«123»No more spirit to play after so many nerf...

Aggraphine

Jorjax said:

Arwen said:

I laid rest my Lumi because it's slow and now they nerf the teleport...one of Luminous speciality
I laid rest my Evan after the nerf
I laid rest my Bishop , because it's useful for HS only
I laid rest my Kaiser because of nerf
I laid rest Kanna, because it's usefull for Kishin only
I still only play my Battle Mage... It was once has a very good skill (Union Aura) , but they nerfed alot...3 times they have nerfed BAM. They take away the twister, they change some skill and add a new useless skil. If they nerfed it again..then i will rest for good..and will hybernate until Nexon learn from their mistake and they accept that every class has some special skills that others don't have. And i see how they hate Magician class alot .
Let's see...

Lumi = Exceptional amazing Bosser/Farmer
Bishop = Exceptional amazing farmer with low cooldown AoE + Bossing (Future Lucid)
Kaiser = Ranked 2nd in KMS DPS Chart.
Kanna = The only class that can use both 4x Fafnir set + X amount of SW set due to Haku's weapon slot...? Who's as close as Zero double potential weapons/stats? Wow?
BM = It's fine as it is... >_>

Now, let compared all your classes that you play with mine....

-Hero-
1) Nerf Multiple-times until their Raging blow isn't as good as it used to be (required 1.2x amount of funding to hit cap again).
2) Mid-Long cooldown AoE skills (Shout and Hyper typically) + Slow animation.
3) Crappy attack animation (regarding of both 1h and 2h attack speed).
4) Only has 1 main attack through all job advancements.
5) Sitting at the bottom of KMS DPS Chart.
6) Useless 5th job skill (Summon soul? Why not give us a shadow-partner like instead?).
7) Half-slow animation for Dash (Even with 0 Attack Speed Break cap).
8) Useless combo skill orbs? Compared to Paladin and Dark Knight who can hit 100% potential of their damage?
9) Panic + Puncture required to kill cap unless you have ton of $$$/Times to replace this. (Regarding of hitting cap without it).

I can go on if you like. I don't see what's wrong with the current Lumi and other classes except for Hero (The only explorer class that haven't receive much buff other than their main attack?).

The only thing wrong with Luminous is that you can no longer sit in one static location and mindlessly spam reflection for free levels. Sucks to be all those people who weighted their reflection key down to climb the rankings but weren't 250 yet.

MrsCute

Jorjax said:

Lumi = Exceptional amazing Bosser/Farmer
Bishop = Exceptional amazing farmer with low cooldown AoE + Bossing (Future Lucid)
Kaiser = Ranked 2nd in KMS DPS Chart.
Kanna = The only class that can use both 4x Fafnir set + X amount of SW set due to Haku's weapon slot...? Who's as close as Zero double potential weapons/stats? Wow?
BM = It's fine as it is... >_>

Now, let compared all your classes that you play with mine....

-Hero-
1) Nerf Multiple-times until their Raging blow isn't as good as it used to be (required 1.2x amount of funding to hit cap again).
2) Mid-Long cooldown AoE skills (Shout and Hyper typically) + Slow animation.
3) Crappy attack animation (regarding of both 1h and 2h attack speed).
4) Only has 1 main attack through all job advancements.
5) Sitting at the bottom of KMS DPS Chart.
6) Useless 5th job skill (Summon soul? Why not give us a shadow-partner like instead?).
7) Half-slow animation for Dash (Even with 0 Attack Speed Break cap).
8) Useless combo skill orbs? Compared to Paladin and Dark Knight who can hit 100% potential of their damage?
9) Panic + Puncture required to kill cap unless you have ton of $$$/Times to replace this. (Regarding of hitting cap without it).

I can go on if you like. I don't see what's wrong with the current Lumi and other classes except for Hero (The only explorer class that haven't receive much buff other than their main attack?).

You clearly haven't been playing long enough to see the kind of changes us Bowmasters go through.
Thought I'd mention that BMs effectively received a nerf, and indirectly got a nerf as it is one of the many few classes that DIDN'T receive a damage cap increase.

Now, let's go over the old Bowmaster changes shall we? These include direct and indirect nerfs. Just so you're aware, the only buff we've gotten that is remotely worth noting is the arrow blaster DR ignore, and the ability to move during hurricane.

1) Removed Dragon Burst AND Power Knockback. In other words, we can't attack close range AT ALL without using the reverse jump shot method
2) Biggest one that irritated me. Arrow Rain animation change. Was slowed down to literally 2~3 whole seconds per move, doing 1 line only.
3) Accuracy change. Archers no longer were unique in their insanely high accuracy. Used to be able to train at vikings level 41. No longer possible
4) Every other class got critical. Archers and thieves no longer were the unique critical classes.
5) Nerfed hurricane damage
6) Arrow rain got buffed to 3 hits, but that didn't matter because 3 hits per 2.5 seconds was practically useless.
7) Inferno (renamed Roasting shot lol) got slightly buffed as Arrow rain became a useless mobbing skill.
8) Removed Arrow Rain because it became such a useless skill.
9) RED happened, I consider this a moderate buff (but not as big compared to all the other explorer classes)
10) Nerfed hurricane damage (again)
11) Final Damage no longer proc'd on arrow blaster (effectively a 20~33% damage nerf depending on how you look at it)
12) Arrow blaster got a damage nerf
13) Arrow blaster duration reduced by approximately 40% duration
14) Arrow blaster now gets an attack speed decrease in exchange for a measely 10% hurricane damage buff that makes 0 difference when you hit cap
15) One of the few classes to not get a damage cap increase

Now since you brought up the topic of DPM, let's go over that as well. BM was sitting at 28th (out of 40) of KMS DPM chart 2015. Now it's at 35th post 5th job and changes. We've only gotten nerfs, and nerfs, and nerfs, despite being so low on the tier list. And well, they decide to nerf us again despite being low tier. Oh, I should also mention that according to the most recent KMS DPM chart, Heroes are sitting at 8th place with 10026542.92% DPM whileas Bowmasters are sitting at 35th with 6983119.10% DPM. That being said, take that with a grain of salt as I should remind you that DPM charts aren't very accurate due to many factors that influence a boss fight. For the most part though, BMs is significantly lower than that because our DPS skill is a single-target only, whileas most other classes utilize a skill that can hit many lines AND a decent amount of mobs as well; in other words, bosses like Chaos Zakum and Chaos Vellum SIGNIFICANTLY decrease our damage as they block the hits with their arms and tail respectively.

Point being said, you shouldn't be judging other classes without knowing what they've gone through/the actual facts/information about them, nor should you be throwing out baseless claims about them.

And no, BMs are not fine. We've been on the low end of the DPM tier for ages, and all we receive are nerfs. Why aren't we complaining about them? Ask any veteran BM around. We've practically accepted that Nexon hates us Bowmasters. That's how bad it's become. I still love this class, and that's why I continue to play it. However, most people who've played this class long enough know that it's literally gotten the short end of the stick every single time.

Uzume

MrsCute said:

You clearly haven't been playing long enough to see the kind of changes us Bowmasters go through.

I think he was talking about Battle Mages. Acronyms can be confusing, but the person he was replying to never mentioned Bowmasters so I can only assume he meant Battle Mage.

MrsCute

Uzume said:

MrsCute said:

You clearly haven't been playing long enough to see the kind of changes us Bowmasters go through.

I think he was talking about Battle Mages. Acronyms can be confusing, but the person he was replying to never mentioned Bowmasters so I can only assume he meant Battle Mage.

AFAIK, Battle Mages were always abbreviated as BaM, and not BM, since Bowmasters have always been abbreviated as BM way before Battle Mages were released.

That's besides the point though. If he was referring to Battle Mage, oh well. Either way, case and point.
I still find it pretty ridiculous that people who play top tier classes complain about it.

Arwen

Chaoscauser said:

Well BAM get union aura back at least in V but yeah it's sad that they keep nerfing everything to the ground.

I want Union Aura back.
I want the old Dark Shock
and I want the Twister back , they can remove the Battle Burst, none used it.

Arwen

Jorjax said:

Arwen said:

I laid rest my Lumi because it's slow and now they nerf the teleport...one of Luminous speciality
I laid rest my Evan after the nerf
I laid rest my Bishop , because it's useful for HS only
I laid rest my Kaiser because of nerf
I laid rest Kanna, because it's usefull for Kishin only
I still only play my Battle Mage... It was once has a very good skill (Union Aura) , but they nerfed alot...3 times they have nerfed BAM. They take away the twister, they change some skill and add a new useless skil. If they nerfed it again..then i will rest for good..and will hybernate until Nexon learn from their mistake and they accept that every class has some special skills that others don't have. And i see how they hate Magician class alot .
Let's see...

Lumi = Exceptional amazing Bosser/Farmer
Bishop = Exceptional amazing farmer with low cooldown AoE + Bossing (Future Lucid)
Kaiser = Ranked 2nd in KMS DPS Chart.
Kanna = The only class that can use both 4x Fafnir set + X amount of SW set due to Haku's weapon slot...? Who's as close as Zero double potential weapons/stats? Wow?
BM = It's fine as it is... >_>

Now, let compared all your classes that you play with mine....

-Hero-
1) Nerf Multiple-times until their Raging blow isn't as good as it used to be (required 1.2x amount of funding to hit cap again).
2) Mid-Long cooldown AoE skills (Shout and Hyper typically) + Slow animation.
3) Crappy attack animation (regarding of both 1h and 2h attack speed).
4) Only has 1 main attack through all job advancements.
5) Sitting at the bottom of KMS DPS Chart.
6) Useless 5th job skill (Summon soul? Why not give us a shadow-partner like instead?).
7) Half-slow animation for Dash (Even with 0 Attack Speed Break cap).
8) Useless combo skill orbs? Compared to Paladin and Dark Knight who can hit 100% potential of their damage?
9) Panic + Puncture required to kill cap unless you have ton of $$$/Times to replace this. (Regarding of hitting cap without it).

I can go on if you like. I don't see what's wrong with the current Lumi and other classes except for Hero (The only explorer class that haven't receive much buff other than their main attack?).

If BM is Battle Mage, i guess you haven't played it for along time. If you have played it always, you should know how they have removed unique skill (Twister) and change the Dark shock to activated when u do a teleport, They removed the teleport master instead. And they remove Twister, Union Aura etc. They added more cool down to Sweeping Staff. And they added more more cooldown to all. They try to slow down BAM (Battle Mage).
For example the dark shock, it has like 1000% dmg before and we had a hyper skill to make the cool down of this attack to 0 (no cool down). This really help when I did bossing. Using Dark Shock and Finishing Blow. And i really hate how Nexon nerfed us alot.

Then Lumi...They shortened the Teleport, one of Luminous Unique skill. And Luminous is very slow..their attack has delay attack. People now use it for binding only, for them who has not really godly equip.

I write this, not because I want a skill that can kill the boss like 1 hit only. But I hate to see how they remove and nerf the unique skill from every class. If they wanted all class should be the same, why didn't just make 1 class only?

SwordofShields

Jorjax said:

-Hero-
1) Nerf Multiple-times until their Raging blow isn't as good as it used to be (required 1.2x amount of funding to hit cap again).
2) Mid-Long cooldown AoE skills (Shout and Hyper typically) + Slow animation.
3) Crappy attack animation (regarding of both 1h and 2h attack speed).
4) Only has 1 main attack through all job advancements.
5) Sitting at the bottom of KMS DPS Chart.
6) Useless 5th job skill (Summon soul? Why not give us a shadow-partner like instead?).
7) Half-slow animation for Dash (Even with 0 Attack Speed Break cap).
8) Useless combo skill orbs? Compared to Paladin and Dark Knight who can hit 100% potential of their damage?
9) Panic + Puncture required to kill cap unless you have ton of $$$/Times to replace this. (Regarding of hitting cap without it).

I can go on if you like. I don't see what's wrong with the current Lumi and other classes except for Hero (The only explorer class that haven't receive much buff other than their main attack?).

Paladin main here, you know absolutely nothing about low DPS, or the bottom of the DPS chart. The only reason I stick with it is because I like the playstyle. That extra line Hero got for Raging Blow and crit damage actually doing something overall increased their DPS. I know full well I will never hmag, hellux, hard hilla, or CRA without spending thousands as a Pally, but I gave up getting stronger a long time ago so it's alright. You at least have a future funding a Hero.

TimeKarma

Current Battle Mage is the best Battle Mage in my opinion. They made Battle Mage more unique (Making them use of telecasting to the max), their DPM now is pretty insane if you play them properly. Battle Burst? I use it all the time when I'm training, it's so fun to use. The silly Finishing Blow + Sweeping Staff Battle Mage was the most boring for me because they required very little effort to do a lot of damage while having Union Aura and pretty much having max Attack Speed. I wouldn't say Battle Mage was nerfed at all, their teleport is the best in game (able to teleport in any direction). The return of Union Aura with cool down in the V Update will make them really strong for a decent duration but the enhancement cores will make them even stronger than Finishing Blow + Sweeping Staff Battle Mage.
Like I said before many people did prefer the LUL EZPZ BaM but I disliked it a lot because Battle Mages aren't supposed to be like that.
Also who doesn't like the current partner we have for Battle Mages? The little reaper is cute as hell.

Sure the class is hard to play with high latency but they are far from being the lowest in DPM.

TLDR; Battle Mage are still amazing, in fact better than any version of Battle Mages and will get a lot stronger in V Update.

DepressedAran

SwordofShields said:

Paladin main here, you know absolutely nothing about low DPS, or the bottom of the DPS chart. The only reason I stick with it is because I like the playstyle. That extra line Hero got for Raging Blow and crit damage actually doing something overall increased their DPS. I know full well I will never hmag, hellux, hard hilla, or CRA without spending thousands as a Pally, but I gave up getting stronger a long time ago so it's alright. You at least have a future funding a Hero.

How does it feel that Paladin is almost always at the lowest in every DPM chart that exists? They are usually last, 1 rank behind a support class like Bishop. Feelsbadman

July

Aggraphine said:

The only thing wrong with Luminous is that you can no longer sit in one static location and mindlessly spam reflection for free levels. Sucks to be all those people who weighted their reflection key down to climb the rankings but weren't 250 yet.

you can still do that with correct lumi... and its not op at all.. anway most lvl 220+ macro so doesn't matter which skills u have for mobbing.

new lumi (kms lumi) better.. better dps. yea the teleport change sucks but that how it was in kms from the first day they added luminous..
ofc i do prefer to have KMS lumi in GMS with keeping the GMS lumi teleport.. =/
need to get used to the lame teleport.

Arwen

TimeKarma said:

Current Battle Mage is the best Battle Mage in my opinion. They made Battle Mage more unique (Making them use of telecasting to the max), their DPM now is pretty insane if you play them properly. Battle Burst? I use it all the time when I'm training, it's so fun to use. The silly Finishing Blow + Sweeping Staff Battle Mage was the most boring for me because they required very little effort to do a lot of damage while having Union Aura and pretty much having max Attack Speed. I wouldn't say Battle Mage was nerfed at all, their teleport is the best in game (able to teleport in any direction). The return of Union Aura with cool down in the V Update will make them really strong for a decent duration but the enhancement cores will make them even stronger than Finishing Blow + Sweeping Staff Battle Mage.
Like I said before many people did prefer the LUL EZPZ BaM but I disliked it a lot because Battle Mages aren't supposed to be like that.
Also who doesn't like the current partner we have for Battle Mages? The little reaper is cute as hell.

Sure the class is hard to play with high latency but they are far from being the lowest in DPM.

TLDR; Battle Mage are still amazing, in fact better than any version of Battle Mages and will get a lot stronger in V Update.

Nah I don't think so. I like Battle Mage before the last nerf. The one with Union Aura and Dark Shock separated from teleport. Because Battle Burst and Teleport + Dark Shock are the same skill actually. The problem with Sweeping staff is because Nexon add more CD. They keep making the BAM slower and slower.
The Unique thing of BAM had been ripped off along time ago by Nexon when They removed Twister, changing Dark Shock and keep adding the CD and delayed attack to BAM. OFC . and they nerf the dmg of Dark genesis.

DepressedAran

Silversworn said:

Heh, if Hayato is trash, then so are like, half the classes in this game.

Though I guess for some people the only viable class is one that's #1 on the charts, hits cap without any funding and can kill Hard Magnus with 100k range while wearing a blindfold. Because obviously a class like that is what they want :V

No need to exaggerate.

Hayato is truly bad, a lot of his skills are bugged especially Shimada Heart unless that's been fixed from the last time i played my Hayato mule. Hayato is a good mobber though, but they're bad at bossing. I've heard on reddit that there is a 2mil-2mil Hayato in reboot, but he can't solo Hard Magnus. Also Hayato is one of the few high skill ceiling classes because of combo linking, which doesn't really have a lot of reward due to low % damage in his kit.

Since he is a region exclusive class, when there is a huge balance change from a previous KMS patch, GMS Hayato's won't get changed unless GMS follows what JMS will do. How long did it take for Hayato and other JMS classes to get their level 100 emblem kek. Do you honestly believe Kanna, Hayato, Beast will get 5th job at the same time as everyone else in GMS?

Ask any Hayato main, and even they will admit that there is a damage disparity between Hayato and above average classes once they're funded. Fun class, good mobber, good mobility. That's about it.

Aggraphine

July said:

Aggraphine said:

The only thing wrong with Luminous is that you can no longer sit in one static location and mindlessly spam reflection for free levels. Sucks to be all those people who weighted their reflection key down to climb the rankings but weren't 250 yet.

you can still do that with correct lumi... and its not op at all.. anway most lvl 220+ macro so doesn't matter which skills u have for mobbing.

new lumi (kms lumi) better.. better dps. yea the teleport change sucks but that how it was in kms from the first day they added luminous..
ofc i do prefer to have KMS lumi in GMS with keeping the GMS lumi teleport.. =/
need to get used to the lame teleport.

New Lumi has so much more bossing potential(as long as you don't get sealed with no allcures *right* as you enter Equilibrium...), I can't imagine anyone still being salty about this in a week or two.

July

Aggraphine said:

July said:

Aggraphine said:

The only thing wrong with Luminous is that you can no longer sit in one static location and mindlessly spam reflection for free levels. Sucks to be all those people who weighted their reflection key down to climb the rankings but weren't 250 yet.

you can still do that with correct lumi... and its not op at all.. anway most lvl 220+ macro so doesn't matter which skills u have for mobbing.

new lumi (kms lumi) better.. better dps. yea the teleport change sucks but that how it was in kms from the first day they added luminous..
ofc i do prefer to have KMS lumi in GMS with keeping the GMS lumi teleport.. =/
need to get used to the lame teleport.

New Lumi has so much more bossing potential(as long as you don't get sealed with no allcures *right* as you enter Equilibrium...), I can't imagine anyone still being salty about this in a week or two.

true

and its also not that hard to get 100% status resistance clean on luminous, since they have around 45%!
25% from cygnus links, 20% from trait and 10% from hyper stats = no need all cure potions.

TimeKarma

Arwen said:

TimeKarma said:

Current Battle Mage is the best Battle Mage in my opinion. They made Battle Mage more unique (Making them use of telecasting to the max), their DPM now is pretty insane if you play them properly. Battle Burst? I use it all the time when I'm training, it's so fun to use. The silly Finishing Blow + Sweeping Staff Battle Mage was the most boring for me because they required very little effort to do a lot of damage while having Union Aura and pretty much having max Attack Speed. I wouldn't say Battle Mage was nerfed at all, their teleport is the best in game (able to teleport in any direction). The return of Union Aura with cool down in the V Update will make them really strong for a decent duration but the enhancement cores will make them even stronger than Finishing Blow + Sweeping Staff Battle Mage.
Like I said before many people did prefer the LUL EZPZ BaM but I disliked it a lot because Battle Mages aren't supposed to be like that.
Also who doesn't like the current partner we have for Battle Mages? The little reaper is cute as hell.

Sure the class is hard to play with high latency but they are far from being the lowest in DPM.

TLDR; Battle Mage are still amazing, in fact better than any version of Battle Mages and will get a lot stronger in V Update.

Nah I don't think so. I like Battle Mage before the last nerf. The one with Union Aura and Dark Shock separated from teleport. Because Battle Burst and Teleport + Dark Shock are the same skill actually. The problem with Sweeping staff is because Nexon add more CD. They keep making the BAM slower and slower.
The Unique thing of BAM had been ripped off along time ago by Nexon when They removed Twister, changing Dark Shock and keep adding the CD and delayed attack to BAM. OFC . and they nerf the dmg of Dark genesis.

They needed to add CD to our Sweeping Staff, you very well know how overpowered it was to spam Finishing Blow + Sweeping Staff. Battle Mage was always to be an upfront mage fighter (hence the name Battle Mage), Finishing Blow + Sweeping Staff doesn't fit that upfront mage fighter that Nexon originally plan for the class.
While we're talking about nerfs let's talk about the buffs when the revamp happened. Combat Teleport is easily one of the best teleport in game because of how it works. Dark Genesis DID NOT GET NERFED, it went from 1075%x2 to 520%x8 that's almost doubling in damage. You're now able to teleport while in animation for Finishing Blow while you couldn't before. Our Bossing now is better due to our mobility and how well our skills work together as a whole. The reaper turn into something way more useful for everything and you get it from 1st job and it only keeps improving as you level further. Also one more thing that's been buffed, that would be our Aura range with party members. I'm a sucker for team play and that helps with team play a lot. They have few active buffs now and a lot of toggle skills which is great since you can just cast Staff Boost + Maple Warrior and not much time lost to buff (or just Staff Boost because Maple Warrior lasts 15 minutes). The whole revamp just improve Battle Mage class as a whole and I can't stress that enough.
Do you think previous Battle Mage with many skill delays will be able to compete with our current Battle Mage? I don't think so and allow me to show you a Battle Mage's Chaos Vellum Solo from Korea's V Update.


This is near or at peak performance, previous Battle Mage version can't match the damage of the current Battle Mage. Sure this may not be looking all too fancy for other classes but this is very impressive for Battle Mage.

They're a mage that fights upfront with little delays in skills.
But hey if you don't enjoy the class, simply don't play it.

Temptation

Changes to Mercedes in this patch: none.
This class still feels like paper, plus takes a lot more investment to increase dmg output. Still like it, since I have to use several skills. We actually need no cooldown on the attack skills so we can chain them better and with more combos.

SwordofShields

DepressedAran said:

How does it feel that Paladin is almost always at the lowest in every DPM chart that exists? They are usually last, 1 rank behind a support class like Bishop. Feelsbadman

Like I said, it really doesn't phase me. It's not like Paladin itself isn't a support class, just look at it's party buffs on top of its bind skill. It's 5th job skill is probably the best party buff in the game even though it only affects one party member. It's just a shame that good party buffs are pretty much useless these days, you can just feed money into your character and solo everything. As for that chart, it assumes a scenario where the thing you are fighting is standing perfectly still, so for the most part it's not reliable. I don't doubt Paladins are near the bottom for practial dpm too, but they wouldn't be dead last in practical dpm for sure.

SkyTheDestroyer

MrsCute said:

9) RED happened, I consider this a moderate buff (but not as big compared to all the other explorer classes)
It was quite big, actually.

10) Nerfed hurricane damage (again)
Never happened. Are you talking about the switch of Arrow Blaster and Hurricane? Are you ignoring the Split Hyper?

11) Final Damage *Attack? no longer proc'd on arrow blaster (effectively a 20~33% damage nerf depending on how you look at it)
It never actually activated on Arrow Blaster. AFA was broken for several skills before, which included the installed Arrow Blaster while you were using it together with Hurricane. They removed the AFA activation from it after they fixed AFA because the properly working AFA with Arrow Blaster was too strong. It changed absolutely nothing as it was broken in the first place.

12) Arrow blaster got a damage nerf
No, it did not. It was the opposite...it was significantly buffed in several patches, going from 125% to 205% with the Reinforce Hyper, unless if you conveniently ignore the Binding Shot passive that gives +90% damage to Arrow Blaster and the +30% Reinforce Hyper which applies to both Hurricane AND Arrow Blaster.

13) Arrow blaster duration reduced by approximately 40% duration
It's still 30 seconds as it's always been...where are you getting these random ideas?

14) Arrow blaster now gets an attack speed decrease in exchange for a measely 10% hurricane damage buff that makes 0 difference when you hit cap
No, that's not how it works. The Split Hyper changes it from splitting the base 330% Hurricane into a 65% split to 75%, which is equal from having a base Hurricane damage of 214.5% times 2 lines being buffed to 247.5% times 2 lines. A 66% damage buff to Hurricane. It was an overall DPS buff, even if you include the Arrow Blaster attack speed nerf. And the cap is going away in 5th job either way.

15) One of the few classes to not get a damage cap increase
We didn't need it. We're still extremely powerful with a cap. Regardless, the cap is going away for everyone in 5th job.

For the most part though, BMs is significantly lower than that because our DPS skill is a single-target only, whileas most other classes utilize a skill that can hit many lines AND a decent amount of mobs as well; in other words, bosses like Chaos Zakum and Chaos Vellum SIGNIFICANTLY decrease our damage as they block the hits with their arms and tail respectively.
We actually highly benefit from Chaos Zakum and Chaos Vellum post-5th job. Arrow Rain throws down a rain of arrows for each target within your range...which is absolutely op for Chaos Zakum, and very good for Chaos Vellum, among other bosses. It's a beautiful, perfect counter to Hurricane only being able to hit one target.

And DPS/DPM charts mean nothing when you're considering anything outside of Dojo. You should never, ever look at DPS/DPM charts for anything outside of "how well would this class do if we ignore all the buffs it has, ignore how well the class scales with equips, put it into a perfect scenario, and consider that for all combo classes that the monster is doing absolutely nothing and that you're comboing everything absolutely perfectly without a single millisecond of error?"

And in Evan's case, DPS/DPM charts consider that the Pentacle skill is hitting on all points, which is literally impossible in-game, as we don't have a boss that large, except for perhaps Ursus.

Point being said, you shouldn't be judging other classes without knowing what they've gone through/the actual facts/information about them, nor should you be throwing out baseless claims about them.
You should stop throwing baseless claims yourself.

And no, BMs are not fine. We've been on the low end of the DPM tier for ages, and all we receive are nerfs. Why aren't we complaining about them?
Because Bowmaster has been repeatedly buffed and buffed. It has never been nerfed even close to once since RED.

Replies in bold.

MrsCute

>Never happened. Are you talking about the switch of Arrow Blaster and Hurricane? Are you ignoring the Split Hyper?
Hurricane damage was significantly nerfed when it was moved from a 4th job skill to a 3rd job skill sometime after RED happened. They reverted it back to 300% (now 330%) sometime afterwards as they moved it back to 4th job.

>It never actually activated on Arrow Blaster. AFA was broken for several skills before, which included the installed Arrow Blaster while you were using it together with Hurricane. They removed the AFA activation from it after they fixed AFA because the properly working AFA with Arrow Blaster was too strong. It changed absolutely nothing as it was broken in the first place.
It's probably as you said. That probably wasn't something that was intended to happen in the first place. Even so, it didn't change the fact that we lost a huge percentage of our damage output because of this change.

>No, it did not. It was the opposite...it was significantly buffed in several patches, going from 125% to 205% with the Reinforce Hyper, unless if you conveniently ignore the Binding Shot passive that gives +90% damage to Arrow Blaster and the +30% Reinforce Hyper which applies to both Hurricane AND Arrow Blaster.
125% to 205%? I hope you realize I'm talking about the installed blaster, as no sane bowmaster today will boss using blaster instead of hurricane.
"Arrow Blaster: At Master Level: Can no longer be installed mid-air. 5 second cooldown added to install. Install damage decreased from 140% to 85%."
http://maplestory.nexon.net/news/8234/v-172-maple-s-eleven-patch-notes
Okay, yeah. You're right. I did overlook the following change:
"Binding Shot: At Master Level: Arrow Blaster damage permanently increased by +90%". which was probably intended to balance out the damage nerf to installed blaster. In other words, it got a slight damage change.. until you consider the fact that it was no longer something you could install in the air. Suddenly my cvel runs took almost double the original time. Not to mention, this change occured ALONG WITH the nerf to the arrow blaster, so the 90% increase was practically overlooked.

>No, that's not how it works. The Split Hyper changes it from splitting the base 330% Hurricane into a 65% split to 75%, which is equal from having a base Hurricane damage of 214.5% times 2 lines being buffed to 247.5% times 2 lines. A 66% damage buff to Hurricane. It was an overall DPS buff, even if you include the Arrow Blaster attack speed nerf. And the cap is going away in 5th job either way.
Except I'm talking in current times. Okay it may be a buff in the long run, sometime next year when I expect 5th job to come out, and then some. As of now however, people who hit cap got a arrow blaster attack speed nerf and it's definitely noticeable. That 10% somewhat helps with the damage output, but it still doesn't change the fact that you need some ridiculous amount of range to even hit cap with a bowmaster.

>We actually highly benefit from Chaos Zakum and Chaos Vellum post-5th job. Arrow Rain throws down a rain of arrows for each target within your range...which is absolutely op for Chaos Zakum, and very good for Chaos Vellum, among other bosses. It's a beautiful, perfect counter to Hurricane only being able to hit one target.
Again, this is 5th job. I can't say anything about this aspect, as I haven't seen nor experienced the 5th job advancement yet. Sure, it definitely will help with bosses like Zakum and Vellum, but how exactly does that compare with other 5th job skills in comparison? You still can't deny that it's significantly harder to kill czak or cvel because of the fact that our skills can be blocked/we can no longer install our arrow blaster in the air against the tails respectively.

>And DPS/DPM charts mean nothing when you're considering anything outside of Dojo. You should never, ever look at DPS/DPM charts for anything outside of "how well would this class do if we ignore all the buffs it has, ignore how well the class scales with equips, put it into a perfect scenario, and consider that for all combo classes that the monster is doing absolutely nothing and that you're comboing everything absolutely perfectly without a single millisecond of error?"

I'm glad you ignored my second half of that post. Please reread the post as I did mention that we should be taking the DPM chart with a grain of salt. Nevertheless, it's more or less a form of tier list. Tier lists are never perfect, but they can give you a general idea of what could happen under a perfect condition. That being said, it doesn't change the fact that bowmasters pale in comparison to the top 10 classes when it comes to DPS. That's what it means to be a tier list.

And just in case you miss it again, let me reiterate for the third time that the DPM chart should be taken with a grain of salt.

>You should stop throwing baseless claims yourself.
They may be overexaggerated, but they're not baseless. As for you, it seems as if you're basing your arguments off of flat out numbers, and not off of experience of playing the class to its full extent post-change.


You definitely do have a point in saying that it will be a huge boost for Bowmasters when the damage cap is removed and 5th job occurs. However, we haven't received that patch, nor have we actually played with it enough to actually know how much of a boost it is for bowmasters. Unless you've also played in KMS, what you're basing your claims off of is speculation. As of now though, compared to what the other classes are receiving, bowmasters aren't receiving any big changes at all. We're also one of the few to not receive a damage cap increase in this current patch. Stuff like that really makes me sad.

SkyTheDestroyer

MrsCute said:

Hurricane damage was significantly nerfed when it was moved from a 4th job skill to a 3rd job skill sometime after RED happened. They reverted it back to 300% (now 330%) sometime afterwards as they moved it back to 4th job.
It was never, never nerfed. Arrow Blaster's passive made Hurricane buffed to 276% damage, while before RED the most Hurricane was at was 260%.

It's probably as you said. That probably wasn't something that was intended to happen in the first place. Even so, it didn't change the fact that we lost a huge percentage of our damage output because of this change.
A percent of the damage output that never happened in-game?

125% to 205%? I hope you realize I'm talking about the installed blaster, as no sane bowmaster today will boss using blaster instead of hurricane.
"Arrow Blaster: At Master Level: Can no longer be installed mid-air. 5 second cooldown added to install. Install damage decreased from 140% to 85%."
http://maplestory.nexon.net/news/8234/v-172-maple-s-eleven-patch-notes
Okay, yeah. You're right. I did overlook the following change:
"Binding Shot: At Master Level: Arrow Blaster damage permanently increased by +90%". which was probably intended to balance out the damage nerf to installed blaster. In other words, it got a slight damage change.. until you consider the fact that it was no longer something you could install in the air. Suddenly my cvel runs took almost double the original time. Not to mention, this change occured ALONG WITH the nerf to the arrow blaster, so the 90% increase was practically overlooked.
I doubt your Chaos Vellum runs suddenly took twice as long to do because of this change. Mine certainly didn't. They actually were shorter due to the other buffs they gave us in the same patch, as well as Arrow Blaster being buffed from a base 145% to a base 175% in that patch alone. What sort of nerf was that? Are you saying that Arrow Blaster being at 140%(base)+25%(Reinforce)=165% is greater than Arrow Blaster being at 85%(base)+90%(Binding Shot passive)+30%(Reinforce)=205%?? They compensated the removal of in-air Arrow Blaster by adding an instant up angle feature to Arrow Blaster, which makes up for the angling on Chaos Vellum easily.

Except I'm talking in current times. Okay it may be a buff in the long run, sometime next year when I expect 5th job to come out, and then some. As of now however, people who hit cap got a arrow blaster attack speed nerf and it's definitely noticeable. That 10% somewhat helps with the damage output, but it still doesn't change the fact that you need some ridiculous amount of range to even hit cap with a bowmaster.
The buff in the long run is what matters, which is not even a long run... We're likely to get 5th job at the end of November. The Coin Exchange event runs from November 16 to November 29, a two week long event. What was the final patch that KMS received right before 5th job? A two week long event patch. And we've received every patch up to that point. It being that early isn't a surprise either; we got Reboot last year on the 1st of December.

And again, it's not just a 10% buff to Hurricane, it was overall a 66% buff to it. And for those that 100% cap right now, yes, you'll have to suffer a slight loss of 2 hits per second for a whole, terribly long month. Then once 5th job hits, you can start benefiting from the cap being lifted, even if you don't cap normally, thanks to Armor Break giving proportion final damage boosts in relation with PDR (e.g. +300% final damage boost on Chaos Vellum: if you're hitting even just 20m with Hurricane on Chaos Vellum, Armor Break is only bursting your damage up to the 50m cap when it would be 80m without a cap). None of the DPS charts ever put this into play, which is why they're a load of bull. Yes, I realize you're saying you should take them with a grain of salt, but you shouldn't even look at them for absolutely any realistic bossing scenario.

Again, this is 5th job. I can't say anything about this aspect, as I haven't seen nor experienced the 5th job advancement yet. Sure, it definitely will help with bosses like Zakum and Vellum, but how exactly does that compare with other 5th job skills in comparison? You still can't deny that it's significantly harder to kill czak or cvel because of the fact that our skills can be blocked/we can no longer install our arrow blaster in the air against the tails respectively.
You just stand on Chaos Zakum to attack him, the arms don't block Hurricane at all. It's also not bad at Chaos Vellum, believe me. In comparison to other 5th job skills such as Aran and Evan, we definitely shine. We're also much more flexible than those classes that have just some 5 second ultimate and a 2 minute cooldown.

They may be overexaggerated, but they're not baseless. As for you, it seems as if you're basing your arguments off of flat out numbers, and not off of experience of playing the class to its full extent post-change.
They are baseless when you ignore buffs and make them up as nerfs as well as suddenly making up nerfs such as to Arrow Blaster's duration, Hurricane's damage, and other things that never existed. I'm very experienced with Bowmaster...I've played it forever. The last buff was more than just a buff to our numbers; realize that it was a buff to our playstyle as well. It shifts Arrow Blaster's damage to Hurricane. I'm not all about numbers, but you keep denying the number increases so that's why I'm rebutting you.

You definitely do have a point in saying that it will be a huge boost for Bowmasters when the damage cap is removed and 5th job occurs. However, we haven't received that patch, nor have we actually played with it enough to actually know how much of a boost it is for bowmasters. Unless you've also played in KMS, what you're basing your claims off of is speculation. As of now though, compared to what the other classes are receiving, bowmasters aren't receiving any big changes at all. We're also one of the few to not receive a damage cap increase in this current patch. Stuff like that really makes me sad.
I've seen lots of videos on 5th job Bowmaster. It's pretty amazing. A guy killed Chaos Vellum post-5th on a Bowmaster hitting 7m per line of Hurricane:
0:26 for an example of Arrow Rain spawning on each target within range, essentially more than doubling Arrow Rain's effectiveness for each extra target. This applies to Lotus Phase 1, any boss that's been split by a Shade, Damien phase 2 due to the Damage Reduction Orb being targeted by Arrow Rain since it's considered a mob, again Chaos Vellum and Chaos Zakum, Chaos Horntail, potentially Gollux depending on how it works, etc. If Arrow Rain doubles our damage output (like most 5th job skills do), then we'll be doubled for each of the Arrow Rains that are spawned.

Another example of that at Chaos Zakum: See how opaque Arrow Rain is? It's cause her Arrow Rain is spawning for each of the arms, so it's 9 Arrow Rains stacked on top of each other, all of them activating Mortal Blow, Armor Break, and Magic Arrows. Look at it being destroyed.

And here's one of my favorite 5th job videos:

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