points they can get.
we don't even have bonus potential cubes in the reward shops, we don't have pets in the reward shops etc.....
we are sick of P2W content, i mean why nebulites aren't in event shops/craftable/monster collection.
flames are free from: event shops,monster collection, each and every event in kms gives out flames.
the only way to get nebulites without spening real life money, is to buy from someone on the free market or auction house.
The only P2W aspect that really really makes me angry is this one -> not a single way to obtain bonus potential cubes without a bunch of NX. (Buying it with MaplePoints from the MesoMarket is a joke).
The others you are talking about i can handle. I always though about reward points should be use in the regular shop, didn't know that KMS has it, funny thing.
The big difference is that their economy is much better, it's not overrun with mesos, so it's much more viable to use Meso Market to get Maple Points or even buy cubes directly from the FM or Auction House, given that they have full trading of cash items.
In your "explain to me" section you have brought up a topic that is too large for a single post. A level playing field for gear. I urge you to look at games like guild wars and Warframe, where gear upgrading is limited and the main focus is on your build instead. Guild wars especially has a much stronger economy because it's easy to put a value on things when everything is roughly the same. Maple has tried to do that by showing how much an item will increase your range, but players still have to weigh how expensive it will be to upgrade the item. Also as I recall AO doesn't have a market because nothing is tradable.
@Dax I commend you for trying to fix the crafting system, but riddle me this: What if crafters made nebs instead? You have absolutely the wrong view about gear balance. It's easy to get swept up in the power creep but if other players can reach certain heights then so can you. The question is whether you have to pay for it or not. Adding a new system only raises the bar, free players will still be behind.
@Phantom I'm very well aware of Nexon NA's greed. As long as people keep paying thousands every month they won't change a thing. Believe me I've been lobbying for them to fix nebs for years.
It's not impossible to remove systems and compensate players, and it's not without precedent. Just look at the changes they had to make for the EMS merge. My gear is almost fully nebbed with 3% and 4% STR and all stats nebs, and I wouldn't mind for a second if they disappeared and we got additional options, even without compensation.
It's not more that much more difficult to put value on things which vary from the norm, for years that was the law in the land in Maple. There was no question on the value of 2atk vs 3atk vs 4atk PACs for example. Because of this, weaker players could afford a 2atk PAC, while stronger players could go for the 4atk. As you upgrade, you had a market to sell your old items to, when all items are the same, after making marginal upgrades, all you can really do is sell to someone who's only slightly worse than you. This creates a huge gap where good items have little chance of moving from the strongest players to the weakest players. Likewise, the equips weaker players have are basically worthless, so they don't stand a chance of selling them to make money for better items. There's a distinct a lack of gradual progression, just clusters of weak and strong. Sure it might work in other games, but with the upgrade systems in place in Maple, it is not a good system to have.
And you recall wrong. Additional options are just an extension of the previous stat variance system. All items which are 130 and lower are fully tradeable and naturally have additional stats. Using flames on them will cause them to become untradeable, however that is not necessary, hunt for new items, fuse old items, you get your new additional options and your gear stays tradeable. All items which are 140 and over have 10 scissor counts applied and are tradeable until equipped. For items which became untradeable, but don't require normal scissors of karma or platinum, you can buy silver scissors for 20m in NPC shops to trade once they've become untradeable. This doesn't seem to have been a problem in KMS so far, but other servers have adapted a system with slightly weaker stats, but no new restrictions on tradeability, no reason we couldn't as well.
I wouldn't mind the slightly nerfed version of flames if GMS has a problem with scissor count.
@Zephyrus, Why sure? If we could craft Nebulites, our Setup Inventory would look like this:
I am not a fan of having my Setup inventory being overtaken by rocks that don't stack because they are not similar. It clashes with my chair collection and getting a B means you are stuck until you have a ticket.
What if we have fusion tickets added?
Nexon would give us a monthly limit of 5 or 2 and we would use them up quickly and we won't be able to fuse for the rest of the month.
What if we didn't have monthly limit on RP shop items?
We would still be stuck fusing Nebulites and getting $%^ed results when we could be using our RP on other things.
Meister Cubes and Master Cubes aren't tradable either, but the cube fragments and cubic blades are as well as item crystals. Players would sell Unrelenting Flames, rebirth fragments and FINALLY spell essence.
The 2atk PACs were cheaper because they got unlucky with their scrolling. They never had any hope of getting any stronger. You sold it down to the next schmuck and bought a better one. But of course back then the difference between the items wasn't a big deal. You could still defeat end game bosses with the 2atk PAC. The disparity you're describing already happens in our economy. Buyers know that upgrading a potential means gambling away whatever stats it had initially, but sellers still want you to pay for the 9% stat they rolled. Weak players already have no chance of selling anything they have, because the only things they have can be obtained from events for little to no effort. Progressing beyond that is where the money is, but it's extremely slow as a F2P. The best way to make money as a weak player is, like Dax said, to sell crafting materials. Every new upgrade system compounds on the last. You can put in the effort to get yourself a clean set of fafnir, but it'll only give you about 50k range. 3% stat from a potential is nice, but combining it with the 50 raw stat you get from starring each equip makes it's a lot more valuable. That will only compound again with AO. The weak players fall behind while the strong get stronger, further reducing the value of weak gear.
You're forgetting where flames come from. How strong does a party of 6 need to be to defeat empress? What about normal magnus? These are the only ways to get level 140 flames for pensalir gear. Otherwise you have to buy them from other players, and if weak players had the money to do that they wouldn't be weak players. Players will still have to gear up using the current systems like potential and arcane force in order to be strong enough to kill the bosses that drop the flames they need. And tough luck for the people who spent the effort to get SW/absolab/arcane gear huh? They'll all be at the mercy of the accessory crafters. As it stands the AO system is heavily skewed in favour of the already strong players. It's just another line of potential really.
How can you guys be so optimistic that Nexon will implement the perfect version of AO but so pessimistic about every alternative action? You can't have it both ways.
And the disparity I'm describing exists in our economy today because I'm am describing exactly our economy today, but I'm posing additional options as a way to lessen the gap. There's no way a person who suddenly becomes able to do CRA would have any advantage to selling a piece of CRA gear over the people who have been doing it forever and ever unless there was some variance in the equipment people are selling. Additional options give people a better chance to make some money. It's not a complete solution, however, because the reason KMS can have such a nice gradual gradation between equips of different stats is also because overall, their meso is stronger than ours. It's much more viable for a KMS player to win it big in the game of clean equips because the cost gap between the low end and wide end is much smaller. But getting into reducing botting and add huge, viable meso sinks is just another bucket of worms entirely.
Flames are not the only way to way to change additional options. You can fuse items and you can hunt for new ones, both of which are much more viable for weaker players than people who have almost completed gears. Fusing Pensalirs for additional options, or any equipment set, really, and transfer hammering up some epic potentials, even epic bonus potentials from low level equips, also from fusing, is a viable upgrading path in KMS, while I certainly can't say the same for us. Do you think it's more likely for a poor player to be at the mercy of accessory crafters when they can still fuse new gear, or the people with primed CRA equips that would be a pain to rescroll, where flames are the only path for them?
You know what flames from bosses are good for? Disassembling for crafting materials. You can't flame items that came into existence after additional options became a thing, and even though we never got additional options at the time, the restriction came into effect when Unleashed hit. You can see what items you can flame vs what you can't via the semi-transparent flame icon (can flame) or white dot (can't flame) present on the equip's picture on its tooltip. Most of our gear can only be flamed via the crafted flames, which of course, come from accessory crafting, or, you know, the tons of event shops, attendance events, or just various giveaways they have for them in KMS (another key difference between additional options and nebulites). Flames are not as rare as you seem to think they are, nor are they completely out of the reach of the hands of poor players, again, as you seem to think they are.
I can be optimistic about flames because it comes from KMS and they've supported the system for the last 5 years, while nebulites have sucked for the last 6 years, there is a very clear distinction between the level of support Nexon has for each system. The one big change to nebulites is having tradeable fusion tickets added to gachapon, which, fat chance having weaker players afford that, especially when nebulites are the last thing they should be thinking about. History has proven one choice is clearly better than the other. The fact is, whatever differs from KMS, no matter how much we may like it, will end up neglected and unchanged. It's seems especially certain for things only we have, not present in other servers, for example, our version of nebulites. Then there are the things which eventually become what KMS has, like the boss HP changes which one of the producers at the time, Girasol, swore we wouldn't get, but we did, without additional options to give us a boost for handling it, or our custom Luminous, Angelic Buster, and Kaiser. For game systems, sticking to things KMS does is best.
Likewise, how can you be so adamantly against the system when you've demonstrated such a lack of understanding of it. It's like you said before, "Save me the spiel about AO I've heard it a thousand times", a lot of your arguments have been against some version of additional options that you've built up in your head as how they will be, despite the drastic difference between how they've actually been in the versions which do have them, which I too have heard a thousand times. I'll admit that I don't know how they would implement additional options, but I'm confident it'll be between the two implementations they've already done so far, but you should also admit that you too don't know the effects additional options would have, nor how they would be implemented. Why assume the worst case about the widening gap when there are already cases of additional options in action where you can see what the effects were?
Oh, there also exists the possibility of "the darkest timeline", additional options plus the cash based Black Flames, which are NX flames that let you choose between before and after flames. They're fairly cheap, so either we go with them, or you know, it wouldn't be the first time players use the power of outrage to deny a cash based advantage into the game (though, this would be outside of Reboot, for the first time)
Zephryus's lack of knowledge for where flames come from humors me. In a nutshell, the boss flames are similar are similar to how potential scrolls give an item that has no potential a hidden potential, except the flame has to equal or higher than item you want to flame. Pretty much all equipment dropped from bosses will drop pre-flamed, but fixed and whether it is a good or useless is up to RNG. The Powerful and Eternal flames are for re-rolling those pre-flamed items that are suppose to be otherwise "fixed" for or flaming things beyond LVL 150. Being strong doesn't have a significant advantage for obtaining flames except being ahead by a few Rebirth Fragements (which is the flame version of cube fragments dropped from bosses) since boss flames are useless on flamed equipment.
Being at the mercy of Accessory Crafters? Accessory Crafters will finally get the respect that were suppose to get during the RED Update and Alchemists will have another way of supporting the community. To break down the boss flames, an Alchemist must have a Scroll Extractor available to break the boss flames into rebirth fragments and the scrolls and recipes into mana crystals and spell essence.
Correct. Crafting is the way to go :P. Crafting doesn't even require a weapon! It is so simple to do but I don't see that many funded taking advantage of plants and rocks in Ardentmill or fields. It is easy to make money off of players who grind or AFK and hope someone supplies them for Junipers or Black Crystals. It is slow, but is effective. With more people crafting in Alchemy (scroll extractor) and Accessory Crafting (the actual one making flames) high end crystals and oils must be supplied constantly to maintain their crafting ranks as well the materials for the flames themselves. Profits earned can be used for purchasing better equips or equipment enhancing.
This kind of "if KMS does it, it must be good" mindset is just blatantly wrong and illustrates a complete lack of critical thinking. KMS devs have pushed out many bad updates on their players, and pretty much told them to suck it up or quit. These and other updates we have that KMS isn't getting include:
-Nerf to the drop rate system; despite protests on both Insoya and Reddit when it was proposed here, it was pushed through from KMS
-Boss reward reorganization; despite protests on both Insoya when it was proposed, it was pushed through (and will be here shortly)
-Gollux items are far better accessories than anything KMS equivalent
-SW and transpose system is a great system that KMS will never implement
-Vastly decreased tier-up rates for both regular potential and bonus potential cubes in KMS compared to here
-Lack of 2x exp/drop events because KMS believes their players are fine with grinding more
-Similarly, lack of DMT events because KMS believes their players are fine with their terrible tier-up rates
-Increased amounts of monsters killed for attendance (we have 300 usually; they have 3000)
-Preservation of LHC party EXP for quite a bit back when we were worried those nerfs would come over directly
-Nerfing of SDH and pretty much all sources of party EXP that got ported over as is because a vocal minority of KMS players dislike any advantage given to partying
-Lack of Kishin; JMS nerfed Kishin to the ground whereas we were fortunate enough to get the improved version that is on par with old Frenzy Totem
-Preservation of meso farming maps via non-KMS regions such as Ghost Ship, allowing for 5-6x faster progression in GMS Reboot compared to KMS with Kanna.
With the drop rate nerf there's pretty much no real way to farm meso in KMS Reboot, which contributes to its heavy unpopularity there.
-BT, Kanna, and Hayato link skills are all good link and Legion effects that KMS does not and will never have
-Increase in the duration of many "intro to new [game system]" events such as Legion intro event there being 2 weeks while 4 weeks here
-Tot's was a very beneficial albeit buggy GMS exclusive and because of rampant KMS copy pasting (that you so desire) was neutered so that it would work
-Totems and the Afterland questline (among many others) are GMS exclusive and are something that is beneficial to players here
-Attack Speed cap being 0 here instead of 2 is also GMS/MSEA exclusive and is beneficial to players here
-Beauty Salon system here is far superior to the Mannequin system they have over at KMS that is extraordinarily expensive and recent, limited to CS events, and is limited in the amount of slots they gave you to keep cosmetic options
-Damage Skin storage system here always had more slots than the KMS version (they have 10 now; when we imported that UI we didn't copy paste because we have 30? slots now when we had like 25? before). This is a perfect example of adapting an inferior KMS system and making it objectively better.
-Arguable, but the Surprise Style box system here is much more preferred to the Masterpiece system where you get an item from a set of 2-3 different prize pools and have to use more NX to hopefully combine them into the style you want that is in the pool with the lowest probability
-Related to the above, but Cash Shop items there have time-limited stats before you can use CS items to "renew" them, which is ridiculous imo
I could keep going all day, honestly. You might think some of these are small things, but many players love and use the GMS exclusive systems we have. Especially players that are extremely into cosmetics and (hint, hint) contribute heavily to the bottom-line of this branch of MapleStory.
Have you thought that many of the actual KMS advantages that we don't have are intentionally not given to GMS because of the many benefits we have from not blindly following KMS? And that many of the revenue-hurting advantages that we didn't import are not here because the lack of them offsets the cost of all of these QoL changes that generally reduce revenue obtained from players?
Furthermore, have you even asked EMS players what their opinion of flames and 20 stars was? They got the nerfed version of flames that is most likely to come over here, and from what I've heard them say - their opinions on flames have been mixed, to say the least.