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Old Maplestory, Going forward!

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  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited August 2019
    @Bulbasaur I've said in the past as well that I would like to see MapleStory abandon these super high numbers for smaller scale damage.
    This would make incredibly good gear only give slight advantage instead of being depended on entirely.
    IE: Bosses would be skill based for the most part, with good gear allowing you more wiggle room to suck.
    There are plenty of MMOs that currently work like this, alllowing you to develop a full kit for your character without much commitment.
    As Akradian said, I don't want to spend months on a character to learn that I hate their 4th job.
    Aggraphine wrote: »
    Why, though, are you seemingly incapable of talking about anything but this? In the five years I've made myself a part of this community, I've never once seen you talk about anything but nostalgia or old maple. Not one single thread started was ever about anything but old maple. It utterly boggles the mind, your fixation on the past. It's so strong that, as far as I've seen, you can't tear yourself away from it for even a moment.

    I don't understand what's so hard about moving on. I've played several games that were ruined by newer patches (imo).
    But I don't go begging on the forums for developers to revert all changes. It's just strange how someone can't move on.
    If you really want that old Maple feel you learn to program and just make your own. Or use other rule breaking options.
    On the other hand, you are more than welcomed to stay if you have something about Old Maplestory that you would like to add. (and for the purposes of this topic, periods after Big bang are also included)

    I think most people are focused on the "Going forward" bit of this thread. Not many people actually care about old Maple.
    That said it did have some better game design that should be revived while we're Going Forward.
  • NeoTokyoDudeNeoTokyoDude
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    edited August 2019
    Oh Aggraphine, my dear, dear Aggraphine.

    I asked you about that questionable comment you made above which appeared to be very obvious bait and yet you claimed innocence but now you have returned again, waving even more bait. If this is your ultimate attack to cause confusion then I think you have succeeded.

    Confusion or not however, I will try to explain as best as I can.

    Nostalgia is not against the rules. Its fine that you feel strongly and have an opinion but its just that, an opinion. I also think its a little suspect that you claim to not understand but have kept links and pictures of past threads, where you could read through them if you really wanted to. So what I get from that is your intentions are probably less than honorable.

    BUT

    I acknowledge the differences in opinions and had no expectation of complete agreement from the start. In other words, my previous offer is still valid. You could go and make a thread to discuss the concept of nostalgia or you could think about playtime with Maplestory and share a story here. Or you could choose to do something else entirely, its all your choice.
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    I think most people are focused on the "Going forward" bit of this thread. Not many people actually care about old Maple.
    That said it did have some better game design that should be revived while we're Going Forward.
    Anything goes, so far as opinions are concerned.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited August 2019
    Nostalgia is not against the rules.

    It's a bit strange however seeing someone who only seems to care about Maple only because of Nostalgia.
    If you have no stake in MapleStory outside of legacy versions, what are you doing here? Move on.
    Nostalgia should be a once in awhile thing, not the only thing.
  • NeoTokyoDudeNeoTokyoDude
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    edited August 2019
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Nostalgia is not against the rules.

    It's a bit strange however seeing someone who only seems to care about Maple only because of Nostalgia.
    If you have no stake in MapleStory outside of legacy versions, what are you doing here? Move on.
    Nostalgia should be a once in awhile thing, not the only thing.

    Protip: You should not listen to users who demonstrate less than good intentions.
    For the sake of argument, even if it were true that there was a person who liked the nostalgia and only the nostalgia of Maplestory it would still not be a crime to do so. According to the rules and regulations of this forum, a player can feel that way if they so choose. I would also advise you to be more careful and not jump to conclusions about others. Its also a little rude to tell someone else to move on when they are breaking no rules.

    I happen to be interested in both the past and future of Maplestoy. When people go trolling, please resist the temptation to jump on the bandwagon.

    (setting the record straight is actually somewhat nostalgic for me, so I thank you for giving me an extra chance to do so)
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited August 2019
    My point still stands. One only need to look at your created threads.
    0LZZMst.png

    Old Maple seems to be the only thing you care about. The only "future" you seem to care about for Maple seems to be moving backwards.
    No, it's not against the rules to talk about old maple, but nobody really seems interested in doing so.
    Most players would rather look forward than backwards. I'm just curious as to why you only seem to look backwards.
    Regardless of rude or not, old maple isn't coming back. It's for the best if you just move on.
  • NeoTokyoDudeNeoTokyoDude
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    edited August 2019
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    My point still stands. One only need to look at your created threads.

    Old Maple seems to be the only thing you care about. The only "future" you seem to care about for Maple seems to be moving backwards.
    No, it's not against the rules to talk about old maple, but nobody really seems interested in doing so.
    Most players would rather look forward than backwards. I'm just curious as to why you only seem to look backwards.
    Regardless of rude or not, old maple isn't coming back. It's for the best if you just move on.

    I am quite open minded on the subject of Maplestory so I am not going to ask you to leave this thread if you don't want to. However even so, since you appeared to attempt to be a bully or something, you can most definitely consider yourself to be reported.

    Its not a matter of being angry, simply that it is important for you to understand the violations you were doing and the nature of those bad things.

    Whats really sad about this is that I like both Old AND New Maplestory. I prefer talking about one more than the other but I guess you already knew that. Oh wait and you tried to do a personal attack on me, ok that is the kind of Maplestory that you like.
  • BulbasaurBulbasaur
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    edited August 2019
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    What's the difference, in terms of level of enjoyment and time invested, between spending months to reach 4th job and spending months (time plus money) to upgrade gear and get high enough DPS to kill a boss? The progression of the game has merely shifted from leveling (unlocking skills, quests, equips, areas etc.) to an equipment-upgrade based approach where the objective is to pass various DPS thresholds for different bosses. Is your assessment of the state of the game based on deriving more satisfaction from being able to access many character skills than from killing bosses?

    As a follow-up, suppose a game allows any casual player to unlock all of their character's abilities in a day. What would then be the follow-up objective of that game? For modern MS1, that objective is to spend months/years to obtain and upgrade equipment to increase one's DPS to be able to kill many endgame bosses. Would it then not be sensible to claim that allowing players to obtain endgame gear more easily and in a much shorter time (days/weeks) make for a much better game based on the rationale that spending less time on another aspect (leveling and unlocking skills) also makes for a much better game? What would be the subsequent follow-up to killing all of this game's bosses?

    Clearly time invested into a goal is lacking as an argument unless either (1) a game that can be effectively clocked in a very short time frame makes for a great game, or (2) goal B taking a lot of time is more enjoyable than goal A taking a lot of time. If spending months/years in "upgrading equipment to kill bosses" is better than "leveling up to unlock new skills/content" I would like to hear your reason why.

    [1] It is a difference in what you consider to be progress and achievement. Everyone has their own set of achievements, which is why a lot of games (including maple) list a whole bunch of different things as achievements (leveling up, killing bosses, exploring maps, finishing quests, collecting chairs, making friends, etc etc)

    [2] It would certainly be sensible to allow players such as myself to get better gear easier. And the option is there: you could spend a lot of money and achieve that. And some players do take advantage of that option, even if a lot of people don't like it.

    EDIT: Specifically on the point of "better game" (forgot to get to and now can't edit), I agree that it would be a better game to me. I've played hundreds of single player indie games where I spend 20 mins to 2 hours to unlock the majority of achievements and then move on to the next thing. For me, I got the enjoyment out of it (story, mechanics, progression) and then moved on. Much like watching a movie.

    [3] Your argument that time invested is moot assumes all achievements are equal. For me, leveling is not an achievement. I prefer to clear dungeons and kill bosses, rather than simply being able to access it. So yes, it is the case that "Goal B (investing time/money towards bossing) taking a lot of time is more enjoyable than goal A (investing time/money towards leveling)".

    [1] See [3].

    [2] I believe, currently, the game requires one to invest at least several months into upgrading their equipment to stand a chance at defeating "mid-tier" bosses, correct me if I'm wrong I quit this game years ago. If you could, say, max your DPS in 2 weeks and kill every boss in this game, that would make for a great game in your opinion? If so, that would be your goal after that? Do you just move on to another game, or do you continue to complete, say, random quests?

    [3] My argument was merely to gauge your reasoning as you indicated that you did not enjoy taking months to reach 4th job. This either meant that you found time to be the critical factor, or the activity itself. I see now it's the activity you did not enjoy. To address the bold statement, leveling and clearing dungeons are not mutually exclusive. A game could have a leveling system from 1 to 100 where different bosses/raids are designed for different level groups, e.g. 2-3 bosses at level 70, 1-2 at level 80, etc. That way, once you reach a certain level milestone with your character, you have the liberty of clearing bosses for your level group. MS1 does not quite work that way, as the dominant factor to being able to clear a boss isn't the fact that you reached the level milestone to do so, it's whether you have enough DPS from equipment enhancing to pass the DPS threshold for that boss. In effect, equipment enhancement acts as a substitute for leveling in this game. A curious question is why do you prefer this equipment enhancement approach over a leveling approach?
    Not a fan of level-based progression or gear-based progression in general. Most games impose some combination of these mechanics, which makes it less skill-based. I'd much prefer a game where I could just pick it up and accomplish all of the goals as long as I had the skills to do so. But it's a different model and requires different monetization strategies (eg: constantly adding new content to keep players interested, which maple definitely isn't about)

    That's possible as long as different stats and skills play different roles. An equipment based approach, as it is currently, effectively ensures no diversity in game mechanics (excluding "dodging hits") due to the concept that damage is king. A leveling based approach does not impose such an extreme restriction.
  • BulbasaurBulbasaur
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    edited August 2019
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    @Bulbasaur I've said in the past as well that I would like to see MapleStory abandon these super high numbers for smaller scale damage.
    This would make incredibly good gear only give slight advantage instead of being depended on entirely.

    That's not possible, given that the game features are already implemented. You cannot, say, severely reduce the effect of Potential, set effects, and gear such as Tyrants, or remove them outright, without causing most remaining players to quit. You cannot implement some scaling mechanism depending on a character's damage range as this will cause the months or years of effort in gear enchanting to become rather fruitless. At this point, devs are using equipment enchantment, specifically damage boosts from such enchantment, as a substitute to leveling in a very extreme way.

    The only way this is possible is... to implement an old Maple server to work with. No matter how much future content you develop, if the backbone of the game revolves around DPS and power creep (supported by in game features such as Potential and gears with high attack attributes), your game mechanics will always remain the same - simplified, linear, no diversity in skills, stats or strategy, no relevancy for party play, etc. (because a large variation in damage overshadows such aspects). An old Maple server, although the game itself is far from perfect, at least has a backbone that you can work with that doesn't have this problem.

    If they DID, however, remove all the problematic features in this game responsible for such a linearization, sure I'd give this game another go but that would involve pissing a lot of people off.
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    As Akradian said, I don't want to spend months on a character to learn that I hate their 4th job.

    Sure, but couldn't you say that about the bosses? If the reward isn't satisfying, what do you do then? To be perfectly clear, I wouldn't want to spend months on a character to realize that 4th job sucked either. However, at the same time devs want people to stay and play their game for at least a few years. How do you go about resolving this dilemma? Do you implement many non-combat or non-leveling/gear progression activities in place of the shortened progression time?
  • TwilightHimeTwilightHime
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    edited August 2019
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    [1] See [3].

    [2] I believe, currently, the game requires one to invest at least several months into upgrading their equipment to stand a chance at defeating "mid-tier" bosses, correct me if I'm wrong I quit this game years ago. If you could, say, max your DPS in 2 weeks and kill every boss in this game, that would make for a great game in your opinion? If so, that would be your goal after that? Do you just move on to another game, or do you continue to complete, say, random quests?

    [3] My argument was merely to gauge your reasoning as you indicated that you did not enjoy taking months to reach 4th job. This either meant that you found time to be the critical factor, or the activity itself. I see now it's the activity you did not enjoy. To address the bold statement, leveling and clearing dungeons are not mutually exclusive. A game could have a leveling system from 1 to 100 where different bosses/raids are designed for different level groups, e.g. 2-3 bosses at level 70, 1-2 at level 80, etc. That way, once you reach a certain level milestone with your character, you have the liberty of clearing bosses for your level group. MS1 does not quite work that way, as the dominant factor to being able to clear a boss isn't the fact that you reached the level milestone to do so, it's whether you have enough DPS from equipment enhancing to pass the DPS threshold for that boss. In effect, equipment enhancement acts as a substitute for leveling in this game. A curious question is why do you prefer this equipment enhancement approach over a leveling approach?

    [4] That's possible as long as different stats and skills play different roles. An equipment based approach, as it is currently, effectively ensures no diversity in game mechanics (excluding "dodging hits") due to the concept that damage is king. A leveling based approach does not impose such an extreme restriction.

    2. I'd probably move on to another game. I might check out random quests here and there because the stories are cute, but that's about it.

    3. My response is based on the game as it is offered, not on potential game mechanics or designs. The amount of grind for levels is beyond my level of patience. With old maple, 3x was my limit. At least with current maple, I can go a bit higher, but my highest char hasn't even hit 220, and I don't think I'll be going past that. At some point, level does not have any significant impact on characters beyond blocking access to further content. At least with equips I have the option of spending money to obtain huge boosts in DPS up to a certain point. Leveling is just hard labor with no real substitutes.

    4. Perhaps. But any significant change in game direction would likely be a slap in the face to players that have invested time and effort in a very specific build. It would be better off as a new game.
  • ShadEightShadEight
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    edited August 2019
    "take off those rose tinted glasses lol"

    "like...it took so long to level bro..."

    "you're just blinded by nostalgia my dude"

    "old maple is gone buddy just move on to the daily grind....."
  • StarryKnightStarryKnight
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    edited August 2019
    I think a lot of people hang on to the past because most players now don't really understand the amount of time and effort that was invested in those characters. You can reach level 200 in a day or two now, certainly less than a week, yet people who leveled pre-bb have characters that are level ~175 that took years to reach that point.

    In my own personal opinion, the worst thing to happen to maple, with respect to old Maple versus now, was the slow but inevitable transition towards being more and more pay to win. There was a time that one of the biggest advantages the cash shop got you was 2x exp coupon, 4hrs at a time.

    I would literally watch movies while basically spamming blizzard at jr newts, day after day. So while I do understand the whole nostalgia thing, its mostly regarding the people and social interactions I had from back in Maples hayday. The game itself, not as much. Spending months spamming blizzard at jr newts for hours at a time, was not something I would call quality entertainment. The grind is still there, mind you, its just been moved from every single level, to mostly just the later levels.

    Still, it is sad to me that someone can literally outlevel my first character in a day or two now, given the years I spent leveling it, and If I were to stand in a crowd of people on channel 1 in Henesys, practically no one would even begin to understand the amount of time and effort that I spent working on that first main character.
  • AcgnoliaAcgnolia
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    edited August 2019
    The only thing I want from old MS, is the old population and the absence of cubes/potential. But what kind of monster would want to go back to the days where 10%/5% per hour AT LOW LEVELS was considered good or when you reached 2nd job advancement the grind was far to overwhelming that you would want to quit.
    WONDERGUY
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited August 2019
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    Sure, but couldn't you say that about the bosses? If the reward isn't satisfying, what do you do then?
    The reward is the fight itself. Plenty of people play games to fight bosses simply because they're hard.
    Optional bosses in a good number of games give subpar, if any, rewards if at all.
    To be perfectly clear, I wouldn't want to spend months on a character to realize that 4th job sucked either. However, at the same time devs want people to stay and play their game for at least a few years. How do you go about resolving this dilemma? Do you implement many non-combat or non-leveling/gear progression activities in place of the shortened progression time?

    You design your game around other things that hold people in place. Such as grinding.
    You can still make equipment barely give any stats and place the major focus on levels.
    If they DID, however, remove all the problematic features in this game responsible for such a linearization, sure I'd give this game another go but that would involve pissing a lot of people off.

    So how is this any different from what they're already doing? I don't know about Korea, but GMS seems to be mostly on the "pissed off" side at this point.
    Your post is also dangerously close to suggesting legacy servers, let's not get this thread locked.
    Still, it is sad to me that someone can literally outlevel my first character in a day or two now, given the years I spent leveling it, and If I were to stand in a crowd of people on channel 1 in Henesys, practically no one would even begin to understand the amount of time and effort that I spent working on that first main character.

    Powercreep is a requirement in basically all MMOs. If you do not provide a way for newer players to catch up to those who have been playing for years;
    Your game will die. I'd rather old players who quit be weak compared to new players if it means new players appear.
    If you're afraid of your character being weak compared to newer people, maybe don't stop playing the game. That's just how MMOs work.
    ShadEight wrote: »
    "like...it took so long to level bro..."
    "old maple is gone buddy just move on to the daily grind....."
    The problem isn't that it took so long to level. The problem is that you were weak as hell for an incredibly long time.
    Not only that, but you had to spend a stupid amount of time just to figure out if you even like your character or not.
    As people have already said in this thread, level 200 is nothing at this point, so you can easily figure out if you like said character or not.
    This is much better game design for a game with a large number of characters.
    The reason it works in single player RPG games is because you usually don't even get to choose your characters.
    If you do have a selection in characters they usually start with their main gimmick and any skills/spells learn are just "Do more damage."
  • YakudleYakudle
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    edited August 2019
    I can only say that despite being called selfish or outright attacked for simply missing good old times despite the flaws the game had back then

    back then what players had to struggle with was way more unique and rewarding than in recent maple
    scrolls chance did make many rage quit, experience gain was so bad lv70+,dying being a punishment , friendships lost after people move on with their lives

    but every time you got stronger with a new item it you worked for was great, unlike today you can buy everything or get carried to get anything you want
    quests had more importance not just the story it rewarded you with either good scrolls, items or nothing but endurance tests like jump quests or killing 999 of certain enemy
    getting to lv30+ felt like an achievement and your character actually changed it felt what you did had impact on your story,
    5job is just hyper skills and boosts for 4job skills you don't feel anything changed in your character in a major way unlike when going from 3rd job to 4th
    party was open for all to try, you had a role in it and was entertaining didn't felt like grind most of the time for many I played with back then
    now is reserved for those who can kill chaos vellum in less than 10mins but still it doesn't matter cause you will get carried anyways

    well I could rant all day about how change is not always better but too lazy


  • BulbasaurBulbasaur
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    edited August 2019
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    [1] See [3].

    [2] I believe, currently, the game requires one to invest at least several months into upgrading their equipment to stand a chance at defeating "mid-tier" bosses, correct me if I'm wrong I quit this game years ago. If you could, say, max your DPS in 2 weeks and kill every boss in this game, that would make for a great game in your opinion? If so, that would be your goal after that? Do you just move on to another game, or do you continue to complete, say, random quests?

    [3] My argument was merely to gauge your reasoning as you indicated that you did not enjoy taking months to reach 4th job. This either meant that you found time to be the critical factor, or the activity itself. I see now it's the activity you did not enjoy. To address the bold statement, leveling and clearing dungeons are not mutually exclusive. A game could have a leveling system from 1 to 100 where different bosses/raids are designed for different level groups, e.g. 2-3 bosses at level 70, 1-2 at level 80, etc. That way, once you reach a certain level milestone with your character, you have the liberty of clearing bosses for your level group. MS1 does not quite work that way, as the dominant factor to being able to clear a boss isn't the fact that you reached the level milestone to do so, it's whether you have enough DPS from equipment enhancing to pass the DPS threshold for that boss. In effect, equipment enhancement acts as a substitute for leveling in this game. A curious question is why do you prefer this equipment enhancement approach over a leveling approach?

    [4] That's possible as long as different stats and skills play different roles. An equipment based approach, as it is currently, effectively ensures no diversity in game mechanics (excluding "dodging hits") due to the concept that damage is king. A leveling based approach does not impose such an extreme restriction.

    2. I'd probably move on to another game. I might check out random quests here and there because the stories are cute, but that's about it.

    3. My response is based on the game as it is offered, not on potential game mechanics or designs. The amount of grind for levels is beyond my level of patience. With old maple, 3x was my limit. At least with current maple, I can go a bit higher, but my highest char hasn't even hit 220, and I don't think I'll be going past that. At some point, level does not have any significant impact on characters beyond blocking access to further content. At least with equips I have the option of spending money to obtain huge boosts in DPS up to a certain point. Leveling is just hard labor with no real substitutes.

    4. Perhaps. But any significant change in game direction would likely be a slap in the face to players that have invested time and effort in a very specific build. It would be better off as a new game.

    [2] If you prefer equipment progression to be much more fast paced, how is that indicative of good game design? If players claimed that fast paced games that allowed them to achieve all their goals in, say, 2-3 months makes for a great game, that makes no sense from a business point of view. Devs want to see players stick around for at least a few years to promote the game and generate revenue. A great game, in this regard, would make a player invest at least several years into the game due to the sheer number of content and achievements to unlock, and the structure of the content itself and the relevant mechanics.

    [3] So then the fact that you prefer equipment based progression over leveling progression hinges on there being a pay-to-win option for the former, therefore modern Maple is the more enjoyable game? So I assume you play on worlds besides Reboot? If we were to allow ridiculous exp boosts to be bought in Cash Shop in a primarily level based progression scheme as it was in old Maple, how would you reevaluate the two progression methods?

    [4] I agree.
  • BulbasaurBulbasaur
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    edited August 2019
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    Sure, but couldn't you say that about the bosses? If the reward isn't satisfying, what do you do then?

    The reward is the fight itself. Plenty of people play games to fight bosses simply because they're hard.
    Optional bosses in a good number of games give subpar, if any, rewards if at all.

    Sure, but one could make the same claim regarding leveling; that the content itself is enjoyable rather than unlocking a new skill. In fact, "fighting bosses" and a grindy leveling scheme aren't mutually exclusive.
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    To be perfectly clear, I wouldn't want to spend months on a character to realize that 4th job sucked either. However, at the same time devs want people to stay and play their game for at least a few years. How do you go about resolving this dilemma? Do you implement many non-combat or non-leveling/gear progression activities in place of the shortened progression time?

    [1] You design your game around other things that hold people in place. Such as grinding.
    [2] You can still make equipment barely give any stats and place the major focus on levels.

    [1] Heavy grinding is the same as spending months on character progression such as reaching 4th job. However, your rationale is that players shouldn't need to spend months doing so. There is clearly a dilemma when financial objectives are considered as any dev would want players to spend at least months and years on their MMO game. The suggestion that devs should focus on having players grind contradicts your previous rationale because focusing on grinding means devoting time to character stat progression.

    [2] That is an old Maple design scheme though.
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    If they DID, however, remove all the problematic features in this game responsible for such a linearization, sure I'd give this game another go but that would involve pissing a lot of people off.

    So how is this any different from what they're already doing? I don't know about Korea, but GMS seems to be mostly on the "pissed off" side at this point.
    Your post is also dangerously close to suggesting legacy servers, let's not get this thread locked.

    It's different because the structure of modern Maple remains unchanged. There are minor changes that annoy people, however many of the features (set effects, Potential, +atk boots, capes, belts, armor, etc.) that linearize the game surely still exist. Were they altered or removed recently?
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Still, it is sad to me that someone can literally outlevel my first character in a day or two now, given the years I spent leveling it, and If I were to stand in a crowd of people on channel 1 in Henesys, practically no one would even begin to understand the amount of time and effort that I spent working on that first main character.

    Powercreep is a requirement in basically all MMOs. If you do not provide a way for newer players to catch up to those who have been playing for years;
    Your game will die. I'd rather old players who quit be weak compared to new players if it means new players appear.
    If you're afraid of your character being weak compared to newer people, maybe don't stop playing the game. That's just how MMOs work.

    That's not quite accurate. In a leveling scheme, new players play with their respective lower level groups and complete content designed for those level groups, not the high level players and their content. Therefore, new players have nobody to compare to as the new players and veterans play completely different content. A leveling scheme helps with this segregation; an equipment upgrading scheme, as it is implemented now, does not. In fact, the main purpose of a leveling scheme is segregation based on character progress.

    Moreover, introducing new power boosting mechanisms ("power creep") also helps veterans gain power which does not solve the issue you are trying to solve. A subsequent consequence would be that the veterans will likely start to complain that the content has become too "easy" which in turn encourages devs to boost the HP/difficulty of the current content/bosses and create newer, more "difficult" bosses due to the increase in power. This only adds to the required investment time for new players to "catch up" to the veterans, thus making the whole process more cumbersome.
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited August 2019
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    [2] That is an old Maple design scheme though.
    The point you're missing is that old Maple requires months to unlock all the skills of your character.
    New Maple still requires plenty of grind after 200, but it gives you your entire kit to work with early.
    I'm perfectly fine with 275 needing years to reach. I'm not fine with having your entire skill set also take years.
    That's not quite accurate. In a leveling scheme, new players play with their respective lower level groups and complete content designed for those level groups, not the high level players and their content. Therefore, new players have nobody to compare to as the new players and veterans play completely different content. A leveling scheme helps with this segregation; an equipment upgrading scheme, as it is implemented now, does not. In fact, the main purpose of a leveling scheme is segregation based on character progress.

    Do you tell new players "Oh well, you're out of luck if you want to play with your friends who've been playing longer than you. Guess you're going to have to play for a few years to catch up" or do you just lower the ceiling so that new players can actually play the game with old players?
    You're missing the point. New players want to play with old players too.
    They shouldn't be forced to go through 2 years of grind to just be able to start playing with old players.
    The point of an MMO should be to create a social network, not segregate people.
    Both equipment based progression and level based (done incorrectly) do this.

  • TwilightHimeTwilightHime
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    edited August 2019
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    [2] If you prefer equipment progression to be much more fast paced, how is that indicative of good game design? If players claimed that fast paced games that allowed them to achieve all their goals in, say, 2-3 months makes for a great game, that makes no sense from a business point of view. Devs want to see players stick around for at least a few years to promote the game and generate revenue. A great game, in this regard, would make a player invest at least several years into the game due to the sheer number of content and achievements to unlock, and the structure of the content itself and the relevant mechanics.

    [3] So then the fact that you prefer equipment based progression over leveling progression hinges on there being a pay-to-win option for the former, therefore modern Maple is the more enjoyable game? So I assume you play on worlds besides Reboot? If we were to allow ridiculous exp boosts to be bought in Cash Shop in a primarily level based progression scheme as it was in old Maple, how would you reevaluate the two progression methods?

    [4] I agree.

    [2] I never said it was indicative of good game design. I just prefer playing games I enjoy. Slow slow leveling in old maple, and current 200+, certainly does not bring me joy, but I do enjoy being able to unlock a good majority of a class' skills without spending 3 months on each class. The OP says in the past, picking a class was such an important decision because you're going to be investing so much time into it. I agree, and I don't think it's good.

    But if you want to argue from a revenue perspective, a number of MOBA's are fast-paced. You don't need to spend weeks or months building your account just to be at an even playing field. Someone that started 10 years ago has no substantial advantage over someone that started 10 days ago, besides having more time to develop their skills. And a lot of these MOBA's are raking in huge amounts of money, and still manage to keep a loyal player-base. Sure there are probably just as many MOBA's that flop, but pacing isn't the problem here.

    Sure, those are vastly different game and hardly comparable when you take into consideration all criteria, but strictly regarding "fast paced != good game design or business model", there are certainly counter-examples for that.

    From my business perspective, a great game is one that makes lots of money, and possibly continues to make lots of money. That's it. Everything else is secondary and just a way of making money (mechanics, branding, player loyalty, team/company environment/values, customer support, etc). I don't need players to invest several years into it; I just need them to spend money. There are people that play the game for years and spend nothing, or make money for themselves by playing it, but it's ok if it encourages others to spend too.

    [3] Whichever allows me to enjoy the game more. The specific implementation is irrelevant to me.

    Sure, but one could make the same claim regarding leveling; that the content itself is enjoyable rather than unlocking a new skill. In fact, "fighting bosses" and a grindy leveling scheme aren't mutually exclusive.

    I like chocolate. It is delicious. But if all I had to eat was chocolate for the next 3 months, I'm probably going to get sick of it. The content is enjoyable, but at some point the appeal disappears. There are certainly many different ways to alleviate the problem, but I have no ideas there.
  • BulbasaurBulbasaur
    Reactions: 915
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    Member
    edited August 2019
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    [2] That is an old Maple design scheme though.
    The point you're missing is that old Maple requires months to unlock all the skills of your character.
    New Maple still requires plenty of grind after 200, but it gives you your entire kit to work with early.
    I'm perfectly fine with 275 needing years to reach. I'm not fine with having your entire skill set also take years.

    You claim that players should be given full or close to full capabilities early on. You also claim that being able to defeat bosses is in itself an enjoyable goal, rather than the reward given. Why do you hold such a view for the latter but not the former? The rewards from the bosses are secondary to the experience of fighting the bosses, yet you treat skill unlocking as the primary goal rather than a secondary to the content that allows your character to grow stronger.

    Let me pose another question. If the devs were to introduce a 6th job beginning level 250, would that make the game worse off compared to if there were no 6th job at all? If they further increased the level cap to 300 and added 7th job beginning 280 as a follow up, would the game be in an even worse state? To generalize the argument, suppose feature A, B, and C were available to new players in an MMORPG, and the devs later decided to add feature D that requires some time devotion to unlock. Would the game be worse off than if it only had A, B, and C? Although this concept in general may not apply to every aspect, that certainly seems to be what you are indicating at least for character progression. If they did implement 6th job at level 250 (and 7th job beginning 280 if they increased the level cap), would you then prefer old Maple to the current Maple, seeing it has not one but now two problematic aspects (time devotion to character stat/skill progression AND high damage variation), or does it also depend on the amount of content?
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    That's not quite accurate. In a leveling scheme, new players play with their respective lower level groups and complete content designed for those level groups, not the high level players and their content. Therefore, new players have nobody to compare to as the new players and veterans play completely different content. A leveling scheme helps with this segregation; an equipment upgrading scheme, as it is implemented now, does not. In fact, the main purpose of a leveling scheme is segregation based on character progress.

    Do you tell new players "Oh well, you're out of luck if you want to play with your friends who've been playing longer than you. Guess you're going to have to play for a few years to catch up" or do you just lower the ceiling so that new players can actually play the game with old players?
    You're missing the point. New players want to play with old players too.
    They shouldn't be forced to go through 2 years of grind to just be able to start playing with old players.
    The point of an MMO should be to create a social network, not segregate people.
    Both equipment based progression and level based (done incorrectly) do this.

    You assume that everyone either wants to play with their friends or not play the game at all (or else be heavily discouraged due to this aspect), or that the majority even share this viewpoint for that matter. Many people enjoy playing through the content with strangers, many even befriend them in-game. Many don't even have IRL friends who play the same game as them. Why would new players want to play with old players if they don't know them? In old Maple and any MMORPG with a leveling scheme, I don't believe anything thinks "I want to play with high level players just because"; there's usually many players in their respective level groups to mutually benefit from.

    The point of an MMORPG is to play the game with other players. This doesn't mean every player should play the exact same content with every other player, especially when "power creep" is involved. Content segregation deals with this issue; it's a means to balance the game mechanics. There are also many other ways that players interact with each other besides combat; take trading for instance. To illustrate the absurdity of your argument, suppose in a game with segregated contents A, B, and C. that, in any given time, there are 1,000 players for each content. Suppose the content is no longer segregated and most players stick with content C. Since the number of concurrent players playing through content C is now approximately 3,000 compared to 1,000. This may be a good thing in your point of view. Now suppose that the game lost a little over 2/3rd of its player count so that there are approximately, say, 900 players remaining that play content C. We have now reached a little below the original player count that played content C when the contents were segregated for different players. Is the game now worse off compared to the original when there were 1,000 players each playing the contents A, B, and C? If yes, you are merely arguing about the number of players that play the game, not the fact that player segregation isn't a good idea. If no, that doesn't make sense from a numerical perspective since you have less players to play with anyway. You'd be insisting that for whatever reason players have some strong desire to play with strangers that are stronger or weaker than them just for the sake of playing with them despite there being plenty of strangers in their same level or content bracket, or else there is no point to MMO gaming.

    Now let's turn our discussion to power creep. Previously you mentioned that this is vital to any MMORPG. At the same time, you want a game where everyone, new players and veterans, plays the same content. Do you understand that, not only does power creep not solve the issue of new players having a hard time of catching up to veterans, it causes large imbalances in the game that destroy most of the game mechanics and simplify the gameplay as a whole? That's what equipment progression does. Moreover, you introduced the aforementioned problem you are trying to solve when you decided not to implement any segregation at all. You also indicated that there shouldn't be a large variation in damage, in contrast to your earlier position on power creep, so that new players effectively don't need to do any catching up. While this works, your model MMO would be that new and old players keep playing through the same set of contents on repeat with little to no actual meaningful "progression". If you unlock all your abilities early and equipment enhancement provides minimal stat boosts, and you kill the bosses you wanted to kill, what additional incentive is there to continue playing? That seems more like an MOBA than traditional MMORPGs.
  • BulbasaurBulbasaur
    Reactions: 915
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    Member
    edited August 2019
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    [2] If you prefer equipment progression to be much more fast paced, how is that indicative of good game design? If players claimed that fast paced games that allowed them to achieve all their goals in, say, 2-3 months makes for a great game, that makes no sense from a business point of view. Devs want to see players stick around for at least a few years to promote the game and generate revenue. A great game, in this regard, would make a player invest at least several years into the game due to the sheer number of content and achievements to unlock, and the structure of the content itself and the relevant mechanics.

    [3] So then the fact that you prefer equipment based progression over leveling progression hinges on there being a pay-to-win option for the former, therefore modern Maple is the more enjoyable game? So I assume you play on worlds besides Reboot? If we were to allow ridiculous exp boosts to be bought in Cash Shop in a primarily level based progression scheme as it was in old Maple, how would you reevaluate the two progression methods?

    [4] I agree.

    [2] I never said it was indicative of good game design. I just prefer playing games I enjoy. Slow slow leveling in old maple, and current 200+, certainly does not bring me joy, but I do enjoy being able to unlock a good majority of a class' skills without spending 3 months on each class. The OP says in the past, picking a class was such an important decision because you're going to be investing so much time into it. I agree, and I don't think it's good.

    But if you want to argue from a revenue perspective, a number of MOBA's are fast-paced. You don't need to spend weeks or months building your account just to be at an even playing field. Someone that started 10 years ago has no substantial advantage over someone that started 10 days ago, besides having more time to develop their skills. And a lot of these MOBA's are raking in huge amounts of money, and still manage to keep a loyal player-base. Sure there are probably just as many MOBA's that flop, but pacing isn't the problem here.

    Sure, those are vastly different game and hardly comparable when you take into consideration all criteria, but strictly regarding "fast paced != good game design or business model", there are certainly counter-examples for that.

    From my business perspective, a great game is one that makes lots of money, and possibly continues to make lots of money. That's it. Everything else is secondary and just a way of making money (mechanics, branding, player loyalty, team/company environment/values, customer support, etc). I don't need players to invest several years into it; I just need them to spend money. There are people that play the game for years and spend nothing, or make money for themselves by playing it, but it's ok if it encourages others to spend too.

    [3] Whichever allows me to enjoy the game more. The specific implementation is irrelevant to me.

    [2] Previously you indicated that you preferred a much more fast paced game, presumably in everything. While this may give you more satisfaction, wouldn't it be better if a game captivated you for several years? That's essentially the point I was trying to highlight. If you play through all the worthwhile content in 1-2 months and move on I would not call it a good game design. In fact, because I finished the MMO game so quickly it wouldn't as be enjoyable because it didn't allow me to stick around and enjoy much more content for at least a few years. I wouldn't be inclined to give it a high rating.

    A well designed leveling scheme does that. Currently, leveling and skill unlocking is fast paced. Equipment enhancement is slow paced and acts as a substitute to the slow pacing of old Maple's leveling curve. Based on this, why is modern Maple more enjoyable for you? Do you simply prefer slower paced equipment progression over slower paced leveling progression? What's the reason for this? Is it solely because modern Maple has pay-to-win options?

    [3] Do you prefer slow leveling or slow equipment progression with a pay-to-win option? Pick one.
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    Sure, but one could make the same claim regarding leveling; that the content itself is enjoyable rather than unlocking a new skill. In fact, "fighting bosses" and a grindy leveling scheme aren't mutually exclusive.

    I like chocolate. It is delicious. But if all I had to eat was chocolate for the next 3 months, I'm probably going to get sick of it. The content is enjoyable, but at some point the appeal disappears. There are certainly many different ways to alleviate the problem, but I have no ideas there.

    The leveling scheme from, say, 30 to 70 shouldn't consist of the same content on repeat. There should be new content, say, every 5-10 levels with different structures. Moreover, for slow paced equipment progression you are essentially doing the same content to obtain upgrading items. Killing the same bosses is also quite repetitive.

    That specific post, however, was to address the content versus reward argument which is not quite related to what you stated here.
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