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Lack of balance between classes

crimson24crimson24
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edited October 2018 in Suggestions, Feedback, and Requests
I recently started playing my marksman again and noticed that it loses up to 70% final damage for being to close to an enemy. Hero on the otherhand has nearly 140% final damage and can attack without penalty. Marksman and bowmaster also have buffs that for some reason have negative effects.(reduces def/avoidability). I don't think there is another class in the game that has a buff that actually also hurts the class.(at least not explorer jobs) I am not saying that classes like hero or dark knight should be nerfed but I am saying that classes like marksman should be reworked. There are several other examples of balance issues with the game currently and I am sure by now the devs can see what's wrong. Also it seems that some classes scale way better than others(especially in reboot) The damage bonus given to reboot players should be changed to final damage, I do not get how the devs thought it was ok to give total damage to every single job when it has diminishing returns.
darik

Comments

  • L4d2jpnL4d2jpn
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    edited October 2018
    For everything that you're mentioning about losing in FD you should be gaining in IED. Not as essential in mobbing but utilized in bossing. As for the one about losing avoid, you gain upto 25% crit dmg which is substantial in the overall picture considering you lose a stat which is practically worthless as everything does unavoidable %hp dmg as you approach endgame.

    If you really want to talk about a buff which is also a Nerf at the same exact time then Eunwol/shade's 3rd 5th job I believe actually lowers dps.
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    L4d2jpn wrote: »
    For everything that you're mentioning about losing in FD you should be gaining in IED. Not as essential in mobbing but utilized in bossing. As for the one about losing avoid, you gain upto 25% crit dmg which is substantial in the overall picture considering you lose a stat which is practically worthless as everything does unavoidable %hp dmg as you approach endgame.

    If you really want to talk about a buff which is also a Nerf at the same exact time then Eunwol/shade's 3rd 5th job I believe actually lowers dps.

    The positives marksman gains isn't any better than what any other class receives like hero or drk for example. The difference is marksman has downsides the most other classes do not have. Losing 70% final damage based on distance is a huge disadvantage of the class and makes it much weaker in comparison to many other jobs. When bossing and especially when training you can not always be max distance from mobs you are fighting and lose dps trying to reposition. Marksman's rangefinder should give full final damage regardless of range and should not lose avoid on the skill that gives it crit damage unless they start adding negatives to every other job as well. I really wanted to main a marksman but it is just inferior to jobs like hero, drk, and many others.
  • L4d2jpnL4d2jpn
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    edited October 2018
    For reference.
    https://puu.sh/ybcn0.png

    Also, I saw your other post about secondaries so I fully understand how biased you are.
    YinYangX
  • YinYangXYinYangX
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    edited October 2018
    Thieves' Last Resort.

    Every jobs has pros and cons, if you're going to comment about the cons of the class you main, go do research about all the other jobs.
    Fuhreak
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    YinYangX wrote: »
    Thieves' Last Resort.

    Every jobs has pros and cons, if you're going to comment about the cons of the class you main, go do research about all the other jobs.

    I do not main marksman because it has up to 70% less final damage when it attacks based on distance. I wanted to main marksman but not in its current state. I know plenty about the rest of the jobs in the game, I have leveled nearly all of them to 150+ and many higher than that. Having 70% less final damage based on distance is a huge con that almost no other job in the game has. hero also gets final damage, about 140% final damage and has no downside to the ability. Dark knight is similar with about 100% final damage and 40% crit damage. My point is several other jobs have similar abilities without losing any damage unlike marksman.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited October 2018
    YinYangX wrote: »
    Thieves' Last Resort.

    Every jobs has pros and cons, if you're going to comment about the cons of the class you main, go do research about all the other jobs.
    A thousand times this.
    F/P Mage requires you to place 5+ DoT stacks on an enemy before you can get your full damage from Myst Eruption, one of your main bossing skills.
    Ice/Lightning has to make sure IceStacks are on the enemy for max damage.
    Mihile has to have 5 stacks of royal guard.
    Mechanic requires you to summon as many robots as you possibly can.
    Plenty of classes have similar abilities to Marksman where they lose damage if not used correctly.
    Every class has a weird quirk about them that you need to learn.
    If you don't learn it, you lose out on a ton of damage.
    Marksman is no exception.
    YinYangX
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018
    Each class and skill/skill effects is designed based on their mechanics, naturally a sharp shooting marksman needs distance to gain full advantage. It also makes sense for each class have to sacrifice something to gain something else.

    Get the marksman to 200; and you will change your mind about it.
    YinYangX
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    YinYangX wrote: »
    Thieves' Last Resort.

    Every jobs has pros and cons, if you're going to comment about the cons of the class you main, go do research about all the other jobs.
    A thousand times this.
    F/P Mage requires you to place 5+ DoT stacks on an enemy before you can get your full damage from Myst Eruption, one of your main bossing skills.
    Ice/Lightning has to make sure IceStacks are on the enemy for max damage.
    Mihile has to have 5 stacks of royal guard.
    Mechanic requires you to summon as many robots as you possibly can.
    Plenty of classes have similar abilities to Marksman where they lose damage if not used correctly.
    Every class has a weird quirk about them that you need to learn.
    If you don't learn it, you lose out on a ton of damage.
    Marksman is no exception.

    your examples are not relevant. none of these classes are losing anywhere close to 70% final damage that marksman loses when attacking up close.
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    Each class and skill/skill effects is designed based on their mechanics, naturally a sharp shooting marksman needs distance to gain full advantage. It also makes sense for each class have to sacrifice something to gain something else.

    Get the marksman to 200; and you will change your mind about it.

    splitshot is good but it doesn't make up for the huge loss of damage marksman suffers. gaining damage based on range is a good idea. maybe give it ignore defense based on range. as it is now the class is no where near as strong as powerful classes such as dark knight or hero. they get even more damage and don't need to reposition in order to do good damage.
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018
    Marksman isn't supposed to be on par with sheer str of DrK and Hero.

    Archers get one of the, if not the best 5th job (common) skill; critical reinforce: Seeks out the enemy’s weakness during a critical attack to deal more damage.
    Level 1: MP Cost: 500. Critical Rate can exceed 100% for 30 sec. and Critical Damage is increased by 21% of the Critical Rate. Additional Critical Rate is not applied to Attack Skills. Cooldown: 120 sec.
    Level 25: MP Cost: 500. Critical Rate can exceed 100% for 30 sec. and Critical Damage is increased by 45% of the Critical Rate. Additional Critical Rate is not applied to Attack Skills. Cooldown: 120 sec.

    That skill aside, when you reach end game, the drawbacks of shooting from up close wont be noticed

    (not mine)
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    Marksman isn't supposed to be on par with sheer str of DrK and Hero.

    Archers get one of the, if not the best 5th job (common) skill; critical reinforce: Seeks out the enemy’s weakness during a critical attack to deal more damage.
    Level 1: MP Cost: 500. Critical Rate can exceed 100% for 30 sec. and Critical Damage is increased by 21% of the Critical Rate. Additional Critical Rate is not applied to Attack Skills. Cooldown: 120 sec.
    Level 25: MP Cost: 500. Critical Rate can exceed 100% for 30 sec. and Critical Damage is increased by 45% of the Critical Rate. Additional Critical Rate is not applied to Attack Skills. Cooldown: 120 sec.

    That skill aside, when you reach end game, the drawbacks of shooting from up close wont be noticed


    nice video. I agree that split arrow and the archer 5th job skill are very strong. I disagree with you when you say that marksman is not supposed to be just as strong as hero/drk. I believe that the game is supposed to be balanced and that all the jobs should be around the same strength if they have equivalent gear/funding. rangefinder needs to be changed, it needs to give 70% final damage regardless of range like many other classes get. Make rangefinder give defense ignore based on range. I am currently maining hero and or drk because I like the playstyle of the classes and the ridiculous amounts of final/crit damage they both get from their skills. The only problem with dark knight is that it does not have dark impale on its hyper skills, dark impale should be on its hyper skill upgrades.
  • L4d2jpnL4d2jpn
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    edited October 2018
    crimson24 wrote: »
    nice video. I agree that split arrow and the archer 5th job skill are very strong. I disagree with you when you say that marksman is not supposed to be just as strong as hero/drk. I believe that the game is supposed to be balanced and that all the jobs should be around the same strength if they have equivalent gear/funding. rangefinder needs to be changed, it needs to give 70% final damage regardless of range like many other classes get. Make rangefinder give defense ignore based on range. I am currently maining hero and or drk because I like the playstyle of the classes and the ridiculous amounts of final/crit damage they both get from their skills. The only problem with dark knight is that it does not have dark impale on its hyper skills, dark impale should be on its hyper skill upgrades.

    Funding is the determining factor of how strong a class is, nothing more nothing less. Unless you're a BT/Jett.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited October 2018
    crimson24 wrote: »

    your examples are not relevant. none of these classes are losing anywhere close to 70% final damage that marksman loses when attacking up close.

    You're looking at the glass half empty. You don't "lose 70%" for being up close, you "gain 70%" for being far away.

    My examples are relevant because if they don't use their quirks, they "lose" a ton of damage, just like if marksman doesn't use it, they do too.
    F/P for example, loses 125% final damage on myst eruption if they don't stack DoT first, that's far worse than 70%.
    Consider the fact that Infinity also requires time to build up your damage. When infinity is up, you can easily gain twice your range.
    However it has a 3 minute cooldown. If Marksman wants that 70% damage, all he has to do is move.
    Explorer mages don't have that luxury.
    YinYangXAKradianEdwardRoger
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    crimson24 wrote: »

    your examples are not relevant. none of these classes are losing anywhere close to 70% final damage that marksman loses when attacking up close.

    You're looking at the glass half empty. You don't "lose 70%" for being up close, you "gain 70%" for being far away.

    My examples are relevant because if they don't use their quirks, they "lose" a ton of damage, just like if marksman doesn't use it, they do too.
    F/P for example, loses 125% final damage on myst eruption if they don't stack DoT first, that's far worse than 70%.
    Consider the fact that Infinity also requires time to build up your damage. When infinity is up, you can easily gain twice your range.
    However it has a 3 minute cooldown. If Marksman wants that 70% damage, all he has to do is move.
    Explorer mages don't have that luxury.

    your examples make no sense because that is not how they get most of their damage unlike marksman. I am not going to continue arguing with you because you obviously don't know what your talking about.
  • AKradianAKradian
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    edited October 2018
    Balancing classes doesn't mean making them identical.

    Many classes have things they need to do to maximize DPS. Some, as described above, need to lay down DoT's or summons; some have to jump attack, telecast, block, animation-cancel, or use specific combos; some need to charge up some resource to be able to switch into a more powerful mode for a short time. Each class has its playstyle. Marksman's "gimmick" is that it gains damage from staying away from enemies. Other classes can't even hit enemies from that far away.

    Nexon Korea is doing its best to balance all classes, but they do assume that the class is played as designed. If you keep trying to attack up close as a Marksman, or refuse to constantly telecast as a Battle Mage, or neglect your summons as a Mechanic, then yes, you're going to be doing a lot less damage than your class is intended to do. That doesn't mean the class needs changing. It might mean that you should be playing another class.
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    AKradian wrote: »
    Balancing classes doesn't mean making them identical.

    Many classes have things they need to do to maximize DPS. Some, as described above, need to lay down DoT's or summons; some have to jump attack, telecast, block, animation-cancel, or use specific combos; some need to charge up some resource to be able to switch into a more powerful mode for a short time. Each class has its playstyle. Marksman's "gimmick" is that it gains damage from staying away from enemies. Other classes can't even hit enemies from that far away.

    Nexon Korea is doing its best to balance all classes, but they do assume that the class is played as designed. If you keep trying to attack up close as a Marksman, or refuse to constantly telecast as a Battle Mage, or neglect your summons as a Mechanic, then yes, you're going to be doing a lot less damage than your class is intended to do. That doesn't mean the class needs changing. It might mean that you should be playing another class.

    you are wrong, marksman has the same amount of range as every other ranged class. No class loses up to 70% of its final damage based on range. some classes have different mechanics but nothing like this. I am forced to play a different class(hero/drk) because marksman as it is sucks. That doesn't mean that marksman shouldn't be changed. rangefinder needs to be changed, marksman should have 70% final damage regardless of range, just like explorer mages get, just like explorer thieves get, just like explorer warriors get.
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018
    like I said, when you reach end game, you wont notice the drawback. Not to mention marksman gets one of the highest % dmg skills
  • L4d2jpnL4d2jpn
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    edited October 2018
    crimson24 wrote: »
    you are wrong, marksman has the same amount of range as every other ranged class.

    Correct.
    crimson24 wrote: »
    No class loses up to 70% of its final damage based on range. some classes have different mechanics but nothing like this.

    Mihile's Royal Guard. Resets back to neutral 0 just like if you aren't positioning yourself correctly.

    Royal Guard (Active)
    Soul Shield nullifies enemy attack and counterattacks. Can guard while using this skill.
    Level 1: MP Cost: 20, Become invincible when attacked for 2 sec nullifying attacks and counterattacking for a set time after use. Attack Power increases for 12 sec afterwards. If you guard successfully while in Attack Power increase buff state, counter attack damage, attack range, and Attack Power increases gradually but the time for guarding decreases gradually. Attack Power stacks when guarding consecutively.
    [1st Time]: Max Enemies Hit: 6, Damage: +150% +3% per level, Number of Attacks: 2, Attack Power: +10.
    [2nd Time]: Max Enemies Hit: 7, Damage: 200% +3% per level, Number of Attacks: 3, Attack Power: +10.
    [3rd Time]: Max Enemies Hit: 8, Damage: 250% +3% per level, Number of Attacks: 4, Attack Power: +20.
    crimson24 wrote: »
    I am forced to play a different class(hero/drk) because marksman as it is sucks.

    Sounds like you found your class. People change all the time, you're no different.
    crimson24 wrote: »
    That doesn't mean that marksman shouldn't be changed. rangefinder needs to be changed, marksman should have 70% final damage regardless of range, just like explorer mages get, just like explorer thieves get, just like explorer warriors get.

    As a bishop, my only full uptime FD source is from using bless. If I'm solo, I get a whole 3% FD during training because I'm not using RI as that changes AR to a single target. I don't have 100% upkeep for Infinity and Benediction so I'm not counting those in as there's no need to use that during training.

    Did you know NL's only get 1 FD source and that's a 25%. On top of that they lose (Actual subtraction) of 40% of Quad Throw during Spread Throw in 5th job.

    So no, I don't really understand where you mean explorer mages and thieves get FD.

    By your logic one of the following should happen:
    MM gets the FD regardless of location, but it goes to 25% and then they lose 40% during Split Arrow.
    MM keeps the 70% regardless of range but then all of Hero/DRK's attacks are able to hit full screen wide.

    If all you concern yourself is with visual range then drop MM and stick with hero/drk, but realize that there's more to damage than what you see in number per hit or your visual range.
  • RexaarRexaar
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    edited October 2018
    Dark Knight and Hero may have higher final damage, but if you just compare their main bossing skill, heroes and dark knight need those final damage to keep up with marksman without even using rangefinder.
    Basically, instead of final damage, marksman bossing skill without using rangefinder is around 2.5x more powerful than Hero, 2.5x/1.6x more powerful than Dark Knight.

    Marksman
    Snipe: 730% damage. Number of attacks: 6, Enemy DEF ignored: 20%, Bonus Critical Rate: 100%, 960ms cast speed
    Final Damage sources: 1.7 * 1.2 = 2.04x damage
    Other ignore enemy defense source: 50%, 25%, 5%

    Hero
    Raging Blow: 285% damage. Number of attacks: 6, last 2 hit are critical hits. 780ms cast speed
    Final Damage sources: 1.1 * 2.2 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 3.78x damage.
    Other ignore enemy defense source: 50%

    Dark Knight
    Gungnir Descent: 225% damage. Number of attacks: 12. Enemy DEF ignored 50%. No cooldown when under the effect of final pact or sacrifice, otherwise 8 second cooldown. 780ms cast speed.
    Dark Impale: Damage: 280%. Number of Attacks: 6. 840ms cast speed.
    Final Damage sources: 1.5 * 1.2* 1.3 = 2.34x damage
    Other ignore enemy defense source: 30%
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018
    Rexaar wrote: »
    Dark Knight and Hero may have higher final damage, but if you just compare their main bossing skill, heroes and dark knight need those final damage to keep up with marksman without even using rangefinder. Basically

    Marksman
    Snipe: 730% damage. Number of attacks: 6, Enemy DEF ignored: 20%, Bonus Critical Rate: 100%, 960ms cast speed
    Final Damage sources: 1.7 * 1.2 = 2.04x damage
    Other ignore enemy defense source: 50%, 25%, 5%

    Hero
    Raging Blow: 285% damage. Number of attacks: 6, last 2 hit are critical hits. 780ms cast speed
    Final Damage sources: 1.1 * 2.2 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 3.78x damage.
    Other ignore enemy defense source: 50%

    Dark Knight
    Gungnir Descent: 225% damage. Number of attacks: 12. Enemy DEF ignored 50%. No cooldown when under the effect of final pact or sacrifice, otherwise 8 second cooldown. 780ms cast speed.
    Dark Impale: Damage: 280%. Number of Attacks: 6. 840ms cast speed.
    Final Damage sources: 1.5 * 1.2* 1.3 = 2.34
    Other ignore enemy defense source: 30%

    this guy knows; he's a hero main, seen his youtube videos
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