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Check out the v.254 - Midnight Carnival - Ludibrium Patch Notes
here!
Closed Changes to Drop Rate Formula Confirmation
Comments
You are combining his first statement with his Second, then answering it in one swoop. That is vastly unfair and uncharitable to your opponent. A charitable interpretation is that you actually just did not understand the poster, and responded with your perceived confusion. I will explain it for you. He is stating that you wanted a logical explanation and not insults. You were given such in pirateizzy’s second posts. You respond by straw manning and saying his conclusion is irrelevant. That is his first claim.
His second claim is that unfunded players will have to pay more for nodestones because they will have a harder time getting them. Your response combines Statement 1 and 2, and answers neither, while further pushing your point that no one is providing reasonable commentary as to why it hurts players. While this can be okay if you genuinely did not understand what your opponent meant, this comes off as highly demeaning to your opponents when you misrepresent their point so bad that your answer has no bearing on their question. I’m assuming you did not do this on purpose.
The very first argument you presented that actually has some merit behind it. Its only 5 pages in, and 3 pages after you first commented.
While true, we should do some tests ourselves when the patch hits, IF we do get the same type of changes KMS gave, then with the tests they have done, we can conclude that in all likelihood more players would be hurt by these changes would be true. You bring up a good point, but this point is not enough to say that we should be okay with these changes, or that we should not be upset. You are basically stating that the Punishment of Nerf might not be that bad, when people are arguing they would rather NOT receive the punishment, or they would rather circumvent the punishment and have changes that actually HELP the majority of players. You are arguing past each other by using this point and side stepping each other’s arguments.
TLDR: DarkPassenger has been extremely uncharitable at best, or using sophistry at worst against his opponents with no actual intend to debate them honestly.
Would of posted as 1 giant post, but it exceeded character limits
to address other responses from you, 200% drop rate is nothing in my opinion, and Ive also stated thats how much drop rate I have. So when I mentioned "I have no drop rate" Im referring to the 200% which is nothing.
lets see,1. you really cant allude to the notion even if it were sarcastically to lessen the gap between levels, thats now how it works. Theyre doing more so equal opp than equal outcome.
2. If you look around, that is exactly what the reasons were for the changes, to provide a better opportunity for those that dont have the drop gear, in turn it is to make things fair and balanced, from their prespective. ( so this isnt something that I have to prove since Im repeatng what was said by the admin and in the tune up preview)
3. cold and condescending is subjective to what you guys would get offended by. thats just my demeanor. I have no reason to get personal with you guys.
4. is it not nerfing the drop rate making the game more of a grind since you would have to put in more hours?
5. hardcore mapler isnt a term I originated, I wasnt the first to use it. But if you want a definition, it'd be someone that disagrees with the changes, accepts them and makes the best of it. a person that adapts to the changes for better or for worse. and comes out on top.
The mistake youre making in reading my comments is assuming Im stating the comments as a rep for nexon and as truth. In any debate it is important to see all possibilities before making an assumption, and thats what Im doing, is presenting the possibilities.
anything else?
let the record show you skipped over all the insults and personal attacks but went directly for how I said what I said, good job analyzing.
you mention that I claim to speak on nexon's behalf yet, Ive mentioned I dont work for them and I dont speak for them only for myself.
and epic does have a drop rate but only for IA. If drop rate appeared in epic, itd be less than 10 or 10%
With that, newer players tend to play reboot, in reboot it is easy to get drop rate gear. the possible outliers are the new players that choose other worlds.
1. You're once again misunderstanding his use of anology even after i explained it.
2. You keep using the words fair and balanced without defining them. I asked you to.
3. Misrepresenting your opponents through strawman comes off bad regardless of how you want to state that it is your demeanar. Please respond to the charges of strawmanning PirateIzzy's post. I provided you the definition.
4. You claimed it makes the game harder and that we should accept these changes. Key word being should. I disagree that it makes a game harder, but more tedious. You still haven't explained or defined how more time=harder. Stop side stepping.
5. I agree it isn't a term you originated, it is a term you used, that was never in debate. Thank you for giving a definition that states that a hardcore mapler is anyone who accepts changes for better or for worse. So as long as one doesn't quit the game, then by definition everyone is a hardcore player. Belly aching and still playing the game would fall under your definition. So you've been arguing against hardcore maplers this entire time.
Did you actually read my posts, i gave you charitable explanation for each and every post. And i quoted you in full. I am in full acknowledgement you don't work for Nexon. Reread my posts please and give proper responses. I adressed each one of your quotes with a small paragraph, i at least expect some semblence of courtesy as i never called you named, and provided logic and definitions to what i was saying. While you can provide assumption and present them as possibilities, you are using these possibilities as points in your conclusions for your arguements. That's a no-no in debating.
fair and Blanaced are more objective than having to define hardcore mapler, I shouldnt have to provide my definion for fair and balanced, it's like saying define justice or truth, theres only one definition. fair and balance shouldnt be defined through personal opinion of what we deem fair and balanced, but what is universally accepted as fair and balanced.
and no, you specified cold and condescending, thats your interpretation of my personality. their insults were in my way so I had to look through them.
and no, I said "theyre making the game more of a grind until they implement the system to mitigate the drawbacks." while i will agree there is no clear message that this will be the case, it is more of a prediction from reading previous changes, changes ive been part of throughout the 10 years + ive been part of this game
the key phrase would be to accept the changes even though they disagree, thats not whats going on. And if they are going to continue to play, why were they overreacting?
Let the record show that i directly adressed the point in one of my posts while discussing how PirateIzzy called you a bootlicker. I did not deny the insult.
Well that be cool if it did show up in epic tier potential, i specifically said it should appear in unique. Stating methods on how players can more easily get them because getting gear to unique is easier than getting them to legendary, because how easily epic tier gear is obtained. If most new players play reboot, then why the drastic change that hurts REBOOT players the most? And why defend a change that would hurt them more. My suggestion would help everyone in the regular server as well as those in the reboot server at some point while they are getting their gear to legendary. If the concern is the help newer players, as you claimed in one of your posts, then what you presented is illogical.
It doesnt exactly hurt reboot, as the nodestone rate was slightly increased during the override patch which shows up in KMS patch notes but not override patch notes, i got about 50% more nodes than I did before during the 2x events with the same stats and map and drop rate over a few trial runs. and theyre increasing the node rate again and other items, across the board.
I dont deny that seeing drop rate in lower tiers is a good idea, just that the effects would be minimal. It's just the gear that is getting affected, not the multipliers. That lessens the impact of this.
No, by definition as long as they keep playing they are hard core maplers. You defined it as such. You can be unhappy about a change, accept the change, but continue on with it. You are claiming that people who are unhappy with something and accept it at the same time don't exist. I'm calling you out on this. Example: A persons loved one who dies. They can be unhappy that they died, they can accept that they died, and can carry on with their lives in full acknowledgement their dead.
Okay then tell me someone who misrepresents their opponents argument so badly that their answer makes no sense to their opponents original statements is what? If not cold, then please answer that. You still haven't attempted to face my accusation that you strawmanned PirateIzzy.
You claim the definitions are objective, then why are people arguing against that it isn't. Everyone has a notion of what is fair. You have yours, i have mine. There is a textbook definition. That definition might be the same for both of us, and it might be the same that nexon's using. But Fair can be highly subjective. So that's why i ask you define your own definition of it so we can get to a deeper understanding of what you mean by fair.
They can exist, but I dont understand that if theyre going to accept it, why the overreaction. To expand on what I defined hardcore mapler as, someone that doesnt complain about a change they didnt like. or at least welcomes different types of changes.
I go by the dictionary definitions.
where is this strawman I laid upon said person. which post was it?
It wasnt Izzy that mentioned the money spent, it was the other guy.
Even if the KMS data is true, which is true for the individuals that tested it, it is their data, I mentioned even now if you and I have the same drop rate, we wouldnt yield the same results in nodes. drop rate isnt the only factor. Drop rate or not, it is still rng dependent.
thats why I alluded to the quote of not trusting the KMS data wholeheartedly, because thats how we got the dps charts.
http://forums.maplestory.nexon.net/discussion/comment/56587#Comment_56587
My reponses and definition provided are further up on the thread. These are the specific instances of you strawmanning them.
ninja edit:
http://forums.maplestory.nexon.net/discussion/comment/56660#Comment_56660
http://forums.maplestory.nexon.net/discussion/comment/56661#Comment_56661
so you don't have to search for how you strawmanned him with my response
thats it?
Thats usually the case, but he or she even responded that they didnt spend much money into it, I then no longer expanded on that fallacy as you state it is.
thats what you were calling me out on?
So complaining about the changes disqualifies them from being hardcore maplers. Then what about people who complain about those complainers. Are they too disqualified, because if they are real hardcore maplers as you defined they can accept that people have different opinions to these changes and move on, per your definition.
Doesn't change the fact one of the two posts was you strawmanning PirateIzzy, ill go find the other name of the guy so that can say you strawmanned both of them.
Thats what i mentioned in a post before my TLDR, even if we accept what you are saying, you are arguing past your opponent, not arguing what they are stating. And while you are correct to have caution that we do not make hasty generalizations, but no one is claiming them to be fact. We are in acknowledgement that the data points to certain possible truths, and if these truths hold, it spells drastic nerf for everyone.
ok and what will you achieve after you bring the name to attention? that in your words, I strawmanned them? then what happens?
You do understand that the more you try to get me to respond to you, the more Ill look like the bad guy because of your subjective read on my personality. If you have the notion I'm cold and condescending, wouldnt all my answers naturally read as cold and condescending?
why would you want to keep me answering knowing you wont like my answers?
nothing. You brought it to my attention that it wasn't just izzy, so in fairness to you, i figured i should correct my allegations so you can appropriately answer them. I might be debating you, but i should try to be consistent and give my opponent the benefit of the doubt when i can. Read the posts after the ninja edits that have the links to my responses those pots of yours if you havent. I specifically went into how you strawmanned izzy's.
ok and the other was justified, my answer on the money. they mentioned how much they spent. it may or may not be correct, but my assumption that thats the case for them was justified. obviously if they say, no im not mad cause of the money, theres no lie detector here, so one would naturally move on from that
qoutes are getting too long at this point, so i shortened it. So you don't deny that you misrepresented PirateIzzy arguement, hand waved it away, when he actually provided argument toward why the change could be bad. Then you are admitting you argued in bath faith against him, when he brought up logically valid points.
what youre doing would be admirable if this were a proper venue for debate, it's a public forum. Obviously with rules, but I didnt break any rules. I didnt name call, I didnt misrepresent any information, and I didnt impersonate any moderator nor admin. Anything else may been a web I spun but no rules were broken on my part.
had they taken a step back, all I was doing was presenting different possibilities for their reasoning which should be done in any debate, which you claim this was or wasnt after a while.
or would you rather go to a debate and hear a one sided argument where everyone agrees? Itd be different if this were politics or scientific, but it isnt. fallacies of logic, which is in a 101 class as well, I still have my book, dont bind the "debaters" as much as in other categories.
and the responses on my part about the skill changes and the counter measures werent spoken as truths, they were spoken as probability, because whether or not they did plan the skills like that, thats how it seemed to me. since the skills are so familiar.
and the counter measure thing, is because they usually do have counter measures. Nexon doesnt always leave the players hanging, they dont hand us things in silver platters but they dont leave us hanging.
You are correct, you never broke any rules, but this wasn't about the rules. I don't get your hang up with that part. I'm not interested in whether you broke any rules on the forum, I'm not accusing of such things. What i am accusing you is arguing in bad faith against PirateIzzy and possibly others ,since you don't deny you did once. I would like to mention that maybe should take into consideration other peoples full POST instead of summing their entire paragraph into one sentence then clashing with that.
No no, you claim their passive aggressive tactics, now provide the evidence. I went into FULL detail how his post is COMPLETE LOGIC. An insult does not add or detract from a logical argument, only ad hominems do, and he did not do that. It was pure logic. Also Izzy's posts is the first insult you came across, but it also the posts that contains the most logic, so your excuse does not apply to his, maybe to the others but not his. This is a debate for me, doesn't matter it is for you, I'm going to analyze break down your comments, and point out flaws on how they are wrong.
While you are correct fallacies don't equate to being wrong, they do equate to having weak arguments which is what i've been stating throughout the thread. Your dismal of others arguments were fallacies at worst, and simply uncharitable behavior on your part at best. You only really provided 2 arguements for the changes, which i noted, one is barely counted, while the second i commended you for putting forth. But even those arguments are weak. You are correct that fallacies don't bind debaters, but they do bind the arguments people put forth. IF your arguments contain lots of fallacies to support your conclusions, then your conclusions will generally be wrong or weak.