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Flames not working right on non-kms items?

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  • NeospectorNeospector
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    Volunteer Forum Moderator
    edited July 2018
    "Boss equips", as stated above, isn't a proper descriptor. Horntail Necklace drops from Horntail, but doesn't get the flame bonuses. The items aren't marked, but that's an issue on its own.

    As far as balance goes, if Gollux receives 25 stars it'll still be best in slot compared to other items even with flame bonuses, and transposed Sweetwater was discussed at length by the playerbase. So, yeah, I personally have no problem believing balance was a factor in the decision-making. Non-KMS equips have super high base stats compared to KMS equips. If they didn't, they wouldn't be best-in-slot by a huge margin like they are now.

    If you're not convinced by this, there's nothing I can say that'll really change your mind. The community itself has discussed these balance issues at length (see this thread), and the official word is that it was done for balance, so if you want to be skeptical about it then go ahead, but it doesn't really help move the discussion along.
    And further, I should point out, none of that is any reason to go around accusing people of lying. You're allowed to dislike the change, you're not allowed to shovel words into people's mouths or start crusading.
  • DeathStarDeathStar
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    Member
    edited July 2018
    you can still transpose flame stats btw
  • ValhallenValhallen
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    edited July 2018
    Argent wrote: »
    @Neospector I think the player base is just frustrated now by the decisions that have been made over the past year. Being constantly told " we do hear your feedback and understand your desire" constantly but little if anything changing has fatigued everyone. I've seen less outburst over this particular change, and when I've questioned guildmates, their response is mostly "complaining doesn't matter." It is quite rare to see our complaints acted on, in fact, I was shocked to see Nexon actually allow Reboot get the Wings and Symbols from the tier 2 Relay box. But that took 3 events of people complaining about the same problem for something to be done.

    There is little recourse players have when changes are made that we believe are in error, intentional or not, but to make a complaint. Yet, it is incredibly hard to get any kind of dialogue going with Nexon. Post by any admin on these forums are quite rare and engaging in longer conversations even more so. What more is there for players to do?

    But back to the non-KMS item. I think one lingering issue is that there just isn't any clear indicator for players that these items would not receive the same kind of stats as "lesser" items. As an example, the Gollux set is obtained by beating a boss, one reasonably strong one and getting coins to purchase in the bosses coin shop. This is similar to other bosses. Yes, the items from Gollux are great, but at no point would a player think that flames would affect the items any different than something from say, Pink Bean or Arkarium.

    Since the items being affected by this flaming issue are strictly non-KMS equips, players are perceiving this as a slight against GMS. That there is some bias that since the content did not originate with the KMS team that it won't be supported the same way. Telling the players it was done to maintain balance isn't a convincing argument and just fans the fires.

    Reboot still only gets the 30 meso pouches, no wings or arcane symbols from the Tier 2 relay box in reboot, I just opened it the other day.
  • AKradianAKradian
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    Volunteer Forum Moderator, Private Tester
    edited July 2018
    Valhallen wrote: »

    Reboot still only gets the 30 meso pouches, no wings or arcane symbols from the Tier 2 relay box in reboot, I just opened it the other day.

    You will get them in a maintenance after the event ends, as the (updated) update notes say:
    Maple Relay
    [Updated July 12] Players in Reboot world will also get the Tier 2 Box reward containing Lil Dark Angel Wings and Arcane Symbol Selector Coupon (x15). These items will be given in a scheduled maintenance after the event ends. You must have received the Tier 2 Box in order to be eligible to receive the Lil Dark Angel Wings and Arcane Symbol Selector Coupon (x15).
  • IcydropIcydrop
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    edited July 2018
    Neospector wrote: »
    This thread was made to accept two choices, that it was intentional, or that it wasn't intentional. The official memo says it was intentional, so that's what we got. We can work with the results we have, but sitting around shouting "IT'S A LIE YOU'RE LYING YOU LYING LIAR" isn't helping.

    I think it would have been helpful if from the beginning there was more information on how flames intentionally worked here: http://forums.maplestory.nexon.net/discussion/20199/guide-to-bonus-stats How are us players to know that using these super-rare flames on our Gollux, Sweetwater etc would give us a lower chance of gaining useful stats as opposed to if we were to apply them on a KMS item. If we were informed before then we could have put them to better use. Throughout this topic, many players have been expressing their frustration about spending their hard earned mesos on tier 0-1 bonus stats. We didn't really know.
  • SinDitBRSinDitBR
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    edited July 2018
    Neospector wrote: »
    As far as balance goes, if Gollux receives 25 stars it'll still be best in slot compared to other items even with flame bonuses, and transposed Sweetwater was discussed at length by the playerbase. So, yeah, I personally have no problem believing balance was a factor in the decision-making. Non-KMS equips have super high base stats compared to KMS equips. If they didn't, they wouldn't be best-in-slot by a huge margin like they are now.

    I can't believe you still don't understand that not every player on maplestory will be having 25 stars gollux set; You can't balance a game thinking only on full funded guys, mostly because the damage of this people are already broke, probably been for years. And didn't mentioning anything about gollux equips made every player lost at least a few eternal flames, which costs about 900m ea in luna, at least. We demand a refund!
    DarkPassengerxparasite9
  • DeathStarDeathStar
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    edited July 2018
    who cares about balance between GMS and KMS anyway? not like this game is some kind of e-sport title where balance is important
  • IcydropIcydrop
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    edited July 2018
    I think they aren't debating about which version are better
    Argent wrote: »
    Since the items being affected by this flaming issue are strictly non-KMS equips, players are perceiving this as a slight against GMS. That there is some bias that since the content did not originate with the KMS team that it won't be supported the same way. Telling the players it was done to maintain balance isn't a convincing argument and just fans the fires.

  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited July 2018
    yeah it isn't the balance between kms and gms equipment meta, as kms doesn't have some of gms equips; it is about the potential of which the weapons gms uses can get too. in essence, so one set of weapons doesn't completely power creep the rest used by gms players, in its current meta.
  • PhantomErevePhantomEreve
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    Member, Private Tester
    edited July 2018
    Nexon seriously insulted their community. They release a new system and outlined how it would work. Then WE the players follow that information and find out that non-kms items are given TIER ZERO STATS for Eternal Flames. Eternal Flames are supposed to be TIER 4+. Why was this never written or warned of? Why couldn't they implement a flame lock on items to prevent the user from using Powerful/Eternal Flames? This is incompetence and lack of transparency. Nexon could've easily owned up to it and returned the flames used on non-kms gear.
    xparasite9
  • choozchooz
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    edited July 2018
    Neospector wrote: »
    DFDFD wrote: »
    Let's not be naive. It clearly wasn't intentional, they just decided they don't want to fix it. So yes, I'm quite sure it is indeed a lie.

    Again, don't spread FUD, read the rules.

    This thread was made to accept two choices, that it was intentional, or that it wasn't intentional. The official memo says it was intentional, so that's what we got. We can work with the results we have, but sitting around shouting "IT'S A LIE YOU'RE LYING YOU LYING LIAR" isn't helping.

    Still wrong. It affects all non-KMS equipment globally. The decision not to fix the equipment is intended. The equipment being broken is not. There's absolutely no reason for us to have nebulites all that time, and having up to 4% stat on that equipment was fine and dandy UNTIL FLAMES, where we now struggle to get even just double digit stat increases, nevermind a percentage of our own stats. the equipment gets outclassed by anything that can properly receive a flame. It's a step in an entirely backwards direction. They aren't equivalent, they're worthless. And they're all things that are often harder to get than their substitutes, too. The only thing it does is take away out best equipment, because it's, in fact, not anywhere near the best anymore. It's dead content that can be skipped because there are easier items to obtain that will be stronger. Also, anyone who had a neb in their equipment and flamed it afterwards irreversibly lost stats they can't even get with flames on that equipment. You don't plan to do anything about that, either.

    I don't appreciate the authoritarian bit of "we said it's intended, so it's definitely intended, and if you try to argue otherwise even if it makes total sense we'll shove a broomstick up your ass"

    Oh, and now I have to add that several of them are virtually direct equivalents to existing equipment that's, again, much easier to get! And it's still not getting stats! It's a blanket problem that will never be corrected on an item to item basis and nexon doesn't care the slightest about how difficult it is to get or create some of these items. The effort, time, and money spent on these items is void.
    xparasite9
  • PhantomMasterThiefPhantomMasterThief
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    edited July 2018
    Nexon seriously insulted their community. They release a new system and outlined how it would work. Then WE the players follow that information and find out that non-kms items are given TIER ZERO STATS for Eternal Flames. Eternal Flames are supposed to be TIER 4+. Why was this never written or warned of? Why couldn't they implement a flame lock on items to prevent the user from using Powerful/Eternal Flames? This is incompetence and lack of transparency. Nexon could've easily owned up to it and returned the flames used on non-kms gear.

    There is no such thing as a "Tier Zero or 0 for flames", non-boss (w/e that means) equips can get anywhere between 1~5 Tiers and 1~4 lines
    powerful flames give 1~4, and eternal flames give 2~5 Tiers (on non-boss aka sweetwater, gollux,pensalir)

    On boss equips; such as Absolab and Root Abyss, you will always get 4 lines, and tiers 3~6 with powerful and 4~7 with eternal flames,
    you can still get good stats but it's harder on non-boss equips, and to the person who says nebs were better they were the absolute crap of this game.

    and to the people who are complaining about flames being up to tier 5 on gollux aka non-boss, look at TMS the max tier there is 3 on boss and 2 on non-boss, also with 25 stars coming, a 17-star superior gollux pendant is still better then a 17-star dominator pendant.
    And you can safeguard from 12 ~ 17 Stars.

    JMS doesn't even have Flames at all, just 25 stars, sweetwater and gollux, so stop complaining, i also don't like nexon but complaining all the time isn't the solution either.
  • choozchooz
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    edited July 2018
    Yet I can get better rolls on low level trash than this equipment.
  • PhantomErevePhantomEreve
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    edited July 2018

    There is no such thing as a "Tier Zero or 0 for flames", non-boss (w/e that means) equips can get anywhere between 1~5 Tiers and 1~4 lines
    powerful flames give 1~4, and eternal flames give 2~5 Tiers (on non-boss aka sweetwater, gollux,pensalir)

    Yeah, you probably never flamed your non-kms gear. I got NO STATS from using eternal flames when I was flaming my Gollux and Sweetwater gear. I don't know what to call that if not Tier 0. And who are you to claim it doesn't exist when there have been multiple reported instances of it occurring.

    On boss equips; such as Absolab and Root Abyss, you will always get 4 lines, and tiers 3~6 with powerful and 4~7 with eternal flames,
    you can still get good stats but it's harder on non-boss equips, and to the person who says nebs were better they were the absolute crap of this game.

    Did I ever mention CRA or Absolab items? No. But did Nexon ever clarify ALL classes of items and the effect flames had on each kind? No, not in its entirety like what just happened with non-kms gear. You introduced a tangent that does nothing to address the crux of the issue, which was miscommunication and lying/backtracking.

    and to the people who are complaining about flames being up to tier 5 on gollux aka non-boss, look at TMS the max tier there is 3 on boss and 2 on non-boss, also with 25 stars coming, a 17-star superior gollux pendant is still better than a 17-star dominator pendant.
    And you can safeguard from 12 ~ 17 Stars.

    What-about-ism argument. Global isn't based primarily on TMS, its based on KMS. We were also already expecting 25 stars as it had been announced, that was nothing new. All NexonNA did was push up implementation day, and that is only gonna introduce more problems, due to rushing.

    If we had known the classification of items, we wouldn't have used 500mil Eternal Flames on Gollux Items. I could've just farmed Lvl150 flames.

    JMS doesn't even have Flames at all, just 25 stars, sweetwater and gollux, so stop complaining, i also don't like nexon but complaining all the time isn't the solution either.

    Stop defending miscommunication, lack of transparency, and lack of professionalism. We the players, at least myself, aren't complaining about what was explicitly intentional like CRA/Absolab flame mechanics. But the fact that Zero, and non-KMS weapons are gimmicked, when it wasn't stated in SavageAce's post about Bonus Stats is a problem that NexonNA needs to address, and always had to.


    xparasite9
  • PhantomMasterThiefPhantomMasterThief
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    edited July 2018

    There is no such thing as a "Tier Zero or 0 for flames", non-boss (w/e that means) equips can get anywhere between 1~5 Tiers and 1~4 lines
    powerful flames give 1~4, and eternal flames give 2~5 Tiers (on non-boss aka sweetwater, gollux,pensalir)

    Yeah, you probably never flamed your non-kms gear. I got NO STATS from using eternal flames when I was flaming my Gollux and Sweetwater gear. I don't know what to call that if not Tier 0. And who are you to claim it doesn't exist when there have been multiple reported instances of it occurring.

    On boss equips; such as Absolab and Root Abyss, you will always get 4 lines, and tiers 3~6 with powerful and 4~7 with eternal flames,
    you can still get good stats but it's harder on non-boss equips, and to the person who says nebs were better they were the absolute crap of this game.

    Did I ever mention CRA or Absolab items? No. But did Nexon ever clarify ALL classes of items and the effect flames had on each kind? No, not in its entirety like what just happened with non-kms gear. You introduced a tangent that does nothing to address the crux of the issue, which was miscommunication and lying/backtracking.

    and to the people who are complaining about flames being up to tier 5 on gollux aka non-boss, look at TMS the max tier there is 3 on boss and 2 on non-boss, also with 25 stars coming, a 17-star superior gollux pendant is still better than a 17-star dominator pendant.
    And you can safeguard from 12 ~ 17 Stars.

    What-about-ism argument. Global isn't based primarily on TMS, its based on KMS. We were also already expecting 25 stars as it had been announced, that was nothing new. All NexonNA did was push up implementation day, and that is only gonna introduce more problems, due to rushing.

    If we had known the classification of items, we wouldn't have used 500mil Eternal Flames on Gollux Items. I could've just farmed Lvl150 flames.

    JMS doesn't even have Flames at all, just 25 stars, sweetwater and gollux, so stop complaining, i also don't like nexon but complaining all the time isn't the solution either.

    Stop defending miscommunication, lack of transparency, and lack of professionalism. We the players, at least myself, aren't complaining about what was explicitly intentional like CRA/Absolab flame mechanics. But the fact that Zero, and non-KMS weapons are gimmicked, when it wasn't stated in SavageAce's post about Bonus Stats is a problem that NexonNA needs to address, and always had to.

    There still are no Tier 0 Flames, when using a flame and getting no bonus stats, then you mush have got a: Reduced Level Requirement -XX Level (which is a flame stat but it's shown in white and not green numbers)

    As for zero for the Millionth time: they are non-boss equips in KMS as well (getting only 1~5 tiers and 1~4 lines) BUT the flame stats are counting twice.
    i heard that in gms; zero flame stats only count once (which is a bug)

    TBH; at first when i heard that non-boss equips are limited up to tier 5 i didn't believe that myself, so i searched through kms vids and sites and sadly it's true.

    i myself would love if sweetwater (monocle and tattoo) and gollux would get boss flames (up to tier 7) but if nexon really did because of balance then that's fine, we'll see if transposed tyrants would be able to get 25 stars or not (then we will know if nexon does think of balance or they just wrote that to shut us up.

    Personally i did flame a non-boss equip and got "0" bonus stat lines, i got a level requirement reduction -XX level (which is shown in white and that's why you think you got 0 bonus stats)

    Of course i would love if nexon communicated more with us (About a lot of things, sigh....), and i do feel bad for the people who wasted flames on non-kms equips.

    IMHO only transposed sweetwater from tyrants should have a limit of 15 stars and lower bonus stats, what's the point of giving low stats to sw monocle and tattoo (Which doesn't have a set btw NEXON) while we have the level 160 dark boss accessory set which can get up to tier 7 is beyond me.
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited July 2018
    I do agree that Savage Ace's first memo that introduced the bonus stats and flames should have specifically detailed this; about gollux equips and sweet water ( Zero is another issue), if in fact they are working as intended. If the flames are working as intended on said equips; there would be no reason for this oversight in sharing the information with us.
  • choozchooz
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    edited July 2018
    There's still the matter that they told nobody, everyone wasted their flames, and nobody is being compensated for wasting flames that would have been better used on some pensalirs than something actually difficult to obtain and deserving of the stats it has.

    Here, let's cover the details again:

    Non-KMS items are inferior to KMS items
    We know this because KMS-set non-KMS weapon types aren't getting proper stats.
    It's worse than we're told, because it's not just being treated like regular items, because regular items roll far better stats far more often. I don't have the biggest sample size but between flamed KMS basic gear and equivalent flamed non-KMS gear, I can't squeeze anything decent out of the latter even if I sink a billion into it.
    Flame stats granted from having a nebulite in the slot before the update exceed anything you can roll with your flames and if you flamed them expecting to be able to raise them, you've lost this extra benefit forever.
    We weren't told this would be the case.
    No attempt is being made to connect with us and correct this or compensate us.


    Doesn't that sound like a problem? Or are we reduced to being forced to listen to the emperor about his clothes? Isn't there a reason a whole bunch of people who spent their dozens of eternal and powerful flames on basic equipment and got outmatched by generic drops are complaining pretty much everywhere right now?
  • IcydropIcydrop
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    edited July 2018
    I do agree that Savage Ace's first memo that introduced the bonus stats and flames should have specifically detailed this; about gollux equips and sweet water ( Zero is another issue), if in fact they are working as intended. If the flames are working as intended on said equips; there would be no reason for this oversight in sharing the information with us.

    Yeah I agree, some player transparency would have been helpful, feels like we were left in the dark.