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GMS-Raising Star Cap, Rebirth Flames & Neb Revamp?

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  • OccireOccire
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    edited October 2017
    How does the fact that the ones who design most bosses, and the endgame bosses exclusively, are Nexon Korea, and they design them for KMS standards, fit into your critical thinking? They have never redesigned bosses for GMS, so I think it's a stretch to think they'll ever do it in the future, so I don't think it's very wise when people deny additional options along this line of thinking.

    Some changes have to be made even if they're unpopular. Like it or not, drop rate potentials were actually pretty overpowered, considering that they're legendary only and gave a huge advantage to people with them. I'm not angry they got nerfed, I'm still using mine, it's still a whole lot better than without them. The new boss drop system is just bad, enough said.

    When I say we should follow KMS, I mean mostly in terms of gearing. I'm not against all GMS exclusive things or anything.

    - Gollux is definitely better, and is probably the only thing on this list that really affects gearing, I guess sweetwater as well. It's also pretty fair for weaker players, you can get half the items from the best set just by farming for coins.
    - Sweetwater, I can take it or leave it, it's good for players who can't do tougher bosses, transposition is generally a good system, but again, stagnant, never used anywhere else, though it'd be neat to.
    - 2x events are much rarer than before, and certainly not as common as for us, but they're still pretty frequent.
    - Perhaps one of the contributing factors towards the lower rank up rates and lack of double miracle times is more the fact that cubes are more accessible with full cash trading, tradeable crafted cubes, more player spending, and a better economy that can support the viability of these.
    We have the same amount of monsters killed for attendance events, the only ones where you have to kill thousands of monsters are the special ones, we actually got one of those like five months ago, they have much better rewards than usual. It's the exception, not the rule.
    - LHC was incredibly toxic, and honestly, the nerf should've happened much sooner. By the end, there were more people soloing with mules than actual parties, it always pains me to see when people talk about this as an example of the kind of party play we should have more of.
    - I think they've adequately solved the lack of training areas by now.
    - Kishin is great. There's not that much more to say. It's heavily advantageous to training
    - Reboot was already not as popular. It wasn't as necessary in KMS because they already had systems that made normal servers much less pay to win than GMS is, or well, an economy that made things like meso market and purchasing cubes with mesos viable. Meso farming also wasn't very popular in KMS, compared to farming things like pieces of time in ToT. The meta was very different than what we have in GMS and I also believe they never should have left non-KMS maps unadjusted. Frankly, it seems like something they overlooked, and then left in too long that they felt like they couldn't change it, especially since they released Reboot right before a vacation.
    - BT, Kanna, and Hayato are great (Jett's legion effect is also very good, the same as Hayato, Shade, and such), but again, also examples of things that end up neglected for the most part because they do not exist in KMS.
    - I don't know many of these quests other than Legion one which had their durations increased. KMS also had a second run of the Legion one which we haven't gotten.
    - Tot's is okay. Getting a free pet is definitely nice, I'm not sure how copying and pasting from KMS has neutered this.
    - Totems don't give nearly enough stats that they couldn't be replaced by just some good additional options on normal equips, plus it would take far less effort (and in some cases, money) to obtain.
    - Attack speed 0 is great, ultimately, due to how delay rounding works, is an increase of 15% damage at max, which could possibly be made up for elsewhere. Also somewhat unfair towards classes with fixed speed attacks, like hurricane and other keydowns.
    - Beauty salon is something I've often praised Nexon for, actually probably the only thing I feel is completely better than the corresponding KMS system.
    - The only advantage our damage skin storage had over KMS is the number of slots. The ability to store the default damage skin, plus the more compact representation is a huge advantage over our old system. It started with 10 slots, max, it's since been increased, I think it's at least 25 max now. Having to buy slots from event shops is a huge strike against it. I was glad we got both the better UI and the increased slots without having to farm increases.
    - Definitely arguable. Style coupons are only 2.2k compared to style boxes being 3.4k. The masterpiece system is somewhat beyond style coupons, I wouldn't consider them an analogue to our style boxes (that would be the style coupons). Masterpiece is more like how we have the stamp system, I suppose.

    I understand there are a ton of reasons why we shouldn't get somethings, but as far as additional options (and again, ditching nebulites for them), they have a purpose outside of just increasing damage. It'd create a better path for upgrades for lower funded players, from directly upgrading their equips to the ability to make some money off well-statted equips to the crafting materials for flames. I've played GMS, I've played KMS, and I, of course, know people who play either. I have my own opinions of additional options vs nebulites, and even 20-25 stars (my thoughts on this, in particular, good meso sink, great way to make it necessary to buy more equips).

    If we had an upgrade system that didn't benefit so much from spending real money, like additional options, or good meso sinks, like higher star force counts, that promote a better economy, players wouldn't be as turned off to Maple, its reputation could improve, and they could increase their player base. I think that's pretty important to establish a good consumer base, but capitalizing on whales and a high turnover of one-time spender seems to be working okay too.
  • PhantomMasterThiefPhantomMasterThief
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    edited October 2017

    This topic won't go away, beacuse nexon thinks they can milk us from our money.

    did you know that in kms they can actually buy cubes and bonus cubes,and pets with reward points from the cash shop, not some special reward points shop. and they can buy it as manny times as they want the only restriction is how much reward points they can get.

    we don't even have bonus potential cubes in the reward shops, we don't have pets in the reward shops etc.....

    we are sick of P2W content, i mean why nebulites aren't in event shops/craftable/monster collection.

    flames are free from: event shops,monster collection, each and every event in kms gives out flames.

    the only way to get nebulites without spening real life money, is to buy from someone on the free market or auction house.


    The only P2W aspect that really really makes me angry is this one -> not a single way to obtain bonus potential cubes without a bunch of NX. (Buying it with MaplePoints from the MesoMarket is a joke).
    The others you are talking about i can handle. I always though about reward points should be use in the regular shop, didn't know that KMS has it, funny thing.

    they can buy some things ,not all of the things from the cash shop with reward points:cubes,pets and even nx clothes are applicable to that.

    they can buy a lot more things from the cash shop then gms's reward points shop, not all of the things from the cash shop are purchasable with reward points though.
    Occire wrote: »
    I'm no stranger to spending NX on nebulites either and I can understand the anger of losing items you work hard on, hell, I got tired of the constant upgrades that Maple has pushed in the past, like when I spent $99 on the 11 pack of shielding wards (when they were 11k each and the package was a good deal, before they were reduced to 5.5k, in line with KMS) to get my Empress axe to a measly 8 stars, Star Force certainly made that a huge waste, but Star Force is ultimately better than the old enhancing system, and same as that, this is a change that is ultimately more positive than sticking with nebulites and foregoing additional options.

    And the disparity I'm describing exists in our economy today because I'm am describing exactly our economy today, but I'm posing additional options as a way to lessen the gap. There's no way a person who suddenly becomes able to do CRA would have any advantage to selling a piece of CRA gear over the people who have been doing it forever and ever unless there was some variance in the equipment people are selling. Additional options give people a better chance to make some money. It's not a complete solution, however, because the reason KMS can have such a nice gradual gradation between equips of different stats is also because overall, their meso is stronger than ours. It's much more viable for a KMS player to win it big in the game of clean equips because the cost gap between the low end and wide end is much smaller. But getting into reducing botting and add huge, viable meso sinks is just another bucket of worms entirely.

    Flames are not the only way to way to change additional options. You can fuse items and you can hunt for new ones, both of which are much more viable for weaker players than people who have almost completed gears. Fusing Pensalirs for additional options, or any equipment set, really, and transfer hammering up some epic potentials, even epic bonus potentials from low level equips, also from fusing, is a viable upgrading path in KMS, while I certainly can't say the same for us. Do you think it's more likely for a poor player to be at the mercy of accessory crafters when they can still fuse new gear, or the people with primed CRA equips that would be a pain to rescroll, where flames are the only path for them?

    You know what flames from bosses are good for? Disassembling for crafting materials. You can't flame items that came into existence after additional options became a thing, and even though we never got additional options at the time, the restriction came into effect when Unleashed hit. You can see what items you can flame vs what you can't via the semi-transparent flame icon (can flame) or white dot (can't flame) present on the equip's picture on its tooltip. Most of our gear can only be flamed via the crafted flames, which of course, come from accessory crafting, or, you know, the tons of event shops, attendance events, or just various giveaways they have for them in KMS (another key difference between additional options and nebulites). Flames are not as rare as you seem to think they are, nor are they completely out of the reach of the hands of poor players, again, as you seem to think they are.

    I can be optimistic about flames because it comes from KMS and they've supported the system for the last 5 years, while nebulites have sucked for the last 6 years, there is a very clear distinction between the level of support Nexon has for each system. The one big change to nebulites is having tradeable fusion tickets added to gachapon, which, fat chance having weaker players afford that, especially when nebulites are the last thing they should be thinking about. History has proven one choice is clearly better than the other. The fact is, whatever differs from KMS, no matter how much we may like it, will end up neglected and unchanged. It's seems especially certain for things only we have, not present in other servers, for example, our version of nebulites. Then there are the things which eventually become what KMS has, like the boss HP changes which one of the producers at the time, Girasol, swore we wouldn't get, but we did, without additional options to give us a boost for handling it, or our custom Luminous, Angelic Buster, and Kaiser. For game systems, sticking to things KMS does is best.

    Likewise, how can you be so adamantly against the system when you've demonstrated such a lack of understanding of it. It's like you said before, "Save me the spiel about AO I've heard it a thousand times", a lot of your arguments have been against some version of additional options that you've built up in your head as how they will be, despite the drastic difference between how they've actually been in the versions which do have them, which I too have heard a thousand times. I'll admit that I don't know how they would implement additional options, but I'm confident it'll be between the two implementations they've already done so far, but you should also admit that you too don't know the effects additional options would have, nor how they would be implemented. Why assume the worst case about the widening gap when there are already cases of additional options in action where you can see what the effects were?

    Oh, there also exists the possibility of "the darkest timeline", additional options plus the cash based Black Flames, which are NX flames that let you choose between before and after flames. They're fairly cheap, so either we go with them, or you know, it wouldn't be the first time players use the power of outrage to deny a cash based advantage into the game (though, this would be outside of Reboot, for the first time)

    This man this are excatly my thoughts ! , that's why i want flames. to have a Free nebulites obtainable from events and pretty much from everywhere, +KMS supports this system, so it get's updated everytime, flames in kms got updated like 7 times already for the new sets absolab,arcane shade/umbra, while nebs are being neglected/for the paying players/rich ones.

    also i do strongly hope we won't get any nx flames, the reason we even want flames is that they are from events, and they are : F.R.E.E !
  • ZephyrusSpringZephyrusSpring
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    edited October 2017
    You accuse me of having a warped idea of AO and yet your view of the economy is off in fairyland. You think AO will unlock the market to weak players? If they're strong enough to kill CRA then they're not weak players. Nobody is going to want to buy their pensalir when everybody can fuse their own. Free players haven't stood a chance in the gear market since Big Bang and AO is not about to change that. The only people that buy clean stuff are poor players or funded players looking to power it up and resell it. You are suggesting that in order for weak players to make use of AO they have to abandon anything beyond pensalir gear. Do I have that right? Buying fafnir gear from the market would leave them stuck with whatever stats it had until they can get their hands on crafted/event flames. The mindset of "events will solve the supply issue" is exactly the reason why players get stuck at epic rank on their potentials. Relying on events for progression is what's killing this game and why so many jumped ship to Reboot. The nature of the game makes it a wasteful effort to poor non-transferable resources into gear. AO will not suddenly make players able to defeat CRA with epic rank potentials and cubes are too rare on regular servers to use on pensalir. I assure you AO will not be as accessible or useful to weak players as you make it out to be. You can have fafnir gear and still be weak. Just because fusing pensalir is viable for using AO does not make it viable equipment to invest other systems into. Also note that you couldn't even start trying to cube or scroll or anything until you've finished fusing for a good AO.

    I admit I forgot about the white dot and the restrictions it holds. There's no point talking about the level 140 boss flame because players wouldn't even be able to use it on their pensalir stuff. Fusing or using the crimson/rainbow flames are the only options available for anyone who started in the last three years. You can poke fun all you like but you do realize this supports my argument further, right? Everybody will be at the mercy of events and crafters. Funded players like myself will be fine because most of my stuff doesn't have the dot and I'm strong enough to go and get boss flames myself. Sure it won't be tier 4 or 5 lines but it's better than having no AO which is what anyone but the weakest of players will be stuck with until the crafters get going and the events start handing out rainbow flames.

    I can't deny that AO will breathe life back into accessory crafting. But if that's the goal there are a number of different ways to do that which don't involve adding a new upgrade system. Crafting nebs, buffing the meister set to rival superior gollux, etc.

    I don't have to assume anything to know AO will widen the gap, it's very simple logic. This is the point I have been stating repeatedly since the start and no one has been able to address it beyond "oh you don't really know what'll happen". Free players will not be able to reroll their AO to its fullest potential. They may settle for +24 stat while the funded keep rolling until they get their +40. AO is just another line of potential. You have to gamble away what you already have for a chance at something better. Only AO doesn't guarantee you won't drop a tier. It's wishful thinking that weak players will be able to get as many of these flames as strong players.

    We know for a fact that only rainbow flames have a chance at tier 5 lines, and if weak players buy any flames at all do you think it'll be the rainbow flames or the cheaper crimson flames? We know for a fact that the systems already in place allow players to get strong enough to defeat the hardest boss in the game. We know AO is not strong enough to give weak players the kickstart they need to start fighting meaningful bosses based on their tenure in other versions. We know it'll increase the damage gap. You have yet to sufficiently counter any of these facts, because you can't; they're facts. If you think I don't understand AO then feel free to correct me. I hope you can bring something new to the table for your sake. If anyone can explain the difference between crimson, rainbow, and regular boss flames and also about the white dot then I'm all ears. Maybe you'll see reason while you're typing it out.

    Also Dax, when I said selling crafting materials is the way to go, I didn't mean whatever less profitable method you're talking about, I meant selling cubic blades. That's how I made my fortune, and while much less profitable than it used to be, it's still an easy way to make money. That and selling clean slates.
  • DaxterbeerDaxterbeer
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    edited October 2017
    mr-ponchos-union-coin-shop.png?width=134&height=560
    laos-shop-4.png
    aishas-shop1.png?width=126&height=558

    Okay, assuming someone cannot produce Crimson/Power flames, the shops in game sells Crimson flames in shops such as Dojo and Legion with Legion being the easiest. As long someone has a Legion and remembers to utilize the shops in the game that have flames, they will not be "stuck" with fixed stats on their gear regardless of level. Although none of these shops sell the Eternal flames, free to plays will always have access Powerful Crimson Flames, which can still do the job of fixing unwanted stats. Events will be chances where the better Eternal Flames come. This is similar to how 60% Chaos Scrolls and 30% Chaos Scrolls of Goodness are always available in the game and people wait for Coin Shop events for Incredible Chaos Scrolls of Goodness.

    Yeah, I made my fortune too from selling materials except I keep the Cubic Blades since I am a Blacksmith. They are great getting me out of jams especially when I am short on dough. It isn't impossible to become rich from nothing, but it takes some brain and time.



  • OccireOccire
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    edited October 2017
    ...

    You treat your own viewpoints as objective fact and everything I say as speculation. It's not speculative, this is something that has been implemented and its effects can been seen. It's been working for the past 5 years, and the evidence is there, its effect on weaker players, its effect on stronger players, its effect on the market. To be fair, how it'll affect GMS is speculation, but it's had enough positives in KMS that I'm willing to risk it. But clearly you imply that you see something different happening?

    Plus, you keep focusing on flames when I say flames are not the only way to get better additional options. I'm not suggesting people rely on flames. Good additional options are enough for a decent boost, great ones are always better, but not that much more than good ones, and bad additional options won't ruin you. Can you say the same for any of the other upgrading systems we have?

    Here's an Aran with epic equips. Here's the same Aran soloing Chaos Vellum with those equips.
    Here's a KMSer who seems to specialize in doing epic setting (에픽세팅) videos.
  • ZephyrusSpringZephyrusSpring
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    edited October 2017
    I asked you guys to explain the difference between crimson flames and rainbow flames and you haven't. Funny how you then suggest that free players will have decent access to crimson flames and say its fine. Do you expect weak players to have a strong legion or make good runs in the dojo? I don't. Rainbow flames are guaranteed to give at least rank 2 lines with a chance of rank 5 lines. Crimson flames only provide tiers 1 to 4. That there is proof that the damage gap will increase. The rich will be able to buy and make a lot more rainbow flames than the poor, and will have better AO because of it. This is another fact you guys have refused to acknowledge. Who were the players buying all the no-boom AEEs? Who are the players buying prime scrolls? Who were the players buying chaos cubic blades from me for 50m almost every day? It wasn't the poor players.

    Potentials and cubes have been "working" since Big Bang, that doesn't make them healthy for the game. Fusing is not viable for progression. There's no guarantee you'll ever get a decent AO, and as I said you can't start applying the other systems until you're done fusing. You could use the transfer hammer to pass your fusions up the chain to your actual gear, but again you're limiting your progression to the restrictions of the hammer. Every time you use it you're wiping away any resources you put into scrolling and starring. Then when you get something decent you stick with it until you reroll it with an event flame. Oh it made your AO worse? Deal with it or start fusing all over again. It's not viable.

    Who are you trying to kid with those videos? "Epic" tier. LOL. Most of their gear has at least 9% stat, with a number of good bonus potentials which is something free gms players can only dream of. In KMS they hand out occult cubes like its going out of style. In GMS you're more likely to rank up to unique than get a double line on your gear. You know exactly what I mean when I say epic tier potentials in the context of GMS: A single line of 6% stat. This is a strong player with huge funds purposely limiting themselves to the best that epic tier potentials can provide. You do realize they have tyrants, right? If a player can do 15m per line to a boss with no pdr I'd consider them strong. This guy is doing it on a boss with 300% pdr. They've used better than +5 atk scrolls on their polearm. They've starred a lot of their stuff beyond 10 stars. They've got 3 starred tyrants. Linking those videos is an insult to the discussion.
  • PhantomMasterThiefPhantomMasterThief
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    edited October 2017
    I asked you guys to explain the difference between crimson flames and rainbow flames and you haven't. Funny how you then suggest that free players will have decent access to crimson flames and say its fine. Do you expect weak players to have a strong legion or make good runs in the dojo? I don't. Rainbow flames are guaranteed to give at least rank 2 lines with a chance of rank 5 lines. Crimson flames only provide tiers 1 to 4. That there is proof that the damage gap will increase. The rich will be able to buy and make a lot more rainbow flames than the poor, and will have better AO because of it. This is another fact you guys have refused to acknowledge. Who were the players buying all the no-boom AEEs? Who are the players buying prime scrolls? Who were the players buying chaos cubic blades from me for 50m almost every day? It wasn't the poor players.

    Potentials and cubes have been "working" since Big Bang, that doesn't make them healthy for the game. Fusing is not viable for progression. There's no guarantee you'll ever get a decent AO, and as I said you can't start applying the other systems until you're done fusing. You could use the transfer hammer to pass your fusions up the chain to your actual gear, but again you're limiting your progression to the restrictions of the hammer. Every time you use it you're wiping away any resources you put into scrolling and starring. Then when you get something decent you stick with it until you reroll it with an event flame. Oh it made your AO worse? Deal with it or start fusing all over again. It's not viable.

    Who are you trying to kid with those videos? "Epic" tier. LOL. Most of their gear has at least 9% stat, with a number of good bonus potentials which is something free gms players can only dream of. In KMS they hand out occult cubes like its going out of style. In GMS you're more likely to rank up to unique than get a double line on your gear. You know exactly what I mean when I say epic tier potentials in the context of GMS: A single line of 6% stat. This is a strong player with huge funds purposely limiting themselves to the best that epic tier potentials can provide. You do realize they have tyrants, right? If a player can do 15m per line to a boss with no pdr I'd consider them strong. This guy is doing it on a boss with 300% pdr. They've used better than +5 atk scrolls on their polearm. They've starred a lot of their stuff beyond 10 stars. They've got 3 starred tyrants. Linking those videos is an insult to the discussion.

    Stop being so negative about it!.

    maplers need to help each other not stab each other ~smh~

    do you even play Maple Story?

    also if your that curious about flames go ask Kobe aka iSlingGunz.

    and in short flames will help the f2p, want proof? kobe could kill cra with epic pot flamed equpis, there!

    in gms we need at least unique 17/21% to even touch cra.

    go and spread your negativity elsewhere, we have enough problems in gms as it is, if you don't help, then don't. but also don't try to boot


    a system that will benefit F2P, oh and btw i'm F2P not P2W if your were wondering, so no i don't want flames just to be able to solo lucid, but to

    be able to at least cra without spening a ton of nx.

    and flames are present in every version of MapleStory but gms, and everyone happys about it.
  • PhantomMasterThiefPhantomMasterThief
    Reactions: 3,190
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    edited October 2017
    I asked you guys to explain the difference between crimson flames and rainbow flames and you haven't. Funny how you then suggest that free players will have decent access to crimson flames and say its fine. Do you expect weak players to have a strong legion or make good runs in the dojo? I don't. Rainbow flames are guaranteed to give at least rank 2 lines with a chance of rank 5 lines. Crimson flames only provide tiers 1 to 4. That there is proof that the damage gap will increase. The rich will be able to buy and make a lot more rainbow flames than the poor, and will have better AO because of it. This is another fact you guys have refused to acknowledge. Who were the players buying all the no-boom AEEs? Who are the players buying prime scrolls? Who were the players buying chaos cubic blades from me for 50m almost every day? It wasn't the poor players.

    Potentials and cubes have been "working" since Big Bang, that doesn't make them healthy for the game. Fusing is not viable for progression. There's no guarantee you'll ever get a decent AO, and as I said you can't start applying the other systems until you're done fusing. You could use the transfer hammer to pass your fusions up the chain to your actual gear, but again you're limiting your progression to the restrictions of the hammer. Every time you use it you're wiping away any resources you put into scrolling and starring. Then when you get something decent you stick with it until you reroll it with an event flame. Oh it made your AO worse? Deal with it or start fusing all over again. It's not viable.

    Who are you trying to kid with those videos? "Epic" tier. LOL. Most of their gear has at least 9% stat, with a number of good bonus potentials which is something free gms players can only dream of. In KMS they hand out occult cubes like its going out of style. In GMS you're more likely to rank up to unique than get a double line on your gear. You know exactly what I mean when I say epic tier potentials in the context of GMS: A single line of 6% stat. This is a strong player with huge funds purposely limiting themselves to the best that epic tier potentials can provide. You do realize they have tyrants, right? If a player can do 15m per line to a boss with no pdr I'd consider them strong. This guy is doing it on a boss with 300% pdr. They've used better than +5 atk scrolls on their polearm. They've starred a lot of their stuff beyond 10 stars. They've got 3 starred tyrants. Linking those videos is an insult to the discussion.

    Stop being so negative about it!.

    maplers need to help each other not stab each other ~smh~

    do you even play Maple Story?

    also if your that curious about flames go ask Kobe aka iSlingGunz.

    and in short flames will help the f2p, want proof? kobe could kill cra with epic pot flamed equpis, there!

    in gms we need at least unique 17/21% to even touch cra.

    go and spread your negativity elsewhere, we have enough problems in gms as it is, if you don't help, then don't. but also don't try to boot


    a system that will benefit F2P, oh and btw i'm F2P not P2W if your were wondering, so no i don't want flames just to be able to solo lucid, but to

    be able to at least cra without spening a ton of nx.

    and flames are present in every version of MapleStory but gms, and everyone happys about it.

    and for your question, Powerfull Flames can give the same stats, as [A] Nebulites, there you happy?
  • DaxterbeerDaxterbeer
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    edited October 2017

    This thread was designed to convince Nexon, not an individual who fines a flaw in every idea we come with to implement a system that would benefit a majority of players. I do understand that everything that benefits becomes magnified for strong players, it certainly is a lot better compared to the currently in place.

    Free players, not casuals will benefit from this system. I cannot make a make a suggestion that benefits the players who appear once or week or whenever there is a full room. Players who do the same task daily such as grind aren't going to benefit much either. Players that take advantage of everything such as dailies and visiting the Dojo, spending time in their profession will get rewarded nicely. There are so many opportunities for getting Crimson Flames, but they all take time.






    PhantomMasterThiefNyara
  • ArrowsMindArrowsMind
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    edited October 2017
    I don't get why gms doesn't ahve 25* cap yet nor flames cause now litterly only the arcane umbra weapon is worth getting like cause the amount of attack you gain. currently best equipment build is aquarius crown transposed to sweetwater, tyrants transposed to sweetwater except belt. and you still ahve to use cra top and bottom.
    umbra weapon than superior set/meister set combination or superior set with hilla's rage and forest guardian adns houlder abso/ black thinkerers
    Hilla's rage/ forest gaurdian are nearly impossible to getalso getting tyrants to 15* to transpose them and have perm untradeable godly gears nty.

    if starforce cap would be changed to 25* cap which would mean lvl 130gear+ can ahve 20* and lvl 140+ gear cang et up to 25* but you cannot get up to 25* but caps at 22* cause the rates become to low to go to 25*.

    so new possible gear builds would be absolabs 5 set with cra top/bott absolab containing the 5 set out of a (weap) hat shoulder cape boots glove would become a new possiblity its like ahving 13/14* tyrants hard to create but more people would be enable to reach early endgame this way
    solid ring would be enable to get to 20* in taht case would be a usefull ring not the best 6th best in slot than scarlet ring 5th best in slot cause 22* possibilty
    meister ring 4th ebst 22* possibility reinforced 3rth best 2nd ebst Breath of Divinity best superior ring
    possible accesory gear builds would be superior belt superiors pendant ring/reinforced ears pendant ring scarlet ring 4set reinforced/superior would be a nice obtion
    or you can do scarlet ring meister ring meister ears meister shoulder and superiors pendants ring and sue tyrant belt.
    or you can do if you use abso set or umbra set with scarlet shoulder solid ring / BoD than meister ring sueprior and reinforced superior pendants and superior ears
    those will be all viable obtions

    but now its just so limited to super endgame its not accesible that easely there is just a limited amount of people enable to fight certain bosses.

    Compare people pots of luna with normal gms and look at the amount of flamed gear they got/17*or 18* abd you will notice that Luna gear is way ahead of gms even if people have way less%stat on some items they got more attack if we want to make the game fair to everyone introduce flames and 25* cap so lvl 200 gear would be a real good set instead of

    down sides op 25* cap and flames are cost of getting 22* is quite high and rerolling flames till eprcetion takes time but hey thats just something you ahve to work with to get to super endgame.
  • PirateIzzyPirateIzzy
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    edited October 2017
    Additional Options aren't only good because "muh extruh damuge", but they also provide an incentive to use higher level equipment, specifically Absolab and Arcane Umbra. Right now there is 0 incentive to use the full set for either of those since Tyrant + CRA tops it, but if we had 25* and Additional Options, people would actually have a reason to use those 2 sets due to the massive boosts they gain in comparison to 150+ gear, especially considering Nexon's genius idea of giving those 2 sets overalls instead of top/bottom. And since KMS is making these items drop from the hard mode versions of their respective bosses, those will get additional options by default. Plus, keep in mind that various event shops carry these flames, especially rainbow flames.

    If Nexon were to actually make Nebulites GOOD instead, I'd be all for that instead of Additional Options. But right now, it would take a massive overhaul of Nebulites to do that.
    Catooolooo
  • PhantomMasterThiefPhantomMasterThief
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    edited October 2017
    when you buy absolab or arcane equipment from their shops, they already come with randomized additional options, and you can keep rebuying untill you get the perfect ones, flames are only to reroll additional options, (after we get flames of rebirth in gms) all the items in game would start dropping with additional options already on them, and flames are a much more balanced system then nebulites. (every region has flames and kms keeps supporting them) there's a ton of ways to get flames even if your'e a f2p or p2w it doesn't matter.

    the eternal flames come from monster collection, event shops,crafting, attendance checks,buying from other players, and other events. for ex; every event where we get icogs 50/60%, other regions get powerfull/eternal flames of rebirth instead.

    powerfull flames aren't that bad as you might think, they can give the same if not better stats, then [A] nebulites give currently.

    also every cra,abso,arcane equip would be unique as each one will have different additional options on them, and it will be an incentive to farm for better cra equpis, or sell/buy for lower/higher price, because the additional options are different on each item.
  • ZephyrusSpringZephyrusSpring
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    edited October 2017
    Phantom you misunderstood. I already know all there is to know about AO. I asked them (or anyone) to explain the difference between the two crafted flames in their own words in the hope that they'd see the same perspective while forming their ideas into coherent sentences. Though it seems even after explaining it myself Dax still doesn't get it. :(

    I also want my secondary characters to be able to defeat CRA without spending NX or buying gear in the fm. That's why I recommended fiddling with existing systems. I can see the game is heavily P2W just like you can, however I have to heavily disagree with your proposed methods of fixing it because it won't actually fix it. Imagine how quickly players could progress if CHT was guaranteed to drop one cube per person? Imagine if nebulite boxes dropped reasonably frequently and only had one stat tier per rank? There are so many ways to reduce the P2W in this game but you guys have tunnel vision on AO.

    P.S. For the stats that matter, [A] nebs barely match the lowest tier of AO. If you watched iSlingGunz' videos you'd know that.
  • CatoooloooCatooolooo
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    edited October 2017
    ArrowsMind wrote: »
    if starforce cap would be changed to 25* cap which would mean lvl 130gear+ can ahve 20* and lvl 140+ gear cang et up to 25* but you cannot get up to 25* but caps at 22* cause the rates become to low to go to 25*.

    dude, why would you waste 20* on 130~140 gears, that might be fine in KMS because they don't have teir 4 pot lines but we do in GMS, better to 20* current 150 gears or 160 gears (SW or Absolab) if we ever got 25*

    Flames and AO are alright but I would rather they just revamp the Nebulite system if they do not want to introduce flames in GMS.

    also a good reminder is that if we ever did get flames, it will likely be the KMS variant and not the EMS version.

    but I also do not think this discussion or thread should die, if there were ever a place to rally behind the introduction of flames into GMS, this would be the thread for it.
  • DaxterbeerDaxterbeer
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    edited October 2017
    I asked you guys to explain the difference between crimson flames and rainbow flames and you haven't. Funny how you then suggest that free players will have decent access to crimson flames and say its fine. Do you expect weak players to have a strong legion or make good runs in the dojo? I don't. Rainbow flames are guaranteed to give at least rank 2 lines with a chance of rank 5 lines. Crimson flames only provide tiers 1 to 4. That there is proof that the damage gap will increase. The rich will be able to buy and make a lot more rainbow flames than the poor, and will have better AO because of it. This is another fact you guys have refused to acknowledge. Who were the players buying all the no-boom AEEs? Who are the players buying prime scrolls? Who were the players buying chaos cubic blades from me for 50m almost every day? It wasn't the poor players.

    He seems he already covered the difference already, but I understand the difference as well.

    Since he using tiers 1-4, Zephyrus is talking about MSEA's scaled down version of flames. Powerful Flames and Eternal Flames can reconfigure that stats of any flammable item. The difference is Red Flames' results vary from from 1-4 and Eternal Flames have a pool of results ranging from 2-5. Eternal Flames result pool min and max results are basically shifted up 1 level. KMS's flame system similar except everything is shifted and their minimum results begin at 3 and end at 7 while all Eternal and Powerful Flame ranges are bumped up 2 levels as well.

    MSEA Dropped Items 1234
    MSEA Powerful Flames 1234
    MSEA Eternal Flames 2345
    KMS Dropped Items 3456
    KMS Powerful Flames 3456
    KMS Eternal Flames 4567
    also a good reminder is that if we ever did get flames, it will likely be the KMS variant and not the EMS version.

    KMS flames is stronger compared to EMS and MSEA's, but KMS has scissor counts of them. MSEA and EMS don't have scissor counts, but they must reduce their level range is 1-5 instead of KMS's 3-7.

    https://strategywiki.org/wiki/MapleStory/Additional_Options_and_Nebulites has the table comparing the result sizes between levels how the interval different equips follow based on equipment level.

    PhantomMasterThief
  • PhantomMasterThiefPhantomMasterThief
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    edited October 2017
    Daxterbeer wrote: »
    I asked you guys to explain the difference between crimson flames and rainbow flames and you haven't. Funny how you then suggest that free players will have decent access to crimson flames and say its fine. Do you expect weak players to have a strong legion or make good runs in the dojo? I don't. Rainbow flames are guaranteed to give at least rank 2 lines with a chance of rank 5 lines. Crimson flames only provide tiers 1 to 4. That there is proof that the damage gap will increase. The rich will be able to buy and make a lot more rainbow flames than the poor, and will have better AO because of it. This is another fact you guys have refused to acknowledge. Who were the players buying all the no-boom AEEs? Who are the players buying prime scrolls? Who were the players buying chaos cubic blades from me for 50m almost every day? It wasn't the poor players.

    He seems he already covered the difference already, but I understand the difference as well.

    Since he using tiers 1-4, Zephyrus is talking about MSEA's scaled down version of flames. Powerful Flames and Eternal Flames can reconfigure that stats of any flammable item. The difference is Red Flames' results vary from from 1-4 and Eternal Flames have a pool of results ranging from 2-5. Eternal Flames result pool min and max results are basically shifted up 1 level. KMS's flame system similar except everything is shifted and their minimum results begin at 3 and end at 7 while all Eternal and Powerful Flame ranges are bumped up 2 levels as well.

    MSEA Dropped Items 1234
    MSEA Powerful Flames 1234
    MSEA Eternal Flames 2345
    KMS Dropped Items 3456
    KMS Powerful Flames 3456
    KMS Eternal Flames 4567
    also a good reminder is that if we ever did get flames, it will likely be the KMS variant and not the EMS version.

    KMS flames is stronger compared to EMS and MSEA's, but KMS has scissor counts of them. MSEA and EMS don't have scissor counts, but they must reduce their level range is 1-5 instead of KMS's 3-7.

    https://strategywiki.org/wiki/MapleStory/Additional_Options_and_Nebulites has the table comparing the result sizes between levels how the interval different equips follow based on equipment level.
    Daxterbeer wrote: »
    I asked you guys to explain the difference between crimson flames and rainbow flames and you haven't. Funny how you then suggest that free players will have decent access to crimson flames and say its fine. Do you expect weak players to have a strong legion or make good runs in the dojo? I don't. Rainbow flames are guaranteed to give at least rank 2 lines with a chance of rank 5 lines. Crimson flames only provide tiers 1 to 4. That there is proof that the damage gap will increase. The rich will be able to buy and make a lot more rainbow flames than the poor, and will have better AO because of it. This is another fact you guys have refused to acknowledge. Who were the players buying all the no-boom AEEs? Who are the players buying prime scrolls? Who were the players buying chaos cubic blades from me for 50m almost every day? It wasn't the poor players.

    He seems he already covered the difference already, but I understand the difference as well.

    Since he using tiers 1-4, Zephyrus is talking about MSEA's scaled down version of flames. Powerful Flames and Eternal Flames can reconfigure that stats of any flammable item. The difference is Red Flames' results vary from from 1-4 and Eternal Flames have a pool of results ranging from 2-5. Eternal Flames result pool min and max results are basically shifted up 1 level. KMS's flame system similar except everything is shifted and their minimum results begin at 3 and end at 7 while all Eternal and Powerful Flame ranges are bumped up 2 levels as well.

    MSEA Dropped Items 1234
    MSEA Powerful Flames 1234
    MSEA Eternal Flames 2345
    KMS Dropped Items 3456
    KMS Powerful Flames 3456
    KMS Eternal Flames 4567
    also a good reminder is that if we ever did get flames, it will likely be the KMS variant and not the EMS version.

    KMS flames is stronger compared to EMS and MSEA's, but KMS has scissor counts of them. MSEA and EMS don't have scissor counts, but they must reduce their level range is 1-5 instead of KMS's 3-7.

    https://strategywiki.org/wiki/MapleStory/Additional_Options_and_Nebulites has the table comparing the result sizes between levels how the interval different equips follow based on equipment level.

    Wow, so the Additional options system is even more in depth then i thought, and i was beginning to doubt ao, now i'm completely onboard :)

    Nexon should do an EMS to GMS, remove nebs from the game, but not already on equpiment, and add additional options and flames to gms.

    ( because if we keep both then that's just too much power creep imo)

    yea flames give more power then nebs, but the system is more balanced, in depth, and fair and can be utilized without spending nx. imo flames are the next step for setting gms on the right track again.
  • ArrowsMindArrowsMind
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    edited October 2017
    so there are multiple mistakes you guys are making about ems and msea flames thinking they are the same ems flames aka how gear in luna is EU server we had in EMS KMS flames so bassicly we had up to tier 7 and msea caps at teir 5 flames so lets compare what the diffrence is ebtween tier 7 and 5 first so you guys know the diffrence.
    Tier 7 flames are like 7%all and 70-110stat on cra on umbra gear 90-150stat also weapon att calculation on tier 7 falem for umbra is 63%off the att base
    Tier 6 flames are 6%all 51-69stat on cra and on umbra 70-89 stat for umbra weapon is 48% of the amount att of the weapons base
    Tiet 5 flames are 5%all 41-50stat on cra and umbra 50-69 umbra weapon 36.4%of amount of att base
    that are the top 3 tiers msea caps at ttier 5 ems capped at tier 7 so if they introduce a system of tier 5 flames its still not balanced in a sence.
    best what can be done is 20* cap at old ems/msea starforce ratio to not make anyone too overpowerd so people cap out at like 18* items or 17* and use tier 7 flames to balance everyones gear out, reason why this would be nice is than people who got a hilla's rage/BoD/Magnus Rage and forest guardian can keep there rings cause 17* meister is +17att and 17* scarlet is +15att so than people cap ring out at lower amount of stars than kms
    but it makes more possible gear sets possible like starring up a tyrant belt isnt like required to a certain extent with such changes like super endgame its good to have but you can get away with a 17* gollux belt which would be like 74att 133stat which isnt too bad so more people can reach more bosses without needing to spend too much money into the game. i am myself from the Luna server and got all my tyrants flamed except gloves and got gear between tier 5-7 flames so if nexon would introduce a tier 5 flame count like msea i would have in a sence a upper edge which wouldnt be fair also most my gear is nebbed so removing nebs and keeping them on equipments would give me an even bigger advantage so why not keep nebs introduce like 20* cap with msea / old ems ratio and get kms aka ems flames so everyone can progress furthere instead of me being stuk in a sence of adding it and not being enable to progress any futhere if they cap at tier 5 flames only way for me to improve my gear would be rerolling powerfulls/eternals till i get 5%all with like 48stat minimum and prime it up and gain like probeply about 20stat but cost of doing that would be like really insane. so best solution is flame cap tier 7 20* cap and do lvl 200 gear only 25* cap so umbra gear would be viable.

    btw many people forget about kms there mqee scrolls and say gollux would have a magere upper edge. but 12* mqee gear in kms scarlet ring 74att 115stat
    mesiter ring 82att 117stat sealed ring 62att 84stat silverblossom 48att 72stat orso . in a sence gms gear is a nicer base atm but it caps out too early so people cant progress too much furthure and dont see the point in playing anymore a new sf cap/flames introduction would give people way more room to improve so players will return try to become strogner and its more affordable to fund yourself since eternal falmes are from events and elite boxes and powerfull falmes can be farmed in game so its not that any player would have an advantage to any oltehr player in wise of flames everyone can obtain them the same ways you can trade em.

    so lets introduce starforce 20* cap on all gear except umbra gear and give lvl 200 gear 25* cap
    to equall everything out and introduce tier 7 flames and keep nebs so noone would be left out


  • NyaraNyara
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    edited October 2017
    To those suggesting Nebulite revamp: it is a bad idea. Just look at what happened to Kanna now, GMS just does not know how to balance their own content. Any revamp will result in a broken system full of bugs that will be adressed in years worth of time, and likely will result in an overall nerf than anything else. Even if a revamp is succesfully done, the system is still heavily unbalanced in nature: you have nebulites that almost removes status and knockouts altogether, removing much of the need for mechanics and skills against a plethora of bosses. You have nebulites that can add invencibility per hit for pretty much eternally, nebulites which gives so much ignore defense that the potential lines becomes useless and so on. If you remove D Nebulites you will give players a way too much power since C-B Nebulites can get a way too strong sometimes, whereas the current D are trash altogether.

    And the P2W, oh, the P2W. Any necessary massive revamp to balance out the system will ultimately end with a lot of players frustrasted that the nebulies they invested so much in obtaining became worthless, which is about the same problem with just changing the system to Flames altogether. For those with concerns about losing all their nebulites in a change of systems, the solution is a rather straigthfoward. Nexon just need to open an event shop with Flames and a system to exchange your nebulites for coins for the shop, and an item capable of removing nebulites from equips without destroying them (which can cost like 100 million mesos each and they can add a NX based pack for 5 to make it profitable for Nexon). After a given time, nebulites from equips and items will be gone altogether and everyone should be gifted some extra flames for the invonvenences, and that is all, loss controlled, migrating from a system to the other does not have to mean a finger for everyone with a lot of Nebulites now.

    About why Flames are great, they, just, are, period. They are a far more gradual kind of upgrade which is not dependent in supremely bad drop rates, it is not P2W, it gives a punch in power to LV151+ equips which right now sucks in GMS, it gives an incentive (and surprise) to get many copies of the same equip rather just selling them forever on, they combo with events so much better. And ultimately, it gives more power to most players without the need of cubes, but in a more balanced way. KMS does not do everyone all right, but Flames are just simply put one of the best things they have put out from their hat. The most funny thing is that removing Flames is actually costlier for Nexon, since they need to reprogram every single update, content and event to intentionally remove them, since Flames ARE ALREADY CODED IN THE GAME, so it is much simpler, and much less bug prone to just stop interfering and making them available.
    PhantomMasterThiefDoKing
  • CatoooloooCatooolooo
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    edited October 2017
    most of the kanna and hayato changes came from CMS or TMS actually, not GMS directly.

    a nebulite revamp could be fine if it was actually developed by the GMS team and not just ported from a different region like CMS or TMS since CMS has a very limited nebulite system. GMS already made it slightly better, all they have to do now is revamp it and make it GMS's own, but it can't be done by another region or we get what happened to kanna.

    I'm trying to say, a nebulite revamp isn't terrible, it will be made terrible if it's not something made exclusively to cater to us GMS players.

    but if you want to talk about non-KMS content that's having a bad time, look no further than Beast tamer, that has had no revamps that improve her gameplay in any of the regions that have her released.

    I understand that flames are great in their own right, and yea, they system is already coded into the game, but so are nebs, all they have to do is make minor changes to make the system better.

    I'm also going to say that this shouldn't be a "Nebs vs flames" debate as Nexon has not said "we are not getting the flame system due to us having the neb system" this is purely speculation; CMS happens to have both nebs and flames in their game and I think they also have a higher star cap.
  • PhantomMasterThiefPhantomMasterThief
    Reactions: 3,190
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    edited October 2017
    Catooolooo wrote: »
    most of the kanna and hayato changes came from CMS or TMS actually, not GMS directly.

    a nebulite revamp could be fine if it was actually developed by the GMS team and not just ported from a different region like CMS or TMS since CMS has a very limited nebulite system. GMS already made it slightly better, all they have to do now is revamp it and make it GMS's own, but it can't be done by another region or we get what happened to kanna.

    I'm trying to say, a nebulite revamp isn't terrible, it will be made terrible if it's not something made exclusively to cater to us GMS players.

    but if you want to talk about non-KMS content that's having a bad time, look no further than Beast tamer, that has had no revamps that improve her gameplay in any of the regions that have her released.

    I understand that flames are great in their own right, and yea, they system is already coded into the game, but so are nebs, all they have to do is make minor changes to make the system better.

    I'm also going to say that this shouldn't be a "Nebs vs flames" debate as Nexon has not said "we are not getting the flame system due to us having the neb system" this is purely speculation; CMS happens to have both nebs and flames in their game and I think they also have a higher star cap.

    Cms only had nebulites as a 1 time event item, even they are using flames. please don't post about nebulites in a flames thread, you got your neb thread then post there! this thread is desgined to convince nexon to bring flames of rebirth. and for you answer on the neb thread. they have stated TWICE! on stream, that they might bring flames and 25 star force to gms. so please go back to your thread.

    ty and have a nice day :)

    edit: i agree this shouldn't be a fight of Flames Vs Nebs.

    in the end of the day, we just want to make gms better, that's all :)