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Lack of balance between classes

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  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018
    "piercing arrow cant one hit mobs when youre close to them"


    with just link skills passed to the marksman, it hits just the same amount as my Hero. nothing else changed from the first video only full faf set and link skills.

  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited October 2018
    I'm going to offer some outside perspective on this issue.
    I've played both Marksman and Hero.
    My Hero is about level 125 or so, from my limited knowledge and understanding of hero, it is an extremely weak class.
    I hated playing hero, it's probably one of my least favorite classes in the entire game.
    I could suggest they change it so that the bossing skill Enrage, to allow you to hit more than one enemy.
    I could compare it to Marksman, where I'm able to blast through all my enemies with relative ease and I feel extremely powerful.
    This is not hypothetical. This is how I actually feel about Hero.
    However I know it is not my place to decide how Hero should be played, because I don't like the class.
    I might however, learn to love the class if I actually gave it a chance.

    To sum up, this has happened to me in the past.
    I've always loved the IDEA of Fire/Poison Mage.
    It was my first class in Maplestory all the way back when the game first released.
    However I hated it. Why? Because I thought the poison should be able to kill mobs.
    I never gave the class a chance because I was too upset about one small element of the class.
    When I started playing MS again a few years ago, I played it all the way up to 5th job.
    Suddenly, the whole notion that I had that DoT should be able to kill didn't matter.
    In fact, I'd say I'm GLAD it can't kill, since a few of the skills depend on enemies having DoT stacks.

    The only way I was able to actually able to learn to love the class was to actually play it like it was my main character. (And it actually is my main now.)
    If you do or have done this for Marksman and you still don't like the class, I'm sorry, it is not for you. You need to leave it alone.
    Plenty of people play Marksman and enjoy it. Some of those people might even not like Hero.
    You wouldn't want them to demand changes to hero, so please show the same respect to them.
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    dpm chart



    as you can see, hero is higher at #3 than marksman at #4 even when marksman is at maximum range. half of the time marksman is unable to attack from maximum range which means that in reality marksman would be much lower on this chart.

    this means that making rangefinder give 70% final damage regardless of range would only make it about as strong as hero, when it is currently not even close.(because you cant always attack at max range) even a reduced amount of final damage regardless of range would be better than what marksman get currently.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited October 2018
    crimson24 wrote: »
    dpm chart
    -snip-

    You realize all this DPM chart means is... you're complaining... the a class in the top 10%... needs to be BUFFED...
  • L4d2jpnL4d2jpn
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    edited October 2018
    Haha, keep it coming your idea of inbalance is unreal.

    You've been shown that visual range doesn't matter so now you're trying to defend yourself with a damage per minute YouTube video in which a #3 slot is higher than a #4 so that class #4 is horribly unbalanced?
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018
    I thought you were serious OP, but you’re using an unreliable form of support for your argument. DPM charts mean nothing to actual gameplay. Barely means anything to bossing.

    If you’re the type that chooses what to play based on DPM charts, you’ll be switching classes whenever there are balances and nerfs.
  • UserRedUserRed
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    edited October 2018
    The belief that all classes should deal the same damage is really dumb. Not all classes should be equal, there should be a bunch of strong classes, a bunch of fun classes, and a few underdog classes for the masochists out there. For example, Hero is meant to be strong melee DPS, and so it gets a load of damage. Same case with Marksman, who, until 5th job, had meh mobbing but great bossing. Now that's no longer the case with 5th job, but my point still stands that each class specializes in something. Bishop doesn't do great damage since it's a support class, and has loads of party play to compensate for its lack of damage. Same case with Kanna, who has a 20 second bind, Domain of the Spirit, Haku's Blessing, and Barriers.
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    UserRed wrote: »
    The belief that all classes should deal the same damage is really dumb. Not all classes should be equal, there should be a bunch of strong classes, a bunch of fun classes, and a few underdog classes for the masochists out there. For example, Hero is meant to be strong melee DPS, and so it gets a load of damage. Same case with Marksman, who, until 5th job, had meh mobbing but great bossing. Now that's no longer the case with 5th job, but my point still stands that each class specializes in something. Bishop doesn't do great damage since it's a support class, and has loads of party play to compensate for its lack of damage. Same case with Kanna, who has a 20 second bind, Domain of the Spirit, Haku's Blessing, and Barriers.

    with the same funding every job should do about the same damage, your idea that they shouldn't is what's dumb. Even support classes like bishop should have a decent amount of damage.
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    L4d2jpn wrote: »
    Haha, keep it coming your idea of inbalance is unreal.

    You've been shown that visual range doesn't matter so now you're trying to defend yourself with a damage per minute YouTube video in which a #3 slot is higher than a #4 so that class #4 is horribly unbalanced?
    marksman is #4 assuming you are at maximum range 100% of the time. In reality marksman is much lower because you can not stay at maximum range 100% of the time. When at half the distance of maximum range marksman is probably ranked in the 20s or 30s at best.

    hero does more damage than marksman even though marksman has to stay far away from an enemy to even do its full damage. hero is much easier to play, has a much easier time dealing its full damage and still does a lot more damage than marksman.
  • L4d2jpnL4d2jpn
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    edited October 2018
    Your idea of balance is to remove all the classes and to only have a class called "all" which has every skill.

    Then you'll complain that people that have cubed their gear is too op and you should be that strong without lifting a finger.

    Your idea of balance is flawed, but it's hella entertaining. Please don't stop.

    Oh and FYI, bishops have soloed lucid and will. But they should still get buffed cause you say so.
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018
    DPM charts are heavily controlled experiments; for bossing. In real case scenarios DPM charts are dismissed.

    I dont know why you refered to it as supporting your case.

    I'll get my Marksman to half the range of my hero and I'll post the video. I switched my bowmaster which is 174, so the levels wont be too much of a gap.

    My advice is take the DPM charts with a grain of salt. For example; you think a wild hunter worries about 2.7 stacks of another bite and jaguar storm for training?

    Hero only does the damage youre talking about 1v1. But when enrage is off the damage is leveled.


  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018


    not even half my Hero's range. 140 Starforce. No link skills.


    I'll do bossing comparisons as well
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited October 2018
    "Hero this, hero that."
    Hero sounds like a pretty broken class to me, perhaps it needs to be nerfed... /s

    crimson24 wrote: »

    with the same funding every job should do about the same damage, your idea that they shouldn't is what's dumb. Even support classes like bishop should have a decent amount of damage.

    So the class which can heal, survive death, give people buffs (Including attack speed, damage, HP/MP, Recovery rate..), increase EXP rates, face tank damage, clear debuffs, revive party members and has a sick dragon following him around...
    Should be just as strong as a class which is literally only there for DPS? Sounds about right.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited October 2018
    crimson24 wrote: »
    marksman is #4 assuming you are at maximum range 100% of the time. In reality marksman is much lower because you can not stay at maximum range 100% of the time. When at half the distance of maximum range marksman is probably ranked in the 20s or 30s at best.

    If Marksman is right smack in the middle of the DPS charts, shouldn't you be calling for a buff to everyone weaker than it, and a nerf for everyone stronger than it?
    If it's right in the middle, it seems like it would be the median point that you would want to tighten everything else around.
    Oh, and of course range finder has to go, since we can't be giving it a weird 70% damage increase some of the time.
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018
    he doesn't understand rangefinder is the bossing mechanic for marksman.

    Marksman already gets a lot of damage boosts (that don't show on stat window) from the passives like Vital Hunter, Mortal Blow, etc and skills like Bolt surplus that adds the extra line of damage.

    There's more to Marksman than rangefinder's 30% final damage; it has an extensive toolbox. He never considered Hero needs the final damage since his skills are inherently weak. I'll edit this comment with a Hilla comparison between my hero and marksman (560k + - vs 200k+ -)


  • DKnukunuDKnukunu
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    edited October 2018
    Not to mention that that DPM chart is mainly is to take into account their new 5th job skill.
    And in that regards, the new Hero 5th job skill is just that much better at a single target, which is why they are #3, and marksman #4.

    And if you want to use a DPM chart, disregarding the meaninglessness of it, use one that is relevant for the current patch.


  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    [
    DKnukunu wrote: »
    Not to mention that that DPM chart is mainly is to take into account their new 5th job skill.
    And in that regards, the new Hero 5th job skill is just that much better at a single target, which is why they are #3, and marksman #4.

    And if you want to use a DPM chart, disregarding the meaninglessness of it, use one that is relevant for the current patch.

    thanks for the current chart even though its better to look at the one I posted since that's what we are getting in 1-2months. Not much changes in regard to hero and marksman. Hero is still top 10 with damage that is much easier to apply when compared to a marksman who is going to be dealing much less than the 70% final damage it gets at max range.

    My point is that hero(and many other powerful classes) can realistically deal close to optimal damage, while marksman cannot. rangefinder should give 70%(or something slightly less) final damage regardless of range.

  • AznboiEAznboiE
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    edited October 2018
    YinYangX wrote: »
    Thieves' Last Resort.

    Every jobs has pros and cons, if you're going to comment about the cons of the class you main, go do research about all the other jobs.

    that skill would be optional to have, however, where as Marksman cant turn off rangefinder (even if it did, it would be the same as attacking monsters with range at 0 anyways) I think they should lower the max FD you can get at Max Range and add that removed FD to be a passive instead. So instead of 70% FD at max range they get 35% FD at max range and 25% FD (since it stacks, it would probably more or less equal the 70% when totalled) passive so it's not as harsh. They've done that to DualBlade's Final Cut, afterall.

    Also, that -% avoid chance penalty literally does nothing as there's no longer an avoid stat in-game omegalul. When it was out it would remove avoid from the avoidability stat, not the % chance to avoid attacks. Bowmasters have it worse as Defense is still barely a viable stat in game, which only gets worse as you get more defense, as it removes more defense.
    crimson24
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited October 2018
    AznboiE wrote: »
    Also, that -% avoid chance penalty literally does nothing as there's no longer an avoid stat in-game omegalul. When it was out it would remove avoid from the avoidability stat, not the % chance to avoid attacks. Bowmasters have it worse as Defense is still barely a viable stat in game, which only gets worse as you get more defense, as it removes more defense.

    I don't agree with the top half of giving them FD, I personally think Marksmen are fine, but this second point is a good one.
    With the removal of the avoidability stat, this should be changed to something else.
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018
    Crimson, what level is your hero and what level is your marksman? What are your stats? and what equips do you have?
This discussion has been closed.