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Please get rid of Kishin already

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  • InvulgoInvulgo
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    edited January 2019
    Harmless wrote: »
    It is the cancer that is killing this game.

    What about the Frenzy Totem then?
  • HuskyDMHuskyDM
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    edited January 2019
    Aggraphine wrote: »
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Aggraphine wrote: »
    I'm not disagreeing with you, but good luck finding eboss drops in the auction house that didn't come from a bot.

    True, but if they have no way to convert mesos back into cash after that, it's all the same.
    The idea is to cut them off from their end goal, actual currency.
    So long as the game is profitable, they won't stop.

    Of course "gold sellers" aren't the only ones hacking, but they're probably the majority.

    That's definitely true. All the "anti-bot" measures in the world won't do a damn thing about it so long as it's profitable to them.

    Wouldn't it make sense to make the game less meso dependent then? If people are able to get everything they want simply by playing then less people will be buying mesos which means less hackers as its becoming less and less profitable for them. Kind of unfortunate for us as its the Korean devs who decide the direction the game takes.
    darik
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited January 2019
    HuskyDM wrote: »
    Wouldn't it make sense to make the game less meso dependent then? If people are able to get everything they want simply by playing then less people will be buying mesos which means less hackers as its becoming less and less profitable for them. Kind of unfortunate for us as its the Korean devs who decide the direction the game takes.

    You have the same problem here. If you remove the dependence on mesos you have to replace it with something else.
    You could go the route of Arcane Symbols or Genesis Weapons, but there are problems being expressed with these types of items too.
    Mainly in that the game requires a huge time sink for these so multiple characters becomes extremely taxing.
    So long as there's the ability to trade, there will be the ability to sell items related to powering up your character.
    Unless they make each item related to powering up account or character bound (aka: Reboot) then these types of hackers will exist.
    Gold sellers plague every MMO to some degree, some are just more dependent on such currencies or items that makes it more worth while.

    It's not exactly an easy thing to combat as it requires core changes to the way a game works. (Again, see Reboot)
    From what I know about KMS, they don't have nearly as many problems as we do. So in their eyes, it could be our fault for letting it get this bad.
    It's an extremely complex issue that has no clear cut solution that I can see.
    HuskyDM
  • HarmlessHarmless
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    edited January 2019
    Invulgo wrote: »
    Harmless wrote: »
    It is the cancer that is killing this game.

    What about the Frenzy Totem then?

    It should go as well, but seriously doubt that will happen, as nexon will lose money. A slighty nerfed version is the best we can hope imo.
    SlicedTime
  • SuperJonicSuperJonic
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    edited January 2019
    To be fair, I don't see kishin as a problem. So why remove a skill to butcher the class even further?
  • AggraphineAggraphine
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    edited January 2019
    Harmless wrote: »
    Invulgo wrote: »
    Harmless wrote: »
    It is the cancer that is killing this game.

    What about the Frenzy Totem then?

    It should go as well, but seriously doubt that will happen, as nexon will lose money. A slighty nerfed version is the best we can hope imo.

    So what, spawn-rate increase should be a privilege reserved only for those with ass-loads of disposable income? Are frenzy totems not just as big of a cancer? Since those are more frequently RMT'd than kishin mules. Is that not also a cancer upon the game?
    FuhreakSunsetChaos
  • SunsetChaosSunsetChaos
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    edited January 2019
    Invulgo wrote: »
    Harmless wrote: »
    It is the cancer that is killing this game.

    What about the Frenzy Totem then?
    That's the P2W cancer.
    SlicedTime
  • HarmlessHarmless
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    edited January 2019
    Aggraphine wrote: »
    Harmless wrote: »
    Invulgo wrote: »
    Harmless wrote: »
    It is the cancer that is killing this game.

    What about the Frenzy Totem then?

    It should go as well, but seriously doubt that will happen, as nexon will lose money. A slighty nerfed version is the best we can hope imo.

    So what, spawn-rate increase should be a privilege reserved only for those with ass-loads of disposable income? Are frenzy totems not just as big of a cancer? Since those are more frequently RMT'd than kishin mules. Is that not also a cancer upon the game?

    I... said it should go as well? Only that, as opposed to Kishin, I don't think Nexon has the balls / ovaries to do it because money is their bottom line. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like it to disappear.
    SlicedTimeFuhreak
  • HuskyDMHuskyDM
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    edited January 2019
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    HuskyDM wrote: »
    Wouldn't it make sense to make the game less meso dependent then? If people are able to get everything they want simply by playing then less people will be buying mesos which means less hackers as its becoming less and less profitable for them. Kind of unfortunate for us as its the Korean devs who decide the direction the game takes.

    You have the same problem here. If you remove the dependence on mesos you have to replace it with something else.
    You could go the route of Arcane Symbols or Genesis Weapons, but there are problems being expressed with these types of items too.
    Mainly in that the game requires a huge time sink for these so multiple characters becomes extremely taxing.
    So long as there's the ability to trade, there will be the ability to sell items related to powering up your character.
    Unless they make each item related to powering up account or character bound (aka: Reboot) then these types of hackers will exist.
    Gold sellers plague every MMO to some degree, some are just more dependent on such currencies or items that makes it more worth while.

    It's not exactly an easy thing to combat as it requires core changes to the way a game works. (Again, see Reboot)
    From what I know about KMS, they don't have nearly as many problems as we do. So in their eyes, it could be our fault for letting it get this bad.
    It's an extremely complex issue that has no clear cut solution that I can see.

    I believe it is GMS fault for letting it become this bad. KMS and GMS are both the same game to a degree. If KMS doesn't have any significant issues (and looking at their server traffic I believe they don't) then its GMS fault, either they are doing something wrong or not doing something at all, but then again different regions have different issues and what works on KMS might not be working here. And while gold sellers are something any MMO has I don't think I've ever played or seen one that has it so bad as GMS does.
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    It's an extremely complex issue that has no clear cut solution that I can see.

    Nope, and we, the legit players, are the only ones who suffer.
    Fuhreak
  • microwavemicrowave
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    edited January 2019
    Invulgo wrote: »
    Harmless wrote: »
    It is the cancer that is killing this game.

    What about the Frenzy Totem then?

    another cancer more in the game and the worst of all ... when the frenzy totem appeared the game hurt more
  • microwavemicrowave
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    edited January 2019
    No more Kishin?
    Solution: Globally increase spawnrate and amount of mobs in every map.

    But this will increase lag?
    Solution: Despawn mobs in ALL empty maps. Like how when you enter a new map and there's no mobs because no one visited it yet. You have to wait a few seconds for them to spawn. Now change it so that it does this when players leave the map.

    good idea but while the hackers are still in the game, this solution will not solve anything
  • AggraphineAggraphine
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    edited January 2019
    microwave wrote: »
    No more Kishin?
    Solution: Globally increase spawnrate and amount of mobs in every map.

    But this will increase lag?
    Solution: Despawn mobs in ALL empty maps. Like how when you enter a new map and there's no mobs because no one visited it yet. You have to wait a few seconds for them to spawn. Now change it so that it does this when players leave the map.

    good idea but while the hackers are still in the game, this solution will not solve anything

    The only "solutions" will, as always, negatively impact legitimate players while leaving bots wholly unscathed. There is not one single thing they've done to "combat botters" that hasn't had a much larger, and more negative, effect on actual players than bots while being utterly unnoticed by the bots.

    Runes causing gradual exp/drop penalties? Doesn't matter, bots use runes. Changing the arrows from red/green/blue/yellow to garbage you can barely see all but two of? Doesn't matter, bots either bypass it or read the required inputs from packets or something. Anti-afk mobs? Well, that wasn't really to ward off bots, rather it was to prevent people from squatting in maps to claim them, so they solve a problem that has never existed in gms.
    SunsetChaosHuskyDMSlicedTimeFuhreakWZrk
  • SunsetChaosSunsetChaos
    Reactions: 1,115
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    edited January 2019
    microwave wrote: »
    No more Kishin?
    Solution: Globally increase spawnrate and amount of mobs in every map.

    But this will increase lag?
    Solution: Despawn mobs in ALL empty maps. Like how when you enter a new map and there's no mobs because no one visited it yet. You have to wait a few seconds for them to spawn. Now change it so that it does this when players leave the map.

    good idea but while the hackers are still in the game, this solution will not solve anything
    Don't care. Never said anything to solve the bots problem in the first place. That's irrelevant to what I said.
    Bots will be bots, regardless of whether there's kishin or not.
  • darikdarik
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    edited January 2019
    Harmless wrote: »
    It is the cancer that is killing this game.

    Ure so wrong in so many ways, kishin isnt killing the game,whats damaging it is slowing down progression more and more with each patch we get.
  • L4d2jpnL4d2jpn
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    edited January 2019
    The root cause is the need for mesos and casually unreasonable droprates.

    Kishin is the unfortunate target because it is something that speeds up the above process for both legit and illegit players. This increases the server load as the skill becomes spammed by people who need to hack to get to Arcane River levels so they can self boost their own account, legit players who actually want to speed up their farming, Kanna mains who just want to... Play the game, meso farmers to sell mesos for the endgame to get their gear to 22*+.

    Directly blaming kishin is not the proper take on this as having 5k Kanna bots spamming monkey and kishin is just as bad as 5k ark bots spamming noCD FMA attacks.

    The increased spawnrate and lag became directly correlated when there was more of a need for mesos along with progression slowdown.

    As others have mentioned before, every single map used to have glitched spawnrates due to kishin spam and/or wild Hunter glitches. This never caused any major issues to the degree that is present Bera.

    The server load was properly split up prior to the merge because everyone that bots was evenly split so you get slightly laggy servers all across the game. Now everyone is in Bera causing every single botting activity to come to Bera.

    Think back to when 21-30 was initially released in Bera. Until botting code was updated, these channels were the smoothest channels due to these being the intended way the game was meant to be played.

    Kishin isn't the direct problem. It's more of the fact that entry into mid-late game requires about 3 years of dedication to truly hit. Mesos are such a necessity in this game and yet the game direction forces players to lose out on mesos more and more.

    Feb 23, 2013 was Kanna's release. It magically took 5 years for Kishin to become a problem? Think about that.
    Fuhreak
  • ShokunKaYoShokunKaYo
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    edited January 2019
    Invulgo wrote: »
    Harmless wrote: »
    It is the cancer that is killing this game.

    What about the Frenzy Totem then?

    The thing about Frenzy totem is that it's not gonna get abused like kishin is being abused. They're items worth over 2 grand USD. There won't be bunch of hackers with multiple accounts meso botting with frenzy totems. Not really comparable
  • AggraphineAggraphine
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    edited January 2019
    ShokunKaYo wrote: »
    Invulgo wrote: »
    Harmless wrote: »
    It is the cancer that is killing this game.

    What about the Frenzy Totem then?

    The thing about Frenzy totem is that it's not gonna get abused like kishin is being abused. They're items worth over 2 grand USD. There won't be bunch of hackers with multiple accounts meso botting with frenzy totems. Not really comparable

    You say that as if hackers didn't use packet injection to acquire the monolith skill(given by the frenzy totem) on reboot, a server that will never see a legitimate frenzy totem. Also you really shouldn't use the fact that some people buy and sell ingame items for real money(which is frowned upon in the terms of service and likely the forum rules as well) as a deciding factor in "this isn't as bad as that".
    xparasite9
  • ShokunKaYoShokunKaYo
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    edited January 2019
    Aggraphine wrote: »
    ShokunKaYo wrote: »
    Invulgo wrote: »
    Harmless wrote: »
    It is the cancer that is killing this game.

    What about the Frenzy Totem then?

    The thing about Frenzy totem is that it's not gonna get abused like kishin is being abused. They're items worth over 2 grand USD. There won't be bunch of hackers with multiple accounts meso botting with frenzy totems. Not really comparable

    You say that as if hackers didn't use packet injection to acquire the monolith skill(given by the frenzy totem) on reboot, a server that will never see a legitimate frenzy totem. Also you really shouldn't use the fact that some people buy and sell ingame items for real money(which is frowned upon in the terms of service and likely the forum rules as well) as a deciding factor in "this isn't as bad as that".

    Did not know that acquiring monolith skill via hacking was even possible. If that's as prevalent and abusable as kishin, then yes delete frenzy totems and compensate the players with legit totems for what those items are worth.
    As for people buying/selling stuff for real $$$, I wasn't using that as deciding factor and i'm not even promoting anyone to do this, so I believe it's not breaking forum rule. By that logic, is talking about hacking also against forum rule (who knows it's all up to whims of all mighty and righteous vfms)? I'm saying that because frenzy totem is such rare item, it's not as abusable as kishin, which anyone can use by simply raising kanna. But if what you're saying about getting monolith skill easily via hacking is true (in which case I don't understand why kanna hackers even exist in the first place), then yes it's as bad as kishin and should be dealt with.
  • L4d2jpnL4d2jpn
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    edited January 2019
    ShokunKaYo wrote: »
    Did not know that acquiring monolith skill via hacking was even possible. If that's as prevalent and abusable as kishin, then yes delete frenzy totems and compensate the players with legit totems for what those items are worth.

    But if what you're saying about getting monolith skill easily via hacking is true (in which case I don't understand why kanna hackers even exist in the first place), then yes it's as bad as kishin and should be dealt with.

    Regarding first topic - it's not that the totem item itself is being hacked into the game. Without knowing exactly how it's being done, I would assume that the concept is replacing the effect of a skill with the monolith skill.

    Regarding second - It's most likely not as easy because the people who understand how to do this are the people who most likely know how the game is coded better than the official staff.

    And lastly I just want to throw it out there that true hackers still do care about the integrity of the game. It's the ones that use and abuse them who don't, most of the time these people don't know how they're even coded or even understand what's actually going on. They just know how to use it.

    In all honesty, make the game more skill based versus investment based. The less you make this game focused around how much mesos you've spent the less of a need there would be for meso botting.

    I.e. A level appropriate char can solo a normal boss while 6 man is required for hard.
  • pepepepe
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    edited January 2019
    Can the GMS team actually tell us what's going on with the Kishin situation before they hit the switch? Memos are great and all but I don't want a memo saying something like 'we've thought long and hard and have come to the decision to nerf kishin permanently and will compensate it with a small change (15% mob exp etc) we are sorry and will strive to make the game better'.

    There was a moment in the nexon Q&A where a twitch streamer (Matt) inquired about the Nebulite-Flame situation and Savage Ace said something like 'would you guys like to have flames instead of Nebs?' (to which Matt responded in the affirmative). I believe this moment actually solidified Nexon's decision to replace Nebs with Flames and it was all due to a simple exchange.

    I bring up this instance of communication not to derail the thread but to demonstrate the effective act of consulting players PRIOR to major changes. Since Kishin affects the majority of players, I propose that we the players should democratically decide the fate of Kishin.
    darikFuhreakmicrowave