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Fix Dark Knight and Paladin hyper skill upgrades

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  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited October 2018
    you realize the devs would want solid reasoning as well, they just wont read a suggestion and say " why the hell not"
    You can't deny that his marksman thread started a long conversation about balance issues of Marksman|Hero.
    Regardless if you believe they're there or not. It was heated, it did get a bit personal, but it was conversation regarding balance. I'd say that's good.
    crimson24 wrote: »
    thanks for the feedback. I feel that I did defend my ideas and provided evidence, maybe I can do a better job. I have learned from playing other games that many people on the forums are just going to troll you and disagree with what you say regardless of if your claims are legitimate or not. I made these threads hoping that the devs would read them.

    Sure thing! Thanks for not taking it personally. I just think instead of saying "You don't know what you're talking about" or calling them a troll, humor them.
    Ask yourself why they think what they think, and if there is anything wrong with that line of thinking. Once you get inside their head, it becomes easier to enlighten them.
    When responding to a new piece of evidence, provide new evidence of your own, or shed light on why previous evidence disproves the new.
    In the case that they're trolling, it should be easy enough to defeat the troll's point-of-view and move on.

    This thread for example, gives no evidence why these skills should be changed other than "I'm not sure why it's like this. It isn't on other classes."
    When ACMBlackCipher challenges your idea by saying they're fine, you give a vague example of why, and then question his reasoning.
    When it comes to changing gameplay, you really need to main the class you're suggesting a change for, at minimum be 5th job (with all skill nodes) and have played several hundred hours beyond 5th job. (I'd say level 210 is a good starting place.)
  • ACMBlackCipherACMBlackCipher
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    edited October 2018
    crimson24 wrote: »
    Absolutely not. Final pact buffs are fine as they are. There is no need to remove the buffs for Dark Knight's primary bossing skill + fallback (as final pact and gungnir are linked) in place of Dark Impale. That's buffed by V nodes anyway.

    the final pact buffs are not fine the way they are. the final pact buffs are weak in comparison to the dark impale buffs that should be there. classes that have their mobbing skill on hyper upgrades have big advantage over dark knight/paladin currently. even hero has raging blow on its upgrades. the devs need to be consistent, almost every other class has their mobbing skill on hyper skill upgrades besides paladin and dark knight.

    I have no idea why any dark knight player would want to keep final damage buffs that only work when you prevent yourself from dying and does nothing the rest of the time.

    I know that this has been pointed out to you multiple times in this thread and the MM one (I've followed that thread since it started but felt no reason to say anything since I don't main a MM) but "buffs that should be there" is not only vague, it's entirely unhelpful in terms of balancing since when a class gets balanced multiple aspects of that class are changed at once.

    Here's what we get from the Final Pact hyper that you're suggesting be removed:
    Passive 20% crit chance. This not only helps reach 100% crit, this lets me remove Phantom's link skill in favor of another. Is it minor? Maybe to some, but it also means my potentials need not have lines of %crit chance, nor my legion layout be changed towards increasing crit chance.

    Dark Impale is, as I said, buffed by V nodes. No one needs DI buffed prior to 5th job. If you do, you need to increase your range by gearing. Dark Knight's primary role in a party has always been as a damage tank and secondary DPS. This means that the more damage (crit damage) you can deal during your first life (before final pact) the more valuable you are to the party.

    Even solo, Crit damage is essential for higher tier bosses. It's a great buff all around and not necessary at all to remove in favor of DI buffs. Your focus on mobbing is so narrow that you're ignoring the bossing aspects of the classes.
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    crimson24 wrote: »
    Absolutely not. Final pact buffs are fine as they are. There is no need to remove the buffs for Dark Knight's primary bossing skill + fallback (as final pact and gungnir are linked) in place of Dark Impale. That's buffed by V nodes anyway.

    the final pact buffs are not fine the way they are. the final pact buffs are weak in comparison to the dark impale buffs that should be there. classes that have their mobbing skill on hyper upgrades have big advantage over dark knight/paladin currently. even hero has raging blow on its upgrades. the devs need to be consistent, almost every other class has their mobbing skill on hyper skill upgrades besides paladin and dark knight.

    I have no idea why any dark knight player would want to keep final damage buffs that only work when you prevent yourself from dying and does nothing the rest of the time.

    I know that this has been pointed out to you multiple times in this thread and the MM one (I've followed that thread since it started but felt no reason to say anything since I don't main a MM) but "buffs that should be there" is not only vague, it's entirely unhelpful in terms of balancing since when a class gets balanced multiple aspects of that class are changed at once.

    Here's what we get from the Final Pact hyper that you're suggesting be removed:
    Passive 20% crit chance. This not only helps reach 100% crit, this lets me remove Phantom's link skill in favor of another. Is it minor? Maybe to some, but it also means my potentials need not have lines of %crit chance, nor my legion layout be changed towards increasing crit chance.

    Dark Impale is, as I said, buffed by V nodes. No one needs DI buffed prior to 5th job. If you do, you need to increase your range by gearing. Dark Knight's primary role in a party has always been as a damage tank and secondary DPS. This means that the more damage (crit damage) you can deal during your first life (before final pact) the more valuable you are to the party.

    Even solo, Crit damage is essential for higher tier bosses. It's a great buff all around and not necessary at all to remove in favor of DI buffs. Your focus on mobbing is so narrow that you're ignoring the bossing aspects of the classes.

    I think that all classes should have their mobbing skill on hyper skill upgrades. Dark knight can easily still get to 100% crit rate even without the current hyper skill upgrade.(it still would have 40% base) you don't need to cube for crit rate on dark knight even without the hyper skill and can still have 100%. I believe that a stronger dark impale is more important than not using the phantom link or not using your legion. having the crit rate removed and having a stronger dark impale wouldn't hurt your ability to boss, it would probably help because you would still have 100% crit and a stronger ability.

    dark impale is boosted by nodes but so are every other jobs main attacking skills. the difference is they also get 20% reinforce and a lot of the time 1+hit.

    dark knight base crit rate 40%
    marksman/night lord legion 3%
    phantom link skill 15%
    beast tamer link skill 7%
    decent sharp eyes 10%
    hyper stat 15%
    inner ability 10%
    100% crit rate

    and this is without even using your legion slots for crit rate.

    assuming you can get crit rate on the 3rd line of inner ability.(not sure it's worth on second line but even that is a better option than cubing for crit rate)
  • ACMBlackCipherACMBlackCipher
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    edited October 2018
    I think that all classes should have their mobbing skill on hyper skill upgrades.

    There it is. Right there. Normalizing all the classes is a lazy way to add hyper skills to classes. Attack skills are not all that are important to classes. STOP trying to make all classes the exact same.
    Dark knight can easily still get to 100% crit rate even without the current hyper skill upgrade.(it still would have 40% base) you don't need to cube for crit rate on dark knight even without the hyper skill and can still have 100%.

    dark knight base crit rate 40%
    marksman/night lord legion 3%
    phantom link skill 15%
    beast tamer link skill 7%
    decent sharp eyes 10%
    hyper stat 15%
    inner ability 10%
    100% crit rate

    and this is without even using your legion slots for crit rate.

    assuming you can get crit rate on the 3rd line of inner ability.(not sure it's worth on second line but even that is a better option than cubing for crit rate)

    Assume you don't cube at all for %crit, okay. Not everyone is going to use the 3% crit increase for legion. That would imply they want to bother getting MM of NL to level for legion. For a player that has no interest beyond playing one or two characters, this is not a useful source. Especially considering limited legion slots I'd rather put +stat or other increases in my legion instead. Phantom link skill is again, something I would rather replace. With a limit of 12 link skills per character, there are so many other links (damage, stat, health, boss, crit damage) that are more useful than phantom. Resistance link for invincibility is especially useful on revive for Hard bosses. Hyperstat for crit is a waste over primary stat, crit damage, boss, PDR and damage. No one will spend time getting 10% IA on a DrK until they get Attack speed +1 on first line and 38% buff duration on second line. This essentially means we not only are able to break hard speed cap, but Sacrifice can be active pretty much constantly.
    I believe that a stronger dark impale is more important than not using the phantom link or not using your legion. having the crit rate removed and having a stronger dark impale wouldn't hurt your ability to boss, it would probably help because you would still have 100% crit and a stronger ability.

    dark impale is boosted by nodes but so are every other jobs main attacking skills. the difference is they also get 20% reinforce and a lot of the time 1+hit.

    You say that but you still have not given a specific change to Dark Impale that you believe is oh-so necessary. Removing 20% crit absolutely hurts bossing because you would have to sacrifice other sources of range just to reach 100% crit.
    Final Pact is not an attacking skill so is not affected by V nodes.
    Gungnir. Is. For. Bossing. Not. Dark. Impale. Even buffed, I'm not using DI for bosses. I'm using Gungnir with Sacrifice until I take fatal damage, at which point Final Pact activates and I spam Gungnir some more.
    A stronger DI has no impact on the class in the later stages. or even once you max it. If your range/damage is too low, inflating damage is not the way to go. Gear up.

  • L4d2jpnL4d2jpn
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    edited October 2018
    crimson24 wrote: »
    ive played these classes for hundreds of hours what are you talking about. based on your post you don't seem to know much about any of these classes. I don't expect yourself or most people to really know most classes because most people haven't played nearly all of them like I have. The problem I have with you is that you obviously don't know what your talking about yet you tell me i'm wrong when ive been playing the classes I have discussed at a high level for many years.

    If you've played these classes for 100's of hours (which is arguably not enough to "master" but should be enough to understand their uniqueness) and you're still trying to make every class like each other then this game isn't for you.

    The whole thing that makes DrK unique is it's ability to force 0 CD on their main 1v1/bossing skill whether it's by Sac or through death.

    Removing 20% on a main bossing skill and adding it to mobbing is the biggest waste when you consider that as long as you keep up with the funding most mobs will be 1-2 shot. The reason why Raging Blow gets the hypers to it is because it's the only new attack they get comboed with the fact that Enrage allows it to become a 1v1 skill.

    That said, Hero is the most "default melee" playstyle you'll get in this game. DrK is unique in that they play around with death, Paladin's are also unique in that they get elemental attacks, with all due respect to Hero players but Heroes to me are most boring class when it comes to design. You gain plenty of passive buffs, have stock through orbs that you use to once again buff yourself or debuff enemies all while just spamming one attack.

    If I look at some of your oldest posts, you specifically mention that you want everything to be as basic as possible. Why not just admit to yourself that you like how Heroes play and leave every other class alone OR as someone stated, go try a perma beginner/noblesse/citizen. They're as basic as they come.
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018
    Not to mention Dark Knight gets Beholder Night Shade and Dark Spear, with relatively low cool down, to mob.
  • thrakkesthrakkes
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    edited October 2018
    as L4d2jpn says, Dark Knight bossing main skill is Gungnir. In order to be able spamming the skill, you must have either sacrifice active or being on Final Pact. You will also want % Buff Duration for a high %uptime of Gungnir. That and Mercedes legion grid for lower c/d.

    However, I agree to say DK is in a disadvantage when waiting for c/d, but just for a few seconds. While Hero uses Raging Blow for mobbing and bossing (Enrage buff 1v1). I personnally main a Hero, under same name.
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    you realize the devs would want solid reasoning as well, they just wont read a suggestion and say " why the hell not"
    You can't deny that his marksman thread started a long conversation about balance issues of Marksman|Hero.
    Regardless if you believe they're there or not. It was heated, it did get a bit personal, but it was conversation regarding balance. I'd say that's good.
    crimson24 wrote: »
    thanks for the feedback. I feel that I did defend my ideas and provided evidence, maybe I can do a better job. I have learned from playing other games that many people on the forums are just going to troll you and disagree with what you say regardless of if your claims are legitimate or not. I made these threads hoping that the devs would read them.

    Sure thing! Thanks for not taking it personally. I just think instead of saying "You don't know what you're talking about" or calling them a troll, humor them.
    Ask yourself why they think what they think, and if there is anything wrong with that line of thinking. Once you get inside their head, it becomes easier to enlighten them.
    When responding to a new piece of evidence, provide new evidence of your own, or shed light on why previous evidence disproves the new.
    In the case that they're trolling, it should be easy enough to defeat the troll's point-of-view and move on.

    This thread for example, gives no evidence why these skills should be changed other than "I'm not sure why it's like this. It isn't on other classes."
    When ACMBlackCipher challenges your idea by saying they're fine, you give a vague example of why, and then question his reasoning.
    When it comes to changing gameplay, you really need to main the class you're suggesting a change for, at minimum be 5th job (with all skill nodes) and have played several hundred hours beyond 5th job. (I'd say level 210 is a good starting place.)

    do you see these post? even when i prove them wrong they respond by telling me I am trying to make classes the same or that they are too lazy to make a lv 140 legion character...

    having the ability to buff your main mobbing skill through hyper skills like most other classes in the game is not making classes the same. anyone who says this clearly has no idea what they are talking about. the actual abilities themselves are what make classes different not their ability to buff their skills through hypers.
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018
    You haven't proven anything.

    All you've given as supporting evidence is " I've played for 10+ years" ( so you must know what youre talking about right?)
    and that your "feelings" are usually "right" (says who?)

    I believe it's as ACMBlackCipher said, you just need to gear up.

    All the classes you've mentioned need to be changed because of one thing or another, I do well with. So maybe it's just you with the issue, not the classes.

    Without any evidence or reasoning behind your ideas, why should the community support you let alone the developers listen to you.
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018


    Here's a dark knight mobbing at esfera
    Kobe from KMS
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018


    Here's a dark knight mobbing at esfera
    Kobe from KMS

    just about every class can kill mobs with good enough gear, that's not the point.
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018
    The point is get better gear

    Youre asking for passives that helps with bossing which end game dark knights are about, just so you feel like you have better mobbing potential.

    What about all the actual dark knight mains that like the skills as they are now?
  • UserRedUserRed
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    edited October 2018
    You said earlier that you should not have to compensate for any major shortcomings in a class. If no class had no shortcomings to it, then every class would be boring since they would all have equal amounts of support, damage, and survivability. Imagine if a Bishop did as much damage as a Blaster without needing to combo. Bishop would instantly become the most overpowered class in the game and lose its uniqueness at the same time, which is being primarily a support class.

    The point of having different classes is that they all have strengths and weaknesses. For example Night Lord trades survivability for insane burst DPS, Corsair trades burst potential for great mobbing (though that will change with the 3rd V), and Dark Knight trades having the crazy damage of Hero for being able to survive longer with Final Pact.
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    You haven't proven anything.

    All you've given as supporting evidence is " I've played for 10+ years" ( so you must know what youre talking about right?)
    and that your "feelings" are usually "right" (says who?)

    I believe it's as ACMBlackCipher said, you just need to gear up.

    All the classes you've mentioned need to be changed because of one thing or another, I do well with. So maybe it's just you with the issue, not the classes.

    Without any evidence or reasoning behind your ideas, why should the community support you let alone the developers listen to you.

    you can't be serious... I literally just proved that dark knight does not need its final pact hyper skill upgrades and that it would be better for dark impale to take its place. I do well with these classes too, what's your point? I didn't say that these classes are impossible to do well with... I said that they could and should be improved by removing final pact from hyper skill upgrades and adding dark impale.(its only fair considering most of the other jobs in the game have their mobbing skill on hyper skill upgrades) I doubt the developers think the same way as the players trolling me on the forums but I could be wrong.
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    UserRed wrote: »
    You said earlier that you should not have to compensate for any major shortcomings in a class. If no class had no shortcomings to it, then every class would be boring since they would all have equal amounts of support, damage, and survivability. Imagine if a Bishop did as much damage as a Blaster without needing to combo. Bishop would instantly become the most overpowered class in the game and lose its uniqueness at the same time, which is being primarily a support class.

    The point of having different classes is that they all have strengths and weaknesses. For example Night Lord trades survivability for insane burst DPS, Corsair trades burst potential for great mobbing (though that will change with the 3rd V), and Dark Knight trades having the crazy damage of Hero for being able to survive longer with Final Pact.

    giving dark knight and paladin their mobbing skill on their hyper skill upgrades is just making things fair. Most other jobs in the game already have their mobbing skills on their hyper skill upgrades, have these classes lost their uniqueness?(no) Are these classes the same now too?(no obviously)

    giving dark knight dark and paladin better hyper skill upgrades like most other jobs have isn't going to make that big of a difference and will not change their roles.(but the classes would have slightly better mobbing ability)
  • DarkPassengerDarkPassenger
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    edited October 2018
    crimson24 wrote: »
    You haven't proven anything.

    All you've given as supporting evidence is " I've played for 10+ years" ( so you must know what youre talking about right?)
    and that your "feelings" are usually "right" (says who?)

    I believe it's as ACMBlackCipher said, you just need to gear up.

    All the classes you've mentioned need to be changed because of one thing or another, I do well with. So maybe it's just you with the issue, not the classes.

    Without any evidence or reasoning behind your ideas, why should the community support you let alone the developers listen to you.

    you can't be serious... I literally just proved that dark knight does not need its final pact hyper skill upgrades and that it would be better for dark impale to take its place. I do well with these classes too, what's your point? I didn't say that these classes are impossible to do well with... I said that they could and should be improved by removing final pact from hyper skill upgrades and adding dark impale.(its only fair considering most of the other jobs in the game have their mobbing skill on hyper skill upgrades) I doubt the developers think the same way as the players trolling me on the forums but I could be wrong.

    Where is the proof? and dont say in the thread because all youve done is said how you think the class should be. That isnt proof.
    Dismissing opposition as trolling is where your mistake is. thats the coward's way out.

    From thinking rangefinder is what makes marksman a marksman now to dark impale > final pact
    and you think we're the ones trolling?
    the thing isnt just about the crit chance. dark knight's bossing > dark knight's mobbing, who cares about a marginal base power boost to dark impale.

    Final Pact passives; final damage +30% crit chance 20% and number of enemies needed to activate is reduced by 30%, that's tailored to bossing.
    You problem is, youre not thinking long term/end game, youre thinking grinding.

    In addition, night shade explosion, dark spear and beholder impact; 10 10 and 15 second cool down. all mobbing skills. and youre worried over dark impale.

    What are your suggestions for a dark impale passive list; +20-30% dmg, extra strike and extra target? the standard stuff or 20% def ignored? would that really make it any better?
    ArgentUserRed
  • ACMBlackCipherACMBlackCipher
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    edited October 2018
    No, you have not proved anything. PROOF requires EVIDENCE. Hard facts or stats. All you've said is you think adding damage to a mobbing skill is more beneficial than crit rate coming from someone who isn't a DrK MAIN. Frankly, I'm done trying to refute you as far as a polite pointing of evidence goes.

    You claim to have played "100's of hours" for multiple classes, yeah sure anyone can make that claim. ME? I can say that I'm a fairly solid DrK main, 5k+ legion, I've leveled all of my links, played most of the classes and loved some and hated others. Does that mean I know enough about a class to want to change it? No.

    You still have NOT:
    - Pointed out WHAT experience has lead to you believing that this change is necessary
    - Shown any evidence you have played DrK extensively
    - Suggested anything aside from just pushing through the change that you. And ONLY you believe is right.
  • crimson24crimson24
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    edited October 2018
    crimson24 wrote: »
    You haven't proven anything.

    All you've given as supporting evidence is " I've played for 10+ years" ( so you must know what youre talking about right?)
    and that your "feelings" are usually "right" (says who?)

    I believe it's as ACMBlackCipher said, you just need to gear up.

    All the classes you've mentioned need to be changed because of one thing or another, I do well with. So maybe it's just you with the issue, not the classes.

    Without any evidence or reasoning behind your ideas, why should the community support you let alone the developers listen to you.

    you can't be serious... I literally just proved that dark knight does not need its final pact hyper skill upgrades and that it would be better for dark impale to take its place. I do well with these classes too, what's your point? I didn't say that these classes are impossible to do well with... I said that they could and should be improved by removing final pact from hyper skill upgrades and adding dark impale.(its only fair considering most of the other jobs in the game have their mobbing skill on hyper skill upgrades) I doubt the developers think the same way as the players trolling me on the forums but I could be wrong.

    Where is the proof? and dont say in the thread because all youve done is said how you think the class should be. That isnt proof.
    Dismissing opposition as trolling is where your mistake is. thats the coward's way out.

    From thinking rangefinder is what makes marksman a marksman now to dark impale > final pact
    and you think we're the ones trolling?
    the thing isnt just about the crit chance. dark knight's bossing > dark knight's mobbing, who cares about a marginal base power boost to dark impale.

    Final Pact passives; final damage +30% crit chance 20% and number of enemies needed to activate is reduced by 30%, that's tailored to bossing.
    You problem is, youre not thinking long term/end game, youre thinking grinding.

    In addition, night shade explosion, dark spear and beholder impact; 10 10 and 15 second cool down. all mobbing skills. and youre worried over dark impale.

    What are your suggestions for a dark impale passive list; +20-30% dmg, extra strike and extra target? the standard stuff or 20% def ignored? would that really make it any better?

    final pact is up for 40 seconds with a 600 second cooldown which means that the 30% final damage is up less than 10% of the time. I already told you why the crit rate upgrade isn't needed, and the 20% less enemies isn't need because each hit on a boss counts as an enemy.

    I suggest dark impale hyper skill upgrades such as 10-20% reinforce, 1+ hit, and maybe something like 2+ enemies hit or 10-20% defense ignore. I also recommend the same thing for paladin's charge in place of heaven's hammer.
  • OccireOccire
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    edited October 2018
    crimson24 wrote: »
    I also recommend the same thing for paladin's charge in place of heaven's hammer.

    That's not a very good recommendation. Heaven's Hammer has a great deal more utility than charges do. Late game, the charge hypers will ultimately be awful compared to what you'd have to give up with Heaven's Hammer hypers (mostly cooldown cutter). Cooldown cutter is just invaluable, there's a big difference between a 14 second cooldown and a 9 second one. You get more opportunities to clear maps while training, more opportunities to hit bosses who fly up into the air (like Magnus and Damien), and more opportunities to use the super stance effect you get while casting it. An extra line on charges or like 20% more damage isn't worth giving that up. You can get strong enough to OHKO things with charges without those hypers, but you can't replicate the effect of Heaven's Hammer - Cooldown Cutter without sacrificing your hat's potentials, and you'd have to have incredible luck to get a hat that with enough cooldown reduction, again, at the cost of a significant amount of % STR.

    And then, you couldn't sacrifice Threaten hypers, and definitely not Blast, for charge hypers. Honestly, Paladin hypers are just fine as is.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited October 2018
    crimson24 wrote: »
    do you see these post? even when i prove them wrong they respond by telling me I am trying to make classes the same or that they are too lazy to make a lv 140 legion character...

    having the ability to buff your main mobbing skill through hyper skills like most other classes in the game is not making classes the same. anyone who says this clearly has no idea what they are talking about. the actual abilities themselves are what make classes different not their ability to buff their skills through hypers.

    If you feel like you've proven something, and you have no further evidence, then just stop and wait until new evidence arises or someone else brings something to the table.
    Don't "stoop to their level" just because they don't see your point of view or agree with it. Be the bigger man.
    The post where you actually show numbers, is the kind of post you need to be making.
    Don't revert back into toxic mode just because someone doesn't agree with you.
    The best way to destroy your own argument, is with your own behavior. Don't let your emotions control your posts.