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Discussion: "Both" Tab in Rankings

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  • SacrixSacrix
    Reactions: 720
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    Member
    edited January 2019
    Absolutely separate the rankings, Reboot levels 2x faster than Regular servers, and has infinitely more reason to farm daily than Regular servers, since their core progression stems from the act.
  • HHG1HHG1
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    edited January 2019
    My thread on this was removed yesterday due to some issue with the comment(s) to it, so I'll use large parts of that to reply to this instead which is why it may come off "preachy" like an OP post would. I also made some clarifications that stemmed from the previous thread.

    ---
    With the level cap increase the race is now on. However, the race is on between Reboot and regular servers because the rankings allow it to be. The default view for our rankings is the "Both" tab, and when searching individual players, the number next to them is also their spot in the "Both" ranking, and not from whichever server-type they play.
    xT7uDfN.jpg
    "Both" should not be the default option, it should not be an option at all.
    Reboot and regular servers have vastly different opportunities, and progress differently. Reboot has a native higher EXP rate than regular servers, and regular servers cannot use 2x coupons past 250 for the race. We can argue all day about which is really faster, about higher mob HP and frenzy availability, about funding routes, about hackers bypassing all this, but in the end the sole fact that they're different should be enough reason.
    There should not be a "Reboot vs regular server" race, because they are not racing together under the same circumstances. The servers are different, and should not be racing against each other on the same ranking page.

    The idea that they should be competing against each other is supported by the fact that the "Both" ranking is available. And so far I have only seen screenshots from the "Both" rankings used to display the progress of the race. This is what people are going by, and it's an incorrect depiction of reality.
    While separating the rankings wouldn't stop the argument entirely, it would make a clear case that they are different and should be compared as such, and not on the same board. I think it would help decrease the toxicity that's been seen between the two playerbases.
    It's not about which server is faster. It's about which player is faster within which realm of possibility. That is what the rankings are.

    I propose we have the KMS ranking system implemented instead.
    5evCTnq.jpg
    As you can see it entirely separates Reboot and regular servers into two different brackets of their own, while including more information such as job advancement (you could search for top perma-assassins for example), fame and guild in the same entry for characters.
    And if you click other worlds it repeats your job specification if you made any.
    I really encourage you to go there (right click translate page) and play around with it. It's much more user friendly, streamlined and informative.

    If there are concerns about which server to make default, you could always make the main page only display these options and load the rankings after you've picked Reboot or regular.
    If I'm really nitpicking I also don't think regular servers should be labelled as "non-reboot". It's like listing "coffee" as "non-latte" on a menu. I understand that the community often refers to it as non-reboot so I can concede this point, but in my opinion the regular server option shouldn't just be "not the other thing".

    They do have a Hall of Fame page where every new 275 gets their spotlight since it's reverse chronological order sorted by the date they got to 275. (non-275 ones are assumed to be by the date they got to 250)
    If you really care about seeing Reboot vs regular you could scroll back through that, but again it's not the default.

    It may be tricky to implement, seeing as we have Europe rankings to consider as well. But I believe it's important, and I believe it is worth it.
    MrSpeedosSam016ZomgNitHiSimon
  • ZomgNitZomgNit
    Reactions: 1,066
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    Member, Private Tester
    edited January 2019
    Mikulover wrote: »
    In KMS a guy in a non-reboot world beat reboot to the first spot of getting 275 so keep the rankings to give the non-reboot guys the fire they need.

    At the start of the 275 race in KMS, a reboot player had the lead by over 2 trillion exp after about 1.5 weeks. Said person eventually stopped training around the mid 260s, and then about 2 weeks after that the regular server players were able to catch up.

    Regardless though, whoever is currently winning or whoever wins in the end isn't relevant to the discussion of whether or not ranks should be separated. They should be separated due to the drastic difference in progression. Even in KMS, where Reboot is a relatively small amount of the total player-base, they separated the rankings because they understand that its essentially a different game, and comparing two things that are so different doesn't provide any value to the people using the rankings.
    CrypticTheizz2020Sam016HHG1SunsetChaosHiSimon
  • MrASAPMrASAP
    Reactions: 320
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    Yes !! I find it un fair that reboot is even considered in the race for 275. They have bonuses that normal servers do not. Front page regular server race “aka, real race”, reboot race back page “aka, handicap race”
  • FuhreakFuhreak
    Reactions: 6,650
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    edited January 2019
    Honestly I can see why people don't like the idea of a default both tab. But why remove it? What do you GAIN out of removing the tab? Just make it default to nothing and allow people to pick which ranks they want to see.
    There's no reason to remove something that some people actually use just because a large majority don't.
    If there were adverse effects on the game I could see this being required, but the rankings has no effect on gameplay.
    SandyLerrow
  • AggraphineAggraphine
    Reactions: 19,365
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    Member
    edited January 2019
    Beef wrote: »
    separate ranking, we could go even further and each world get its own ranking

    I'm reasonably certain each world already has its own rankings.

    More generally to the thread though: if there were a way to have the default ranking view line up with your ingame region selection, that would be the only change I would suggest. And given that region selection is already an account flag of some kind, I don't think it would be too much work to implement this.
    Fuhreak
  • Sam016Sam016
    Reactions: 1,480
    Posts: 57
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    edited January 2019
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Honestly I can see why people don't like the idea of a default both tab. But why remove it? What do you GAIN out of removing the tab? Just make it default to nothing and allow people to pick which ranks they want to see.
    There's no reason to remove something that some people actually use just because a large majority don't.
    If there were adverse effects on the game I could see this being required, but the rankings has no effect on gameplay.

    Ranking does have an effect on players mindset and gameplay.

    The amount of demotivation that it's causing among regular server players is at a very high. Like all the other comments have said in this post, people don't want to be compared to reboot when they are gaining experience at such a huge advantage

    This has made players stop wanting to level up because we cannot keep up on the rankings and the presence of "both" tab will keep showing that no matter what
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited January 2019
    Sam016 wrote: »
    Ranking does have an effect on players mindset and gameplay.

    The amount of demotivation that it's causing among regular server players is at a very high. Like all the other comments have said in this post, people don't want to be compared to reboot when they are gaining experience at such a huge advantage

    This has made players stop wanting to level up because we cannot keep up on the rankings and the presence of "both" tab will keep showing that no matter what

    If we're going to go off of what people's mindset is doing to gameplay, I guess we might as well just remove party play entirely too.
    Ranking affecting a mindset does not mean it affects gameplay. Just as the solo meta does not directly affect party play.
    It merely makes people avoid certain things. Don't blame rankings for something the players are doing to themselves.

    Edit:
    The better comparison would be that you don't remove solo play because of solo meta.
    Just like you don't remove rankings because of player's mindset.
  • Sam016Sam016
    Reactions: 1,480
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    edited January 2019
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Sam016 wrote: »
    Ranking does have an effect on players mindset and gameplay.

    The amount of demotivation that it's causing among regular server players is at a very high. Like all the other comments have said in this post, people don't want to be compared to reboot when they are gaining experience at such a huge advantage

    This has made players stop wanting to level up because we cannot keep up on the rankings and the presence of "both" tab will keep showing that no matter what

    If we're going to go off of what people's mindset is doing to gameplay, I guess we might as well just remove party play entirely too.
    Ranking affecting a mindset does not mean it affects gameplay. Just as the solo meta does not directly affect party play.
    It merely makes people avoid certain things. Don't blame rankings for something the players are doing to themselves.

    Edit:
    The better comparison would be that you don't remove solo play because of solo meta.
    Just like you don't remove rankings because of player's mindset.

    You remove them because of the vast differences between the servers, rankings just shows how big the difference is.

    Go look at rank 1 in reboot now that ranks just updated and then the level of rank 1 in regular server. Level 255 Vs 253 and the gaps going to get bigger and bigger
  • FuhreakFuhreak
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    edited January 2019
    Sam016 wrote: »
    You remove them because of the vast differences between the servers, rankings just shows how big the difference is.

    Go look at rank 1 in reboot now that ranks just updated and then the level of rank 1 in regular server. Level 255 Vs 253 and the gaps going to get bigger and bigger

    Why outright remove extra information? Why not just stop placing it as the default, make it so players have to pick which ranking they want to see?
    Why is this even an issue? Just set no default and move on. There are much more important things going on right now.
    Kanna, Hackers, Lower population, False Bans, Game Breaking Glitches, just to name a few...

    HuskyDM
  • SandyLerrowSandyLerrow
    Reactions: 550
    Posts: 16
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    edited January 2019
    It doesn't really matter if they remove it or leave it just the way it is. Reboot players at this rate has the potential to reach LV. 275 as first server of GMS regardless if the "Both" tab is present or not.
  • SandyLerrowSandyLerrow
    Reactions: 550
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    edited January 2019
    It doesn't really matter if they remove it or leave it just the way it is. Reboot players has the potential to reach LV. 275 as first server of GMS regardless if the "Both" tab. is present or not.
  • OjamaOjama
    Reactions: 840
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    edited January 2019
    It doesn't really matter if they remove it or leave it just the way it is. Reboot players has the potential to reach LV. 275 as first server of GMS regardless if the "Both" tab. is present or not.

    This is why most want it removed, since its obvious to anyone that reboot is getting a lot more exp per hour compared to non-reboot. Also the difference in how reboot and non-reboot work.
    Sam016ZomgNit
  • Sam016Sam016
    Reactions: 1,480
    Posts: 57
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    edited January 2019
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Sam016 wrote: »
    You remove them because of the vast differences between the servers, rankings just shows how big the difference is.

    Go look at rank 1 in reboot now that ranks just updated and then the level of rank 1 in regular server. Level 255 Vs 253 and the gaps going to get bigger and bigger

    Why outright remove extra information? Why not just stop placing it as the default, make it so players have to pick which ranking they want to see?
    Why is this even an issue? Just set no default and move on. There are much more important things going on right now.
    Kanna, Hackers, Lower population, False Bans, Game Breaking Glitches, just to name a few...

    Not sure if you've been paying attention but they have patched a few hacks out, I agree it is a slow process and would like to see it speed up too.

    Ranking seems to be something they can clearly adjust much more quickly than the other situations or this post wouldn't have been posted, people have been asking for rank splits for years now.

    They can just remove both and let the users pick which they want to see
    It doesn't really matter if they remove it or leave it just the way it is. Reboot players has the potential to reach LV. 275 as first server of GMS regardless if the "Both" tab. is present or not.

    That's not the point though is it?
  • CrypticTheiCrypticThei
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    edited January 2019
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Sam016 wrote: »
    If we're going to go off of what people's mindset is doing to gameplay, I guess we might as well just remove party play entirely too.
    Ranking affecting a mindset does not mean it affects gameplay. Just as the solo meta does not directly affect party play.
    It merely makes people avoid certain things. Don't blame rankings for something the players are doing to themselves.

    Edit:
    The better comparison would be that you don't remove solo play because of solo meta.
    Just like you don't remove rankings because of player's mindset.

    Pretty poor analogy... people choose to train solo because it's more efficient. Party play is something that people may find fun still. People don't "choose" to be on combined/split rankings, they're forced into whatever Nexon decides on.

    While party play vs solo is a choice of gameplay and efficiency, combined rankings is not a choice and has an effect on the mindset of non-reboot training and the toxic comparisons from reboot players that feel "superior." Even without toxic comparisons, seeing players that put in equal amounts of time to reach exponentially higher levels is just demoralizing for non-reboot players.
    Sam016
  • FuhreakFuhreak
    Reactions: 6,650
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    edited January 2019
    Pretty poor analogy... people choose to train solo because it's more efficient. Party play is something that people may find fun still. People don't "choose" to be on combined/split rankings, they're forced into whatever Nexon decides on.

    While party play vs solo is a choice of gameplay and efficiency, combined rankings is not a choice and has an effect on the mindset of non-reboot training and the toxic comparisons from reboot players that feel "superior." Even without toxic comparisons, seeing players that put in equal amounts of time to reach exponentially higher levels is just demoralizing for non-reboot players.

    Both ranking is something that people may find fun still.
    People also choose to look at the rankings. I fail to see the point here.
    Sam016 wrote: »
    Not sure if you've been paying attention but they have patched a few hacks out, I agree it is a slow process and would like to see it speed up too.

    Ranking seems to be something they can clearly adjust much more quickly than the other situations or this post wouldn't have been posted, people have been asking for rank splits for years now.

    This is not the issue.
    This is an incredibly small issue that does not directly affect gameplay. It's an extremely small issue that players can ultimately choose to ignore.
    It has no real impact on the game, as it isn't even found within the game itself.
    Meanwhile there are other issues going on that directly impact the game itself, as they are found within the game itself.
    This is not what we should be focusing on right now. It's unlikely Nexon will do anything before someone hits 275 anyway.
  • SandyLerrowSandyLerrow
    Reactions: 550
    Posts: 16
    Member
    edited January 2019
    Sam016 wrote: »
    Fuhreak wrote: »
    Sam016 wrote: »
    You remove them because of the vast differences between the servers, rankings just shows how big the difference is.

    Go look at rank 1 in reboot now that ranks just updated and then the level of rank 1 in regular server. Level 255 Vs 253 and the gaps going to get bigger and bigger

    Why outright remove extra information? Why not just stop placing it as the default, make it so players have to pick which ranking they want to see?
    Why is this even an issue? Just set no default and move on. There are much more important things going on right now.
    Kanna, Hackers, Lower population, False Bans, Game Breaking Glitches, just to name a few...

    Not sure if you've been paying attention but they have patched a few hacks out, I agree it is a slow process and would like to see it speed up too.

    Ranking seems to be something they can clearly adjust much more quickly than the other situations or this post wouldn't have been posted, people have been asking for rank splits for years now.

    They can just remove both and let the users pick which they want to see
    It doesn't really matter if they remove it or leave it just the way it is. Reboot players has the potential to reach LV. 275 as first server of GMS regardless if the "Both" tab. is present or not.

    That's not the point though is it?

    The point I'm trying to make is either leave the current one as it is, or have a ranking system like Korean MapleStory. The fact by only removing the "Both" tab won't likely change much anyways.
    Fuhreak
  • csmpcsmp
    Reactions: 850
    Posts: 28
    Member, Private Tester
    edited January 2019
    I want kms rankings where you can find exactly what class is on top which is good for explorers because you don't know what type of warrior is rank 1, it could be a paladin, or a dk or a hero. just please get kms's ranking system
    Fuhreak
  • WONDERGUYWONDERGUY
    Reactions: 2,960
    Posts: 493
    Member
    edited January 2019
    300px-Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg
    i don't get the point of this "feedback"
    you got reboot,non-reboot and both
    click what you want and ignore rest
    am sorry if sound arrogant but it is what it is


    please nexon let's bring real topics/discussion
    something that we all want and feel for years as ignored when it comes to decisions
    let's start with something that actually makes big change to maplestory
    for example
    bring the kanna-kish talk with us
    autoban system pros/cons how we feel about false bans that happends often



    FuhreakSandyLerrowHuskyDM
  • SunsetChaosSunsetChaos
    Reactions: 1,115
    Posts: 49
    Member
    edited January 2019
    Separate.
    Reboot was never the same as non-Reboot worlds, and was always separated in everything else.
    Sam016